Development and Harvest Yields of Greenhouse Tomatoes in Six Orgnaic Growing Systems

[diggity]

Hey,

I agree with Dave in that Fafard doesn't market to cannabis growers, it seems Fafard spends more money on science and testing to make pretty close to ideal mediums (re: FOF 30 and FOF 70) instead of marketing to growers.

Most growers learn from other cannabis growers who learned from Ed Rosenthal, George Cervantes and other people who don't know what they are talking about.

HTH

You only sort of answered half of my 2 part question. Also now you are claiming fafard does more "science and testing" than other companies to make more "ideal mediums" and in turn are doing less marketing? hmmm. also, promix, sunshine, etc are widely used in the horticultural industry (besides canna), and therefore does not directly market to canna growers,

 

[secondtry]

Why are you posting? You keep trying to make a point without data or figures. It seems like you are just trying to flame.

Fafard uses the NCSU porometer and employs at least two Ph.D.s AFAIK and at least one is a graduate of the NCSU Floraculture Dept. So yes, they spend a lot of money and time on testing, they have been around since the early 1920's I think.

The very fact that promix, et al., use only peat as the base of their mix says everything. Heavily peat based mixes are not ideal. I have already listed the properties of Promix style soilless mixes and it shows why they are inferior.

I won't explain it to you again. Please read this whole thread (maybe a few times) and if you don't agree please show me why you don't agree with data. Your opinion matters so very little if it's not backed up by data and science.

Have a nice day.

 

[secondtry]

Also,

Please fully quote me, or at least quote the whole sentence, don't pick and choose what to quote to misrepresent what I wrote. I used the word "seems", I made no absolute claims:

"it seems Fafard spends more money on science and testing to make pretty close to ideal mediums (re: FOF 30 and FOF 70) instead of marketing to growers."

 

[Dave Coulier]

Hey secondtry, Ive been reading through the links you've provided and this one is a great read for everybody. Ive picked up a couple of things from it, but one thing would seem to be outdated information.

Ammoniacal Nitrogen doesn't cause unwanted growth/stretching. It is phosphorous. Ive an article written by Paul V. Nelson and a couple others. Im sure you remember Paul from being a contributor to the study in this threads title. Here it is http://www.onhort.com/What-Really-Causes-Stretch-article2891

Damn, I just noticed Paul is contributor to the first article as well. The man gets around. The second article is from 2002. Im not sure when the first one was published.

 

[secondtry]

Hey Dave,

Hey secondtry, Ive been reading through the links you've provided and this one is a great read for everybody. Ive picked up a couple of things from it, but one thing would seem to be outdated information.

Yea that's one of my more favorite papers from NCSU Floraculture Dept. That paper has info about perched water table and how it's is always present contrary to what Al at gardenweb claims (AFAIK). I like the representations about container height effecting media properites (e.g., AP, WFP, relative height of perched water table, etc), that is why I suggest growing in containers which are 30-45 cm tall or taller (1-1.5').

Here are some other good papers from NSCU with Paul as co-author:

"PLANT NUTRITION TESTING PROCEDURES: GREENHOUSE SAT’S?"
by Douglas A. Bailey, Paul V. Nelson, and William C. Fonteno

"Substrate pH and Water Quality"
Douglas A. Bailey, Paul V. Nelson, and William C. Fonteno

​

Here is another from NCSU I like:

"ALKALINITY CONTROL FOR IRRIGATION WATER USED IN GREENHOUSES"
Douglas A. Bailey, Associate Professor

​

And here is yet another good paper from Elsevier Science B.V. online journal:

"Soil quality: why and how?"
Douglas L. Karlen, Craig A. Ditzler b, Susan S. Andrews.
Geoderma 114 (2003) 145–156. 2003 Elsevier Science B.V. All rights reserved. doi:10.1016/S0016-7061(03)00039-9

​

Ammoniacal Nitrogen doesn't cause unwanted growth/stretching. It is phosphorous. Ive an article written by Paul V. Nelson and a couple others. Im sure you remember Paul from being a contributor to the study in this threads title. Here it is http://www.onhort.com/What-Really-Causes-Stretch-article2891

Thanks for that link, I have not (yet) read it. Cheers.

Damn, I just noticed Paul is contributor to the first article as well. The man gets around. The second article is from 2002. Im not sure when the first one was published.

Hehe, yup, he and William C. Fonteno are all over the place.

All the best.

 

[Carl Carlson]

Yea that's one of my more favorite papers from NCSU Floraculture Dept. That paper has info about perched water table and how it's is always present contrary to what Al at gardenweb claims (AFAIK).

Al's container soil thread goes over some of the same points as the NSCU people - the importance of container height, etc.

He says the PWT can be eliminated from the bottom of the container by wicking and elevating (i.e. the wick is free-hanging), but it's possible that this will at best reduce the PWT. My experience so far is interesting, but no conclusions yet. I use pots with a lot of drainage holes and what's interesting about the wicks is after water stops draining from the container, there is still some that drips slowly down the wick (s), so it's doing something.

 

[secondtry]

Hey Carl,

I didn't mean to imply that what Al writes is fully inaccurate, I really like his post. However, IMO it's as you mention: "but it's possible that this will at best reduce the PWT."

I too have used wicks to test what Al wrote and I had the same experience as you, however, it's not very practical to use a wick as you describe in growing. That is why I say Al is wrong and there will always be a PWT, albeit it will be short, but it will be there (AFAIK).

All the best

 

[secondtry]

@ All,

I got an email back from the Fafard scientist about the FOF 70, the figures I was told were slightly off, but not by much.


FOF 70:

• AP = 20-22%
• CC = 62-65%
• TP = 82-87%
• BD = 0.29-0.32 g/cm^3 (or by cubic feet 18-20 lb/ft^3)

Testing Media pH:

They promote the PourThru method in the field but the "SMS" tests (visa vis Cornell U.) in the lab.


Particle Sizes:

They are as I stated, 5/8" to 3/8". While that is too big to be ideal it does offer good media properties (besides tortusity).


Media Propeites:

Fafard does not test for CEC, totusity, evapotransportation, OM, etc. And they do not have available water, buffer water or unavailable water values for FOF mixes, however, once I get a tensiometer I can offer those values at CC.



Low EC and High Quality Vermicompost:

I call it vermicompost and not vermicast because the vermicast is thermophillically composted after it is collected from the worm bins.

The brand suggested to me is "Worm Power" and the product is "VC Gold", they are out of Geneseo, NY, USA. I called Worm Power and spoke with the owner, a smart guy and nice too. They have a vermicompost extract which he was telling me about and has me very interested, a self life of around 2 years and a battery of tests in R&D over the past few years. He sells the extract to two large scale farms who use it as the sole source of 'watered in' fertilizers (those which are not included in the soilless media) and both farms have great success according to him. I am ordering his vermicompost and some vermicompost extract.

His worms are feed corn silage and cow manure and the vermicast is then thermophillically composted for to 2 days to kill human pathogens before it is sold. They sell mostly as wholesale but he wants to start selling more retail. He has certifications up the ying-yang for the verimcompost and vermicompost extracts.

Email: t.herlihy@wormpower.net

Website: www.wormpower.net

Tel: I called him on a cell number which is private, and he was quite surprised and kind of put off I have his private cell number...oops, I guess I shouldn't share that with all of you.


HTH

 

[secondtry]

@ CTGuy,

If your reading this PM me, or I guess I could PM you. I mentioned you and your company that you are looking for a source of pathogen free high quality vermicast/vermicompost. He asked me to have you email him if you still need a source of good vermicompost which is assayed and certified to be human pathogen free.

A tip:
Don't mention Elaine or SFI, he doesn't think very highly of her or SFI at all, and that's putting it mildly. He and I have the similar concerns/problems with Elaine and SFI...

All the best

 

[mad librettist]

hah! corn silage eh? that explains why my guys are so nuts for bokashi.

hey, it's great all this info, but I'd like to add some perspective to it. Most people here AFAIK are growing less than 10 plants. The benefits of having the best soil mix ever may not outweigh the cost for someone operating on that scale. It's important when evaluating a product or method to look at cost:benefit as a total picture. I found the costs and benefits of home vermicompcast were all in my favor. If you are doing a personal grow, chances are you should be making your own.

Plenty of successful nurseries have looked at cost:benefit, and stick with promix. They aren't stupid. I am not stupid, and I am trying to do as much as possible in my back yard. instead of looking for the ultimate, I look for what works for me.

You should look for what works for you, and get as close to ideal as makes sense. But don't sweat it. I get the sense from reading some of this that if i have bad tortuosity (waterboarding my plants?) or a perched water table or unequal particle sizes my plants will shrivel up or only make popcorn buds. It's weed. Easy to grow. Strong roots. Versatile and often opportunistic. Just grow!

Re: Elaine, SFI, etc... : this happens in every industry. nothing new under the sun, including the participants' sense that this is something new under the sun. it's the stuff we read about in tabloids and gossip pages.

 

[secondtry]

Worm Power studies info and products:


Independent academic studies using Worm Power and Worm Power Research Grants:
http://www.wormpower.net/worm-castings/content.php?k=27


Worm Power Extract Liquid:
http://www.wormpower.net/worm-castings/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=109


Worm Power Vermicompost:
http://www.wormpower.net/worm-castings/index.php?cPath=25&osCsid=nph6c0c81g262mnoke97qnsi75

 

[secondtry]

hah! corn silage eh? that explains why my guys are so nuts for bokashi.

I am not sure I would make that connection. Silage is fermented with LAB and ground corn silage is much easier for worms to consume (to get the LAB) then wheat bran I assume. I am still against adding bokashi to worm bins, but if it's working for you that's great

hey, it's great all this info, but I'd like to add some perspective to it. Most people here AFAIK are growing less than 10 plants. The benefits of having the best soil mix ever may not outweigh the cost for someone operating on that scale. It's important when evaluating a product or method to look at cost:benefit.

That is why I suggest FOF 30 with 5-10% vermicast or Worm Power vermicompost and 5-10% high quilty compost along with rock powders to increase CEC and Ca-clay-humus aggregate. For 10 plants someone could probably spend less than $100-150 to make media I suggest, I don't think that's too much for most people. And if people re-use soillless mix the cost is even more reasonable.

Plenty of nurseries have done so, and stick with promix. They aren't stupid.

Are you sure? I tend to think most nurseries don't have a clue. No matter who uses promix it's still far from ideal. I have never said Promix can't grow good cannabis, I have used Promix for a long time, but it won't preform anywhere near my mix, and to a lesser degree FOF 30. The biggest factor is the effects upon the soil food web, my mix and FOF 30 support soil food webs better than peat based mixes due to the media properties.

Nor am I for trying to do as much as possible in my back yard, instead of looking for the ultimate, I look for what works for me.

Making the soilless mix I suggest is as simple as making an LC-mix, except for the biochar, and TONS of people make LC-mix. It's not like what I am suggesting is hard to do, it's not at all, it's super easy. The knowledge behind it is confusing and complex but not hte actual usage fo the info.

You should look for what works for you, and get as close to ideal as makes sense. But don't sweat it. It's weed. Easy to grow. Strong roots. Versatile and often opportunistic. Just grow!

Thanks but I don't agree. Why not strive for perfection in EVERY aspect of life?

Re: Elaine, SFI, etc... : this happens in every industry. nothing new under the sun, including the participants' sense that this is something new under the sun.

Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about here, I never wrote what he and I talked about regarding Elaine, if I had you would agree with us I assume. There are many who feel like I do about Elaine, a couple of those people are members here...


All the best

 

[Carl Carlson]

Secondtry, did you find that in containers of the same size, but 30cm minimum height, the perched water table was not reduced for plants in which wicks were used or that the difference was negligible?

 

[mad librettist]

I am not sure I would make that connection. Silage is fermented with LAB and corn silage is much easier for worms to consume (to get the LAB) then wheat bran I assume. I am still against adding bokashi to worm bins, but if it's working for you that's great

bokashi. not bokashi bran. i mean fermented food scraps including meat, cheese, and aliums (all the big no-nos). I got nervous about citrus when we went on a pomelo binge. But the bran also drives them crazy now that you metion it. I'll post a pic of bokashi bran induced orgy. I'm am not sure if they actually prefer to eat it for sustenance, as grit, or if they just like being in it. But they are crazy for it.

Thanks but I don't agree. Why not strive for perfection in EVERY aspect of life?

because it leads to bitter disappointment. wait til you are in Hades to become Tantalus or Sisyphus.

Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about here, I never wrote what he and I talked about regarding Elaine, if I had you would agree with us I assume. There are many who feel like I do about Elaine, a couple of those people are members here...

I don't need to identify the trees to tell you I see a forest.



I did say i wanted to add some perspective. This is for the benefit of anyone reading who just felt overwhelmed and not up to growing because of what was said here. It's not a criticism of your path or anyone else's. It's meant to be hope for the rest.

By "doing everything in my back yard", I mean using local soil. I will be trying this once the snow melts and I hope I am as successful as others like Jaykush. I currently use somehting like LC mix, home vermicastcomp, dolomtite, etc... It's EASY and it works, and I found all the ingredients in my area.

 

[secondtry]

Hey Carl,

I think the PWT was reduced with wick, but I also think the PWT reduction with wick is close to negligible (I have no assay data on that). The taller the container the greater the AP and available water, the TP should increase too (IIRC) and relative PWT (verses height as in media volume) will decrease which means less overall media is below the PWT.

But I want to point out I am not very well educated in all the aspects of PWT, however, what I write is accurate AFAIK. Using taller containers is better for cannabis so the roots can have more room and to increase AP, etc, thus one shouldn't need to use a wick setup which is cumbersome and not really worth it IMO.

Maybe I should invite Al from gardenweb into this thread...I think he would really like this thread and could have good info to offer.

All the best

 

[secondtry]

bokashi. not bokashi bran. i mean fermented food scraps including meat, cheese, and aliums (all the big no-nos). I got nervous about citrus when we went on a pomelo binge. But the bran drives them crazy. I'll post a pic of bokashi bran induced orgy.

Ah, OK, thanks for that. This is one reason why I don't like the term bokashi, it's not desciptive enough. I like "bokashi OM", or the western term silage.

Mad.L wrote:

2ndtry wrote:

Mad.L wrote:

You should look for what works for you, and get as close to ideal as makes sense. But don't sweat it. It's weed. Easy to grow. Strong roots. Versatile and often opportunistic. Just grow!

Thanks but I don't agree. Why not strive for perfection in EVERY aspect of life?

because it leads to bitter disappointment. wait til you are in Hades to become Tantalus or Sisyphus.

Striving for perfection shouldn't lead to disappointment as it's the attempt for perfection that is the real perfection.

Mad.L wrote:

2ndtry Wrote:

Mad.L wrote:

Re: Elaine, SFI, etc... : this happens in every industry. nothing new under the sun, including the participants' sense that this is something new under the sun.

Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about here, I never wrote what he and I talked about regarding Elaine, if I had you would agree with us I assume. There are many who feel like I do about Elaine, a couple of those people are members here...

I don't need to identify the trees to tell you I see a forest.

That's not really an accurate statement with what he and I were discussing, it's about science, not opinion.


Thanks, I appreciate your comments

 

[mad librettist]

ah, secondtry, you must remember, science is a social act like any other, despite its penchant for hubris and sense of omphalosity. look at any field, and you will find conflicts with identical structure. its only the participants who feel special. to observers they are just acting like social hominids.

Can I call my bokashi silage? lol I like it! "Honey, can you chop up the scraps and throw them in the silo?"

Striving for perfection shouldn't lead to disappointment as it's the attempt for perfection that is the real perfection.

I would suggest that perfection is a construct that suspends reality in favor of imagination. It's useful in the creation of values, but useless as a pursuit. It's chasing something that can't exist.

Why not just strive for better, because it gives your life some meaning?

Thus your sticky here is quite useful. I can see what's lacking in my imperfect plans, and though I will not use your medium, your input can help me prepare for possible obstacles, or balance out imperfections a bit..

 

[secondtry]

@ Carl,

I made a typo in one of my posts to you, I meant to write the following with the word "not":
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3225666&postcount=135

But I want to point out I am not very well educated in all the aspects of PWT, however, what I write is accurate AFAIK. Using taller containers is better for cannabis so the roots can have more room and to increase AP, etc, thus one shouldn't need to use a wick setup which is cumbersome and not really worth it IMO.

 

[Dave Coulier]

I thought Id make an update for anyone thinking of ordering mesh screens from Mcmaster. I wrote them last night and told them the problems I had with the 3.5mm screen, and included a couple of pictures showing the waviness & miscut. They've reshipped a new one out today free of charge, and I can throw the other one away now.

Should you order, It wouldn't hurt to email/call and tell them you have to have screens in great shape for what you are using it for. It might eliminate my situation.

 

[secondtry]

Thanks man, I will make sure I mention it when ordering.