New Experimental Organic Hydro Technique!

DrunkenMessiah, this technique caught my attention since i am running a la hempy buckets with hydroton and coco.. it's obvious that my root development is lacking.. would you please explain in detail what particular brand of mychorrhizae spores do you use and what is dilution.. if i understand correct you put 50% coco + 25% earth worm castings and then 12.5% of perlite + 12.5% of vermiculite then add the spores, mix it all up and let it "brew" for couple of weeks in dark place? is it correct? how much of the spores per gallon of final mix? thank you..

plumbum:

First off, most of your assumptions are correct. You've got my medium down perfectly, except I would not recommend 25% wormcastings. I run 25% high-potency organic compost, which is not as strong as wormcastings. I would cut the castings about half-and-half with a good organic soil mix. That mixture should be roughly equivilent to my strong compost. Also, you want the medium to 'brew' in a dark place as you said, but you must take extra steps. Dont mix up the medium and just let it sit in a bucket. You should not mix the medium until your tubs are finished and you are ready to go. Mix it up and toss it into the tubs, bubblers and all, so that it exactly resembles what it will be like when you start running the plants. Go ahead and fill up the resivoir with water and be sure to run the bubblers! This drastically reduces the incubation period and makes absolutely sure that no pathogenic microbes manage to muscle their way in to usurp our desired pro-biotics.

There are a lot of growers on here who are faithful to the Hempy Bucket, which I personally think is a bit of half-assed design. It is part way between a water-efficient wicking tub (which it isn't because it has an open surface) and a medium based drip-style hydro system (which it isn't because it has no oxygen injection). The hempy bucket seems to fall in a middle category, and for the life of me I cannot fathom what advantage it has over ordinary soil growing. It just strikes me as a grow strategy that was based on feelings and personal experience rather than science.

I believe that my bubble bath tubs rectify the design issues of the hempy bucket. My tubs have the advantages of both DWC hydro and organic soil growing while having the disadvantages of neither! So far as I can tell the Hempy Bucket is the exact opposite: It features all the disadvantages of medium growing and drip-style hydro while reaping the benefits of none.

-Ahem- Rant over, on to your question:

First off, mycorrhizae fungus is only half of the micro-life equasion. You also need beneficial bacteria (oxygen-loving AKA aerobic) to drive the bio-reactor that we are trying to create. The fungus can't metabolize everything on its own and needs strong bacteria colonies to team up with. Using only fungal supplements will only get you half way there! We must keep this in mind when shopping for dormant pro-biotics.

The brand of spores is not very important, what matters is the breed of spores contained within. I used to get mine from a company called Hydro Organics (which I always found ironic since this particular product won't actually work in hydro rigs) for about $16 per pound of spores. I would later find out that this is a COMPLETE RIPOFF. The Hydro Organic spores I got contained four species from the Rhizopogon genus, three from the Glomus genus and one from the Pisolithus genus; a respectable collection. However, they contained no dormant bacteria at all. The only way to get some was to buy their heart-breakingly expensive (70$ a pound!!!) complete package. Fuck that. I went with just the fungus and my first organic bubble tub experiment suffered as a result. Happily, the next time I went down to Lowe's home improvement something caught my eye:

It is a product called Bio Tone Starter Plus and it is made by the good people at Espoma. It is a simple organic fert (6-4-5) that contains many goodies like crab/feather meal, greensand, dried guano and other great stuff. On top of that however it contains dormant mycorrhizae spores AND aerobic bacteria! Bio tone has spores from every genus featured in my fancy-pants Hydro Organics stuff and even has some that the pure concentrate didn't! Additionally it features a half-dozen different strains of powerful oxygen-loving bacteria. Win-win baby!

As for your question on dosage:
Because of the incubation period and the general bad-assness of the bubble bath tubs only a very small amount of dormant spores are needed. A teaspoon of mycorrhizae concentrate per tub is PLEANTY. During the incubation the spores will innoculate the medium and create a mycylium network. They reproduce themselves at a dizzying rate which means you don't need many spores to start.

If you use Bio Tone instead (this is what I do and I would heartily recommend it over the concentrated crap) then just add it as you would any organic nute. I use 2 cups of it per 5 gallons of medium, but you may want to use more or less depending on what other nutes you use as well.

Basically, when using the bubble-bath tubs a little bit of dormant pro-biotics goes a loooooong way. Because the tubs create such a perfect environment for the micro life the little buggers reproduce at a simpy mind-boggling rate. It is almost impossible to not use enough.

I am always pleased to see someone else taking interest in my technique. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any more questions. I check into this thread periodically so you will get a timely response from me by just posting in here as well.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

Can you re use the growing medium again after harvest . ?

solarpowered_ca said:

Can you re use the growing medium again after harvest . ?

Click to expand...

Yes, that is actually an interesting process. My organic bubble bath tubs are better suited to re-using their medium than any other grow technique I have yet seen. Allow me to explain:

During harvest (post final flush) you let the plant and medium get very dry before cutting it down. Cut the plant right where it meets the medium and take away the whole thing to hang. Pull out about half of the medium (still dry) and toss in your organic nutes for the next round of vegging. Put the half of the medium back in and mix well. There will be a TON of dead/dying roots, they'll be everywhere. Re-wet the medium and completely refill the resivoir while being sure that the bubblers are still running (they should NEVER shut off) and allow to stew for a week with the lights off. When you come back a week later and run your hand through the medium you will notice that all of the old roots have dissapeared. After the old root-ball dies it is rapidly broken down and consumed by the voracious micro-life along with the new organic nutes you threw in.

Normally left-over rootmass wreaks havoc on growers wanting to re-use their medium. Any dead roots that are allowed to rot on their own will rapidly breed pythium which is the family of pathenogenic microbes commonly known as 'root rot'. This usually makes recycling an organic medium more trouble than it is worth. However, with the organic bubble bath tubs the old roots are rapidly broken down into new nutrients for the next generation of plants! This is one of the most beautiful things about my bubble bath tubs and is yet another advantage that they have over other popular styles of medium-based growing.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

I really like the discussion on this thread. I have heard of people, only through conversation, putting air stones in their hempy buckets. I think the largest benefit your process has is the brewing period of the growing medium itself. Your addition of the bubbler to the incubation period is a great idea that is not used in the natural order of things when people compost. That strong myco-net gives great advantages from being there since day one of the plants growth. That network will help protect against any root born illnesses for the plant as well. I also like the fast decomposition that is allowed in the bubble incubator as well.

I'm considering a way to make a large reservoir for the water and just be able to plug in small pots for a small perpetual setup. I have had discussions of people taking clones into flower straight after they root and keeping the plant in nothing larger than biggulp cups through flowering since the plants stay small, using organic soil as their medium. It came to mind using a biggulp sized container using the same technique as you there could be great benefits to your bubble baths and medium preparation processes. I don't know if that makes sense, I'm a little medicated right now.

great thread.. let's keep it going.. DrunkenMessiah few more questions. i'd like to run a test and see how this system works out.. logically and from my previous experience i am convinced and it's easy to see great benefits of both extra oxygen and strong fungal and bacterial inoculation.. . i started with coco and don't have much experience with soil.. in my test i'm going to run side by side 6x 3 gal buckets of your system next to straight coco with no oxygen, but added beneficials through compost tea.. my question - is it possible to feed salt nutrients or organics is mandatory for system to work? basically does salts kill bennies? should i have high ph as usually used for soil like around 6.5 or i could be close to coco requirements = 6.0.. the reason i am asking it.. if i would be able to feed them the same solution it would drastically simplify the test run.. if organics is only way to go - what organic nutrients do you recommend?
another question.. is it possible to skip brewing process with air.. and mix and replant and just let it catch up on a go? if not what is the minimum time needed from you experience.. in real life environment keeping it in a dark for extended amount of time is very inefficient..

thank you

Mt Toaker said:

I'm considering a way to make a large reservoir for the water and just be able to plug in small pots for a small perpetual setup. I have had discussions of people taking clones into flower straight after they root and keeping the plant in nothing larger than biggulp cups through flowering since the plants stay small, using organic soil as their medium. It came to mind using a biggulp sized container using the same technique as you there could be great benefits to your bubble baths and medium preparation processes. I don't know if that makes sense, I'm a little medicated right now.

Click to expand...

Huzzah! I actually have a preliminary design for this concept. The plans I've made to keep for my own use are rendered with CAD and are too good to share. This is why all of my shared diagrams so far have been MS-Paint rendered. I am happy to share the concept and will portray something clear enough to get the point across; you're on your own for fabrication or any kind of way to execute the concept IRL.

So, I shall be happy to whip you up a little demonstration image, but at the moment its...

..well, tits in the morning frankly so I shan't right now; sadly, you must settle for babbling:

The idea is to have one very large tub. Some kind of short (8-12") and long/wide Rubbermaid tub. Gasket where the lid snaps on to the tub to make it air tightish. Acquire suitable net pots. Cut as many as-close-to-precisely-circular holes identical to the inside rim diameter of the net pots into the lid of the tub as you dare. Plumb the bigass tub just like I do my little ones (this is nice, only one overflow/dump valve necessary for a shitload of plants). Apply an adaquately ludicris amount of air stones to the bottom of the tub. Concieve an elegent way to get a ton of air piped to them. Easiest to get a drill bit the same size as the OD of your main air hose (bigger is better) and the snug fit should be pleanty.

Side note: If you haven't figured out by now, we're trying to keep the tub as 'airtight' as possible. This seems like a retarded aspiration given that we're making so many damn holes in the thing. Its pretty easy, and cost effective, to pump more air in than you need, so go with that and you can overcome a fair bit of leakyness. Still, the better this whole thing holds air pressure the better. Here's why:

You now have one bigass bubble tub that is 'airtight' other than the mass of net-pot-sized holes in the lid. You must now devise a way to screw the netpots elegently into their corresponding holes. Again, it is desirable to keep this fit very snug and 'airtight'. Fill the tub with enough water to bring it up to the overflow valve. Screw in all of your 'airtight' netpots and the water line will rise inside of them. Depending on your chosen geometry (tub depth, net pot height, placement of overflow drain) you will have the net pot partially (less than half?) full of water. Fill the net pots with lava rock or hydroton right up to the water line. Fill the remaining space in the net pots with our previously discussed coco hybrid organic medium in the accepted fashion; leaving 1/2 to 1 inch of space on top for a pure pearlite cap.

If this has somehow made any sense to you, this is very cool. What happens now (if you've taken care to maintain airtight construction) is that the only place for the air pushed in by the bubblers to go is through the medium of all the collective net pots and out through their pearlite surfaces (leaving the majority of any moisture picked up behind). We now have a somewhat halarious number of induvidual microbe-crazy growing envrionments.

This actually has a variety of advantages over the induvidual tub design, but there are limitations as well. You'll never get the allowable root volume per plant (at least medium-wise) as with induvidual tubs. 5 gallons and up is a tall order for a net-pot. Granted, the roots get extra space from wandering out of the net pot and out into the bath. Great, more space, but now we have living roots that are not supported by any medium and therefore the strong fungal life. They will get no 'life line' effect when the medium is dried out. In fact, with roots in the tub I'm not sure you could ever let the water level drop all the way to the bottom for long. Now you have to maintain a permanent bath and so the whole thing ends up a bit more like DWC. The shared bath means that the grow scedule will be rigorous, with very little room for different development speeds between plants. All of these differences are absolutely fine for someone looking to do a more commercial-style sortof 'table' grow. The limited pot size, numerous placement of said pots and overall common-circulation DWC handeling liken the whole setup very well to running clones taken from a single mother under moderate HID lighting in a sort of bigish SOG monstrocity.

This may, or may not be anything like what you where talking about. I think we're on the same wavelength here though. Tell me if that's anything like you where thinking, add some of your ideas and perhaps I will flesh it out later. Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

plumbum said:

great thread.. let's keep it going.. DrunkenMessiah few more questions. i'd like to run a test and see how this system works out.. logically and from my previous experience i am convinced and it's easy to see great benefits of both extra oxygen and strong fungal and bacterial inoculation.. . i started with coco and don't have much experience with soil.. in my test i'm going to run side by side 6x 3 gal buckets of your system next to straight coco with no oxygen, but added beneficials through compost tea.. my question - is it possible to feed salt nutrients or organics is mandatory for system to work? basically does salts kill bennies? should i have high ph as usually used for soil like around 6.5 or i could be close to coco requirements = 6.0.. the reason i am asking it.. if i would be able to feed them the same solution it would drastically simplify the test run.. if organics is only way to go - what organic nutrients do you recommend?
another question.. is it possible to skip brewing process with air.. and mix and replant and just let it catch up on a go? if not what is the minimum time needed from you experience.. in real life environment keeping it in a dark for extended amount of time is very inefficient..

thank you

Click to expand...

Using primarily organic-sourced nutrients in the Bubble Bath Tubs is basically a must. Not only are organics generally more compatible with life, every aspect of the design of the OBBTs is meant to make the grow environment as suitable to beneficial microlife as possible. Not capitalizing on them as much as possible makes the whole pursuit a waste of time.

That said, I've always used some salt ferts in the tubs. Some.

You want to use primarily organics anyway, they're just better and if you're smart they can be more cost-effective. The OBBTs are based on a lot of pre-loading of nutrients, adding them to the soil before the plants ever go in. Usually this is asking for trouble; any kind of volotile substances introduced by nutes would usually slow, halt or kill young sprouts.

The idea is to only pre-load with organics, this is why the incubation goes on. Once again, as we pick apart the different aspects of the OBBT design we find the reason behind a decision is, gasp, SCIENCE!

Those familiar with the life cycle of fungi know the purpose of the mycelium network. For those not familiar:

Fungi go through a sort of 'vegetative' and 'fruiting' stage. During the so-called-veg, the mycelium network is started by the fungal spores and spreads across the suitable consumable organic material it has been inoculated into. During this phase the fungus will pull into its 'body' all of the organic matter that it plans to eat over its entire lifetime. As it takes over, it isn't really 'eating' much of the available energy at all, merely converting it into something suitable for consumption.

After this, a fungus fruits in its own unique way. One of my favorite fungi, Psilocybe Cubensis, must detect light with receptors on probes from the mycelium network. It will then produce a number of 'pins' which grow into the desired psychedelic caps.

In the case of Mycorrhizae fungus, the 'fruits' actually form on available ventricle roots from terrestrial plants. They cannot come to be in any other way. This forms a symbiotic relationship between fungus and plant. The plant gets direct access to the mycelium network which, if all has been done correctly, incidentally has access to all available nutrients and moisture present in the whole of the medium. In exchange the fungus gets to feed off of pure carbohydrate material that is shed by the plans' roots as a side-effect of their growth. (this is the same process that drives the ever-so-cool dissapearing-root trick after harvest)

So in short: Yes, we must use organics and yes there must be an incubation period. I've always run my incubation long, a week at least but usually more. I have no idea how long is actually necessary, I know I'm over-doing it.

So we're gonna pre-load the medium. We throw in everything neccessary for veg and not much else. I use:

Blood meal (1 cup per five gallons)
Kelp Meal (aschophylum nodosum specifically, 3 cups per five gallons)
Bio Tone Starter Plus (2 cups per 5 gallons)
Fast Acting Lime (2 tablespoons per 5 gallons)
Epsom salts (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons)

And thats it.

Flop into the tubs and fire up the bubblers. Let sit for I'm-not-sure-how-long and stick the plants in. I waited a week or more and stuck in the tiny sproutlets straight out of the wet paper-towels. I've always had success. Others may want to start in a peat pellet or something and incubate less, whatever.

This is basically all you need to get through veg if you ar SOG or limited-hight or otherwise under a 20 day veg period. If you want to go longer or otherwise feel badass then supplement with a fish emulsion tea. Otherwise just top off the reservoir when it gets low and wait.

When you switch to flower we are gonna add some nutes. Organics where great for the nitrogen-heavy veg period, but they have their shortcomings for flower. At or shortly after you switch to 12/12 you are gonna want to hit them with a flower tea. I use peruvian bat guano for phosphorus and corn cob ash for potassium.

bring 1 quart of water to boil
add:
1/2 cup bat guano
1/4 cup corncob ash

Immediately take off of heat, stir for a minute or two and then let sit for 5 more. Pour through a filter. Paper coffee filters work, but you'll have to be patient. I have an anodized reusable coffee filter that has a cool oblong mesh. You want something pretty fine, minimum of around 120 micron because of the ash. Add this potent liquid to enough cool water to make a total of 2 gallons. For me this watered 2 tubs, your mileage will vary.

We are still cruising all-organic. However, as soon as the plants sex and real flowering begins you are gonna want a bigger phosphate load than is practical to deliver with organics. It is at this point that I sneak in some simple Bloom Burst. It is a 10-55-6 high-concentration solid salt fertilizer. How high of a concentration? I don't consider a rate anywhere above 3 teaspoons (thats TEA spoons!) per 2 gallons of water safe. I've used this mixture 2-3 times during flower, between flush cycles, with no apparent damage to the micro-life. There is still a visible white fuzz gripping the organic coconut medium even right before harvest. You can use the origional bat guano tea between Bloom burst dosages to use less salt ferts and push it towards only 2 uses of it for flower. Keep in mind that if you use genuine corn cob ash you may want to back off on it for the 2nd dose and definitely for the 3rd dose if you get that far. I haven't found any buffing or otherwise adding calcium/magnesium/sulfur to be necessary. Bloom Burst packs these in spades (along which CHELATED iron, woo-hoo!) and the initially-added Bio Tone has a nice load of these traces as well. Feel free to check the PH of your runoff or do tests on samples of the medium (I did both religiously for a while), but if the micro-life are kept happy you will eventually find it unnecessary. My Ph always tended to lock into a more soil-like 6.5 and the plants where extreemly happy there (except for my damn tomatoes ).

I'm not very familiar with pure-coco growing. My closest experience was my first OBBT experiment where I ran a 75% coco 10% vermiculite 15% organic compost medium. It handled a lot more like DWC hydro, with its PH fluctuating from 7.2 to 5.7 (granted, this may have had more to do with the fact that I had only included the fungus part of the micro-life equation). I am not sure if this nutrient regime will work on pure coco. I understand that all-coir grows are given ferts fairly often. The OBBTs prefer only very periodic feeding (once every 1-2 weeks) as the micro-life deliver a constant and gradual feed of nutes based on the full cocktail that is available and the demands of the plant. The micro-life in pure coco that lacks oxygen injection will surely be fairly weak in comparison. You may feed them a more diluted version of these teas more often or something like that to keep the control factors as similar between the OBBT group and the normal coir group as possible. Theoretically you could make it so they even got the same mass of nutes over time, just delivered at different rates. The OBBTs prefer the nutes in lumps where you just slow-feed it to the coir at a constant rate. Or something. You're the pure-coir expert between the two of us, I hope I've helped you to figure it out.

That said, I am totally stoked at your prospects for a proper experiment between the OBBT style and a previously accepted and much-celebrated grow method. I would love for the control factors to be tight and for it to be a really good no-arguments-show-down. Keeping the whole shebang 80% organic would go a long way to doing this. I've read up on all-organic coir growing here on the ICmag, so surely it can be done. Can't wait to see something come of this

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

DrunkenMessiah, thank you for long and detailed explanation.. i am glad that we are able to stay in dialog.. hopefully i will have a successful test with your help.. yesterday i was able to mix my first batch of growing medium.
for 16 gallons total:
2 gal - compost (Vermiblend Premium Soil Amendment)
http://www.vermicrop.com/product_details.php?products_id=4
2 gal - power flower soil
http://plantitearth.com/store/product.aspx?afid=froogle&pid=445
2 gal - vermiculite
2 gal - perlite
8 gal - canna coco
6 cups plant tone (espoma) - bio tone starter plus for some reason is not available in cali.. according to tech support plant tone is similar product, but laking mycorrihzae
http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/pdf/products/tones/Esp_Plant.pdf
3 Tbs - granular root growth enhancer (down to earth)
http://www.downtoearthfertilizer.com/granularroot.html
i am not sure will it work or not, but i don't have an option at this point to let it bubble over hydroton in individual containers.. so i put on a bottom of 3 mil trash bag air-stones and dumped the mix over.. i figured, you need air to go through the soil.. and it happens even without hydroton.. so we will see what happens..
now comes time for questions.. my system is designed the following way.. i have a veg room and a flower.. i veg in small pots made out of coir and filled with about 1 cup of coco.. i use ebb-n-flow system watering once a day.. it works out pretty good since they have time to drink/evaporation about half of the liquid weight.. i usually veg for 2 weeks.. and then replant them to 3 gallon pots in flower room with coco.. and they get switched to 12/12 at that time.. the bottom of 3 gallon pot is filled to about 1.5' with hydroton and there is a drain as close to the bottom as i could get ~ 3/4" so it's not really hempy bucket but it is similar since some though minimum amount of feed water is left at the bottom..
so back to my test questions..
- do you think it would be a problem to stick coco filled small pots (again volume of coco about 1 cup) to soil mix? i personally think it is possible to see some deficiencies at the beginning of flower since there are two different mediums with different ph requirements..
- let's say i use your veg mix for vegging and add to my mix additional:
Blood meal (1 cup per five gallons)
Kelp Meal (aschophylum nodosum specifically, 3 cups per five gallons)
Fast Acting Lime (2 tablespoons per 5 gallons)
Epsom salts (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons)
do i have to add the same ingredients to my flower mix to 3 gallon pots or my original mix is sufficient? and i would just need to water guano/ash tea in the first couple weeks of 12/12?
- as far as organic fertilizers.. what is your take on liquid pure blend pro for flower? it is organic fertilizer with some salts.. would it be fair substitution to bloom burst? lets say i feed it once a week and the rest is water with molasses at 6.5ph?
thank you

plumbum said:

- do you think it would be a problem to stick coco filled small pots (again volume of coco about 1 cup) to soil mix? i personally think it is possible to see some deficiencies at the beginning of flower since there are two different mediums with different ph requirements..

Click to expand...

No, but it isnt quite desirable. The OBBTs are meant to consume the raw organics to make them safe for even very young sprouts. The sooner the plants are in the bubbling tubs the better. That said, for the purposes of your experiment you can go ahead and do that so as to keep the OBBT and Hempy Tub groups as similar as possible. Your worries about having trouble due to the two mediums having different Ph needs are unfounded. When you plunk the pure-coco root ball down into an active OBBT the microbes are gonna invade so fast that it will make little difference to the plants. I would be very suprised to see any deficiencies early in flower if you follow my advice.

plumbum said:

- let's say i use your veg mix for vegging and add to my mix additional:
Blood meal (1 cup per five gallons)
Kelp Meal (aschophylum nodosum specifically, 3 cups per five gallons)
Fast Acting Lime (2 tablespoons per 5 gallons)
Epsom salts (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons)
do i have to add the same ingredients to my flower mix to 3 gallon pots or my original mix is sufficient? and i would just need to water guano/ash tea in the first couple weeks of 12/12?

Click to expand...

This is a tough question to answer. The way I do it, the sprouts go straight out of the moist paper towels and into the OBBT. Introducing an intermediuate period where the sprouts are developed in smaller non-bubbled pots fundamentally changes the grow style and is beyond the scope of my expirience. When I pre-load the medium with the veg nutes I have no idea how much of it is left when the switch to flower happens, I assume that not all of it is used. Pre-loading your flower medium with those veg nutes might mean that adding the strong guano/ash tea on top of that will be too much. My schedule hinges on the idea that the nute content of the soil is diminished when flower nutes go in. I'm afraid you are going to have to experiment on your own to figure this out.

plumbum said:

- as far as organic fertilizers.. what is your take on liquid pure blend pro for flower? it is organic fertilizer with some salts.. would it be fair substitution to bloom burst? lets say i feed it once a week and the rest is water with molasses at 6.5ph?
thank you

Click to expand...

I am familiar with that stuff. That should be fine, you may want to back off on the corncob ash if you use it though. Most ash used for organic fertilizing is wood ash, which is around 4-7% potassium by mass. Corncob ash on the other hand can be from 25 to upwards of 35% potassium by mass! It is extreemly potent for an organic fert. This means you dont have to use much of it, which is great because ash raises the Ph of the medium. I use it because Bloom Burst is very low on potassium (only a miserable 6 percent) for a flowering fert and could use the boost. An organically sourced flower fert may have more making the ash unnessesary. Speaking of useless, molasses will do nothing to help the OBBTs. Molasses is a sort of band-aid for micro-life. The pure liquid carbohydrates will give micro-life a burst of energy. This is not neccessary with the OBBTs, as the environment they make for the microbes is so good. The carbohydrates that are shed from the plant roots and then consumed by the fungus are every bit as pure and high-energy as those found in molasses.

We must keep in mind that the presence of strong Mycorrhizal fungus drastically increaces the OBBTs nutrient efficiency. Medium-grown plants which aren't fungally assisted require nutrient levels that are much much higher than those needed in the OBBT. Beneficial fungal colonies are capable of releasing powerful chemicals that can wrench 'tightly bound' nutrients from the soil and pipe them into the plant. Minerals like iron, sulfur and phosphorus which are normally reluctant to be cut loose from the medium will slip off with ease. The bottom line is: to a normal cannabis cultvator who's experience lies with traditional medium growing the amount of nutes added to the OBBT over time will seem like not even nearly enough. And for a normal medium grow they wouldn't be enough. Non-microbially-boosted grows have much of their nutes thrown away and rinsed out of the bottom of the pot, never seeing use. This means that much more nutes have to be added over time. The OBBTs cling to every last piece of nutrition that makes it into the tub and therefore require much less to be put in. A good feel for this difference is not something that I can teach you. Only expirience will help you get this right. Just remember, when it comes to running OBBTs less is more.

Sounds like you got my medium down correctly, sticking the air-stones at the bottom should work just as well without the hydroton (so long as there are not plants growing in it). I believe you are heading in the right direction with your equiptment and matirials. Now that this thread is heating back up again I will be checking in at least once a day, prolly even more, so feel free to fire off more questions and I will do my best to help. Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

when adding the veg mix to the mix how is this done. Do you mix into the mix thats been sitting for a week or so . Or do you sprinkle it over the top . Or do you add it to water and pour it on ?

The veg mix MUST BE PRE-LOADED!

This is how the incubation period works. Raw, high-potency organics are mixed into the medium when it is first brought together. The organic components of these ferts are what feed the microbes, thus they need be combined with the medium on day 1. Just sprinkle the nutes into whatever container you use to mix the coconut, compost, perlite and vermiculite into our magic medium. The veg mix is a one-shot deal, you will never use it again for the rest of that grow cycle. Because of this, all that is needed during veg is a little fish emulsion (and only if you run a long veg). Add organics and salt ferts as a tea during flower as I described in my previous post. Hope that clarifies it for you.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

Thank you .

If I transplant clone into the prepared unit is there any benefit in a veg pariod . You mentioned how it is possible using one plant to realise a larger harvest through intensive super cropping . Is it best to allow a pariod of veg in order to attain this?
My second question is the container that this is prepared in . What is the best size for one supercropped plant. would a 30 litre rectangular container be fine or is a larger pot that is taller and deeper be a better unit or does it not really matter. thanks

Hi DrunkenMessiah,

I googled your page while learning how to use regular ol' hempy buckets and am now engrossed in your system. I would really like to imitate your system as much as possible using what supplies I have and would appreciate any advice.

I am currently on my second grow (the first did not end so well). When I first started, I was copying another grow using DWC + Fox Farm nutes. After bad results, a member of another forum suggested hand-watering with synthetic nutes (GH Flora series).

I am now planning on growing a couple more clones using my organic nutes and a airstone-supported hempy bucket. My question:

How close can I get to your setup using my nutes instead of buying your ingredient list directly? In addition to the FF nutes I have a little bit of Dr. Hornsby Tarantula and Piranha which are beneficial fungi and stuff. What might you do in my situation? Thanks in advance!

solarpowered_ca said:

If I transplant clone into the prepared unit is there any benefit in a veg pariod . You mentioned how it is possible using one plant to realise a larger harvest through intensive super cropping . Is it best to allow a pariod of veg in order to attain this?
My second question is the container that this is prepared in . What is the best size for one supercropped plant. would a 30 litre rectangular container be fine or is a larger pot that is taller and deeper be a better unit or does it not really matter. thanks

Click to expand...

I've long experimented with different values for both of these questions.

My experience with cloning is limited, I have always grown from seed. I surely would have been experimenting with maintaining mothers by now if I had not discovered supercropping and natural hormone treatments. Doing these things right has netted me female/male ratios in excess of 85/15 when growing from a moderate number (more than a dozen) mixed seeds. Because of this, I've always run aggressive, short veg cycles (22 days from when the initial round leaves turn green [usually just 1 day out of the wet paper towels] being my longest veg EVER). With the OBBTs I've come to run inside of 16 days of veg.

During this time you are supercropping very agressively. When the plant puts on its very first set of serrated leaves there is a tiny main stem internode gap between them and the origional round leaves. A day or two after it first appears I supercrop it and then do so as well to every new internode gap that appears after it on a similar schedule. Wait till the plant has 2 sets of serrateds and then pluck off the origional round leaves and pot up to at least where they used to be attached. Continue to supercrop through veg, aiming to get at least 2 leaf nodes per vertical inch of main stem. Even with only a 6 inch tall plant at the end of veg thats a dozen leaf nodes and subsequently 24 potential bud locations.

And bud they shall. With such a compact main stalk nearly every node is within a good shot of the light. Everywhere that a fan leaf attaches to the main stem there will be a shoot (clone, sucker, plantlets, whatever) starting to form. Being mindful not to supercrop them, allow nearly all the shoots to grow into a decent nub and then switch to flower. When stretch kicks in the gnarled, heavily supercropped and almost certainly bark-covered main stalk will not elongate at all. New growth on top of it will want to take off, but you will continue to supercrop it (this is where it becomes easy and natural to ScrOG, LST, or train in some way) as diligently as ever. The un-touched shoots however explode into unbelievably lanky stretch. I've measured hilariously large internode gaps bigger than seven inches on a foot-tall plant. This is desirable. We use this massive stretching of the shoots to get each and every one of them up to a nice domed canopy level. When the shoot gets up to the good light and sortof matches the main cola in height then we supercrop it like crazy. You must be exceedingly careful as these stems will be very long yet wispy-thin. They will almost certainly lay down completely and loose all of their ability to hold themselves up for a brief time. So long as you took care not to sever the xylem (obviously it must be done only by hand) all shall be well and the shoots will halt in their crazy streching and proceed to bulk up. This means that even plantlets coming off of the lowest leaf nodes that nearly touch the ground have a very good shot at making it up to the front-line penetrating light and thus yielding very well.

If you've pictured this in your mind correctly you may realize that it is a sortof free-standing-no-strings ScrOG. It is made possible by supercropping and the fast, rapid veg cycles afforded by the OBBTs. I also credit it to the life inertia and overall vigor of seed-started plants.

Solarpowered, what I have tried to do here is break down completely the process of this organically-driven supercropping-veg and why it is advantageous. I'm sure that it is adaptable to clones, but I have yet to take a shot at it. Armed with my veg style you will have to make tweaks in order to transform it into something of your very own.

As for your containers, 30 liters is nearly 8 gallons which is pleanty of volume. I favor a rectangular container myself that is deeper than it is wide. (exact dimensions: 13 inch depth with a 6 inch by 12 inch mouth for nearly 5 gallons total volume; very nice for stacking in a row) The OBBTs like to have at least a 3 inch water reservoir and I would hesitate to grant them that with any less than 5 inches of organic medium to lay on top. As long as you are at least somewhere around that you will be fine. The added volume means that you could go with a longer veg. I once used my supercropping regime to grow two foot plants under very large HID lighting in large containers (this was before I had perfected the OBBTS) which yielded over a quarter pound per plant. This has already been pointed out by some ICmag forum members as sounding completely ludicrous. As I explained to them though: it isn't that mad when you take the figures into consideration. Each plant had more than two dozen 'top colas' (buds that got the same light exposure as the one on the main stem) meaning that we barely had to average 1 gram per bud. Also, given our total wattage (1000 watt HID) we didn't even break 0.6 grams per watt, which is pathetic frankly.

I think that large versions of my perfected OBBTs could make good on the needed nutrient delivery to drive my previous numbers significantly beyond the crap they had managed. Teaming that up with a tweaked version of my normalized hormone treatments could make for yields that I have yet to personally experience.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

dR. HerbLove said:

Hi DrunkenMessiah,

I googled your page while learning how to use regular ol' hempy buckets and am now engrossed in your system. I would really like to imitate your system as much as possible using what supplies I have and would appreciate any advice.

I am currently on my second grow (the first did not end so well). When I first started, I was copying another grow using DWC + Fox Farm nutes. After bad results, a member of another forum suggested hand-watering with synthetic nutes (GH Flora series).

I am now planning on growing a couple more clones using my organic nutes and a airstone-supported hempy bucket. My question:

How close can I get to your setup using my nutes instead of buying your ingredient list directly? In addition to the FF nutes I have a little bit of Dr. Hornsby Tarantula and Piranha which are beneficial fungi and stuff. What might you do in my situation? Thanks in advance!

Click to expand...

HerbLove:

I'm sorry you thought it perhaps was necessary to perfectly emulate my organic recopies, this was not my intention when I posted them in their exact form. I encourage those who take my advice to use it in the context of their own experience, supplies and situation. Doing this means that they truly absorbed what I was trying to teach them to the point that they understand its governing theories and can adapt them completely for their own use. So, about those governing theories:

Cannabis, like so many terrestrial plants, requires a cocktail of elements for its growth. It isn't anything like as complicated as what we need and it goes something like this:

Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfur and traces. The first three are the most used and the most important (after hydrogen, carbon and oxygen obviously, but those come from free sources). They correspond to the numbers you see on fert bags (0-0-0). These weird numbers are actually simple, they correspond to what percentage of a substance by mass the fertilizer consists of. This means, say, blood meal (12-0-0) is twelve percent nitrogen-providing-material by mass. The other 88 percent is organic shit that so often goes unused. In the case of OBBTs however that junk drives the beneficial micro-life that lives in the medium.

Now keep in mind, when I say the numbers on the fert bag refer to the percentage of the element by mass, there is a catch. I will allow old nute formulation master ChristianKungFu explain as he so eloquently did those years ago:

(QUOTE FROM OG)
Notice that the N and K requirements are very close. One mistake often made by us growers is to use a high N fert while neglecting K. If you use a 12-0-0, 5-1-1 or something similar, you NEED to supplement with K. Of course, then during flowering we boost the P and lower the other macros.

Another reason the P,K figures are higher than maybe expected is due to a bit of trickery on the fertilizer labels of commercial products.

The N figure is straight forward because N comes from organics or salts....almost NEVER in mineral forms, but because P and K come in some degree of rock/mineral form, much of it isn't immediately available for uptake by root system because the nutrients aren't in ionic form. Therefore, the label figures actually represent the amount of P2O5 and K2O (NOT the amount of P,K) available in the FIRST year.

You can figure the ACTUAL amount of P by multiplying the label# by 0.44 and the K amount by 0.83.
(*END*)

So, we need this stuff, I provide it through the elements I chose, but let me re-post that list like this:

Veg nutes (all pre-loaded):
Blood meal (1 cup per five gallons) [12-0-0]
Kelp Meal (aschophylum nodosum specifically, 3 cups per five gallons) [1-0-2 plus insane traces]
Bio Tone Starter Plus (2 cups per 5 gallons) [3-4-3 plus magnesium and traces]
Fast Acting Lime (2 tablespoons per 5 gallons) [100% calcium]
Epsom salts (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons) [80% sulfur 20% magnesium]

Organic Flower nutes (delivered as a tea):
1/2 cup bat guano [0.5-12-0.2]
1/3 cup corncob ash [0-0-25]

Supplimentary Salts for flower:
Bloom Burst (1 TEAspoon per gallon) [10-55-6 plus chelated iron]

Total main nutes for veg come out to around 11-4-5. Nitrogen-heavy with a tad extra potassium; just like we want it. Keep in mind these numbers are for OBBTs which are, as far as I know, the most efficient users of nutrients out of any grow style. In medium grows that have weak, or worse; no, beneficial microbes the majority of added nutrients go unused. Many of the elements that the plants need are 'tightly bound' to the medium and can only be liberated by plain-old osmosis at a very low rate. With Mycorrhizae fungus in the medium however, things are different. These fungus secrete special compounds that loosen stubborn sulfur and phosphates, iron and minerals from their delivery substance. "Water Insoluble" nitrogen that would normally go almost entirely to waste is seized by the mycelium network and piped into the plant.

Because OBBTs have the most aggressive microlife of any grow style they are unnervingly efficient at using nutes. Even with my warnings you will almost certainly use too many nutes if you have any previous experience with medium growing. I did, three goddamn times. I just couldn't believe that no added nutes where necessary for veg and that a single guano tea during stretch and a couple of doses of Bloom Burst (very low dosage, only 1 TEAspoon per gallon) would suffice all the way through flower. Keep in mind I was observing growth rates far beyond anything I had ever experienced in medium style grows. I burned my plants badly in the first 3 iterations of the OBBTs. You must learn to put your faith in the microbes and trust that they are going to wring nearly all of the nutritional content from the soil and pipe it directly to the plants. This is why we maintain the unique incubation period and do our best to maintain a nearly 100% organic nutrient regime.

With all of these things in mind, I'm sure that you can adapt the OBBTs to your own nutes. Try to achieve similar nute rates given what you have available. Remember that you will need to add supplementary Mycorrhizae fungus spores AND dormant aerobic bacteria. I get both from the Bio Tone organic fert, you may have to acquire it separately.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

DrunkenMessiah said:

HerbLove:

I'm sorry you thought it perhaps was necessary to perfectly emulate my organic recopies, this was not my intention when I posted them in their exact form. I encourage those who take my advice to use it in the context of their own experience, supplies and situation. Doing this means that they truly absorbed what I was trying to teach them to the point that they understand its governing theories and can adapt them completely for their own use. So, about those governing theories:

Cannabis, like so many terrestrial plants, requires a cocktail of elements for its growth. It isn't anything like as complicated as what we need and it goes something like this:

Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfur and traces. The first three are the most used and the most important (after hydrogen, carbon and oxygen obviously, but those come from free sources). They correspond to the numbers you see on fert bags (0-0-0). These weird numbers are actually simple, they correspond to what percentage of a substance by mass the fertilizer consists of. This means, say, blood meal (12-0-0) is twelve percent nitrogen-providing-material by mass. The other 88 percent is organic shit that so often goes unused. In the case of OBBTs however that junk drives the beneficial micro-life that lives in the medium.

Now keep in mind, when I say the numbers on the fert bag refer to the percentage of the element by mass, there is a catch. I will allow old nute formulation master ChristianKungFu explain as he so eloquently did those years ago:

(QUOTE FROM OG)
Notice that the N and K requirements are very close. One mistake often made by us growers is to use a high N fert while neglecting K. If you use a 12-0-0, 5-1-1 or something similar, you NEED to supplement with K. Of course, then during flowering we boost the P and lower the other macros.

Another reason the P,K figures are higher than maybe expected is due to a bit of trickery on the fertilizer labels of commercial products.

The N figure is straight forward because N comes from organics or salts....almost NEVER in mineral forms, but because P and K come in some degree of rock/mineral form, much of it isn't immediately available for uptake by root system because the nutrients aren't in ionic form. Therefore, the label figures actually represent the amount of P2O5 and K2O (NOT the amount of P,K) available in the FIRST year.

You can figure the ACTUAL amount of P by multiplying the label# by 0.44 and the K amount by 0.83.
(*END*)

So, we need this stuff, I provide it through the elements I chose, but let me re-post that list like this:

Veg nutes (all pre-loaded):
Blood meal (1 cup per five gallons) [12-0-0]
Kelp Meal (aschophylum nodosum specifically, 3 cups per five gallons) [1-0-2 plus insane traces]
Bio Tone Starter Plus (2 cups per 5 gallons) [3-4-3 plus magnesium and traces]
Fast Acting Lime (2 tablespoons per 5 gallons) [100% calcium]
Epsom salts (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons) [80% sulfur 20% magnesium]

Organic Flower nutes (delivered as a tea):
1/2 cup bat guano [0.5-12-0.2]
1/3 cup corncob ash [0-0-25]

Supplimentary Salts for flower:
Bloom Burst (1 TEAspoon per gallon) [10-55-6 plus chelated iron]

Total main nutes for veg come out to around 11-4-5. Nitrogen-heavy with a tad extra potassium; just like we want it. Keep in mind these numbers are for OBBTs which are, as far as I know, the most efficient users of nutrients out of any grow style. In medium grows that have weak, or worse; no, beneficial microbes the majority of added nutrients go unused. Many of the elements that the plants need are 'tightly bound' to the medium and can only be liberated by plain-old osmosis at a very low rate. With Mycorrhizae fungus in the medium however, things are different. These fungus secrete special compounds that loosen stubborn sulfur and phosphates, iron and minerals from their delivery substance. "Water Insoluble" nitrogen that would normally go almost entirely to waste is seized by the mycelium network and piped into the plant.

Because OBBTs have the most aggressive microlife of any grow style they are unnervingly efficient at using nutes. Even with my warnings you will almost certainly use too many nutes if you have any previous experience with medium growing. I did, three goddamn times. I just couldn't believe that no added nutes where necessary for veg and that a single guano tea during stretch and a couple of doses of Bloom Burst (very low dosage, only 1 TEAspoon per gallon) would suffice all the way through flower. Keep in mind I was observing growth rates far beyond anything I had ever experienced in medium style grows. I burned my plants badly in the first 3 iterations of the OBBTs. You must learn to put your faith in the microbes and trust that they are going to wring nearly all of the nutritional content from the soil and pipe it directly to the plants. This is why we maintain the unique incubation period and do our best to maintain a nearly 100% organic nutrient regime.

With all of these things in mind, I'm sure that you can adapt the OBBTs to your own nutes. Try to achieve similar nute rates given what you have available. Remember that you will need to add supplementary Mycorrhizae fungus spores AND dormant aerobic bacteria. I get both from the Bio Tone organic fert, you may have to acquire it separately.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

Click to expand...

DM,

Thank you for your detailed response! Specifically, I was wondering if those Fox Farm nutrients will work in the system that your have (i.e., maintain a healthy wildlife population). I don't have any of those ingredients you listed nor the budget to attain them. What I am having a problem with is reconciling your advice with the feeding schedule it comes with. That schedule (and therefore N-P-K) change weekly, whereas you only 2 regimes.

Could I give you my situation and perhaps you could advise me?

I am planning on using 2 ltr bottles as hempy buckets. At the bottom will be an airstone + hydroton. From the drain hole up will be 100% perlite. You mentioned that you allow the medium to settle with the airstone + soln for a week before seeding. What type of setting do you let it sit in? Lighted? Dark? Lidded?

Thanks for your help!

I let the medium sit in the dark during incubation.

I am not familiar with the specifics of your Fox Farm nutes and I assume that they are organically derived. I was simply trying to break down the basics of what goes on nutrient-wise with my OBBTs. You will need to achieve similar nutritional rates with what you have on hand. Nitrogen-heavy during veg (with a bit of extra potassium) 100% pre-loaded into the medium. Then go heavy on the phosphorus, reduce nitrogen while still maintaining good potassium through flower.

You mention that your nutes reccomend weekly changes. Those instructions where designed for grows with weak or nonexistant microlife. In such a setting the majority of the nutritional content of the nutes are going to get rinsed away through the overflow. This does not happen with the OBBTs, almost all of the nutrients get used. Therefore, nute dosages come few and far between. Some experimentation on your part is going to be neccessary to make it work. Without a deatailed chemical and nutritional breakdown of the nutes you have I cannot make any reccomendations reguarding your specific nutritional regime. All I can do is teach you the underlying theory and warn that less is more when it comes to nutrients in the OBBTs.

Your proposed containers (cut 2 liter bottles) do not sound voluminous enough to me. You are going to have to run something silly, like a 1 week veg to keep the plants from getting root bound in such tiny containers. The OBBT is a wonderous technique, but in my expirience it doesn't scale up in numbers very well. With induvidual dump and overflow falves they are better suited to fewer, larger containers maintaining bigger, larger-yield plants. Your small containers lend themselves better to an en masse' SOG with many small 'budsicle' style plants. The OBBTs may be overkill for this appliacation.

Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

My last soil grow involved FoxFarm organic nutrients and the plants seemed to love them. They are 100% organic and I don't see why they shouldn't work.