eyesdownchronic
Active member
What a great thread
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It's all snake oil except for your base nutes and micos
- Thread starter macdiesel
- Start date
eyesdownchronic
Active member
Would this not also apply to "organic" nutrients.
IF anything when using organics you run this risk even higher as you are using a less concentrated fertilizer source. i.e. more "other stuff" in the feed you are giving.
exp. applying 200ppm of N when using CaNo3 which is 15% N requires 6.66x more fertilizer by wight, but if using compost ie organic matter which is about 2% N you have to apply 50 x fertilizer by weight.
So you would be adding significantly more unessential nutrient to supply the same level of N.
Also,
soil is filled with tons of toxic things ie Aluminum, arsenic, lead that cannabis plants take up that would not be present in a soilless medium.
I wonder if some of the problem people have with synthetics comes from overfeeding (or not giving the proper ratios of nutrients)
Just my two cents
G
growhigh1233
good ol general hydroponics 3 part is all i use for my hydroponic grows .............keeping the nutrients low 1.0 from cuttings going upto 1.4-1.5 e.c in flowering ............never any higher than that
simple fact is all nutrient companies have a vested interest in the grower using more
indicas and sativas perform well at 1.4 e.c throughout the flower period
never any issues with salt build up or over feeding
simple fact is all nutrient companies have a vested interest in the grower using more
indicas and sativas perform well at 1.4 e.c throughout the flower period
never any issues with salt build up or over feeding
I think the idea with real organics, and not just using some sort of bottled fish smoothie, is that you feed the microbes, the microbes feed the roots, and the roots feed the plant, and the soil/medium is the environment where that life cycle thrives
I have heard before that with organics the roots don't actually uptake what the plant doesn't need, everything they need is there and the symbiotic relationship with the microbes and roots will provide the plant just what it needs
now here is the issue with organics, in some cases it is ever pressing to become more like hydro with faster results, immediately available nutrients, bigger yields etc, most all of the bottled organic nutrients that are meant to compete with hydro nutrients are fish smoothies that offer a lot of immediately available nutrients
fulvic/humic acids and chelators are meant to help break down nutrient deposits and make them available, however that is also a primary function of microbial life in the rootzone
when you override the function of the microbial relationships, with other things that do the job and provide a different source of nutrient availability, the plant will uptake it vs the microbes in a way knowing what the plant needs
I used to get real hot looking plants when I would start to amend the soil for transplants, I also used to use the fulvic/humic supplement for watering during transplants
I just recently transplanted some young seedlings using the same thing to amend the new container with, but I didn't use the fulvic/humic supplement, they look 100% better and more properly fed, it's still way early to see how this is going to end up but so far so good in cutting the fulvic/humic supplement
I have heard before that with organics the roots don't actually uptake what the plant doesn't need, everything they need is there and the symbiotic relationship with the microbes and roots will provide the plant just what it needs
now here is the issue with organics, in some cases it is ever pressing to become more like hydro with faster results, immediately available nutrients, bigger yields etc, most all of the bottled organic nutrients that are meant to compete with hydro nutrients are fish smoothies that offer a lot of immediately available nutrients
fulvic/humic acids and chelators are meant to help break down nutrient deposits and make them available, however that is also a primary function of microbial life in the rootzone
when you override the function of the microbial relationships, with other things that do the job and provide a different source of nutrient availability, the plant will uptake it vs the microbes in a way knowing what the plant needs
I used to get real hot looking plants when I would start to amend the soil for transplants, I also used to use the fulvic/humic supplement for watering during transplants
I just recently transplanted some young seedlings using the same thing to amend the new container with, but I didn't use the fulvic/humic supplement, they look 100% better and more properly fed, it's still way early to see how this is going to end up but so far so good in cutting the fulvic/humic supplement
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Yes, yes it does and your examples are very good. With hydro I work to eliminate 'things the plant has no need for but will readily absorb' from the root zone. With organics the readily available and most commonly used methods are chock full of excess, rapid absorption and un-needed items for the plant.
your $0.02 is right on the money with my experience. When the balance is off, there's a great chance excess of some element is being absorbed. Even with a balanced nute profile, overfeeding even once in hydro will definitely affect end flavor.I wonder if some of the problem people have with synthetics comes from overfeeding (or not giving the proper ratios of nutrients)
Just my two cents
I cringe when I hear of growers who do not see any difference when fading/flushing the last few weeks. It generally means they regularly overfeed through most of flower. This means they've been overfeeding for as long as they can remember. (Edit: Though I'm sure some of you have lucked out and been doing it correctly since the beginning.
)This is what I call the "holy grail of organic gardening" or "passive ionic uptake." Great for veggies! Crap for cannabis!
Cannabis does not care what form your NPK/micros take, they will happily absorb excess NPK/micros and also a large variety of other elements and molecules. These excesses and un-needed molecules will be found in the flowers at harvest time, at least any of it the plant is unable to convert in a timely manner.
It's like bringing in 10 extra gallons of paint for a job. The boss says ALL the paint has to be used, so the workers paint it on the walls in multiple layers to get rid of it. When cleanup time comes around, all the empty buckets are removed but the dried paint stays through the 'flush."
Its all bs... If your not doing living soil by now your still in the past.
Chem nutes only pacify plants, and they are surviving day to day.
IF you want the plant to hook into the natural system of life, you are going to need myco fungi to be in place for your roots to hook into like a extended exoskeleton already attached/connected to all required minerals... Bacteria/Fungi are your nutrient highway.
When you have a healthy living soil the bad bugs cant compete. The bad bacteria/fungi cant compete.. Plants thrive and are so vigorous on a cellular level they aren't prone to being overcome by stressors or pathogens/bugs.
Nothings cheaper than burnt wood... wood chips/limbs...leaves... fermented plants/greens.... and cultures of indigenous micro organisms.
Definitely look into KNF..Living Soil...
Chem nutes only pacify plants, and they are surviving day to day.
IF you want the plant to hook into the natural system of life, you are going to need myco fungi to be in place for your roots to hook into like a extended exoskeleton already attached/connected to all required minerals... Bacteria/Fungi are your nutrient highway.
When you have a healthy living soil the bad bugs cant compete. The bad bacteria/fungi cant compete.. Plants thrive and are so vigorous on a cellular level they aren't prone to being overcome by stressors or pathogens/bugs.
Nothings cheaper than burnt wood... wood chips/limbs...leaves... fermented plants/greens.... and cultures of indigenous micro organisms.
Definitely look into KNF..Living Soil...
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
lol, well you've definitely posted your (edit: past experiences with hydro. No worries, we all have our time for experiencing truly clean cannabis. At least I hope so.
)When done correctly, cannabis really doesn't care what method you use and will produce amazing flowers. If you can tell it was organic or hydro, in my opinion it could have been grown better.
eyesdownchronic
Active member
your $0.02 is right on the money with my experience. When the balance is off, there's a great chance excess of some element is being absorbed. Even with a balanced nute profile, overfeeding even once in hydro will definitely affect end flavor.
I cringe when I hear of growers who do not see any difference when fading/flushing the last few weeks. It generally means they regularly overfeed through most of flower. This means they've been overfeeding for as long as they can remember.
This is what I call the "holy grail of organic gardening" or "passive ionic uptake." Great for veggies! Crap for cannabis!
Cannabis does not care what form your NPK/micros take, they will happily absorb excess NPK/micros and also a large variety of other elements and molecules. These excesses and un-needed molecules will be found in the flowers at harvest time, at least any of it the plant is unable to convert in a timely manner.
It's like bringing in 10 extra gallons of paint for a job. The boss says ALL the paint has to be used, so the workers paint it on the walls in multiple layers to get rid of it. When cleanup time comes around, all the empty buckets are removed but the dried paint stays through the 'flush."
I wish I could give this post good rep... could not agree more!
Organic or synthetic, you still gotta do it right.
eyesdownchronic
Active member
Yes, I've heard of living soil. Kind of in the process of transfering from living soils to synthetics.... hahah
. Not that I don't understand the importance of microbial relationships in organic systtems. OR see the benefit of growing cannabis in such a manner.
But,, I think people went way over board with the effectiveness.
Firstly, The idea that microbes are their to maximize cannabis growth or flavor whatever is total bs. Microbes only interest is acquiring as much C source as they can, at the expense of the plant you are growing. Microbes do not discriminate on their C source, regardless of what Macro or micronutrient it may be attached to. The only time that microbes have a beneficial impact on plant growth is when plants are in a system where they do not have access to adequate nutrients, specificlly P.
Secondly, the idea that microbes are feeding a different source of nutrients than a standard bag of fert salt is also total bs. ORganic or synthetic, your plant is gonna be taking up NO3 or NH4. the ionic form.
Thirdly, the idea that you "can't fuck up living soil," the microbes will figure it all out is trash. You can burn your plants just as readily with organic ammendments as you can with synthetics. ITs just "more difficult" to do because the fertilizer sourced used is significantly less concentrated. People seem to have the tendency to overfeed, and one has to be much more careful with synthetics.
None of this is to say that living soil doesn't work, but the idea that it is the only way to grow is one big organic hippie hoopla myth.
The real reason I moved away from living soil is that you have to frontload your nutrient source, and it takes the control away from you as a grower.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
I also see this as a limiting factor and have considered (when I finally get around to experimenting with soil) finding a minimal amendment profile. One which is designed to work with a tea regimen through at least the mid, late and end stages of flower.
I believe strict tolerances are required as soon as flowers begin forming. From this point out in flower, any mistakes I make should ideally be underfeeding if anything.
I used to have a smoothie shop donate all their scraps for my worm farm. One time I took a bucket of bokashi compost (mostly fruit, some vegy) and put a layer in the bottom of a tub with 4 of my favorite clones. The only thing I fed was filtered water and some bt for some gnats. It was hands down the tastiest and smoothest smoke I ever grew. And anyone familiar with that og x chem clone I had would agree.
Was not my best yield. But was not terrible either.
Was not my best yield. But was not terrible either.
Having 5 different types of soil microbes and many variants of each type mean a lot of variables. If I don't know what and how much each variant eats and poops, then i have no data to measure.
Hydro I only need know what my 4 variants poops (puts into the water)and thus manage it and control it.
Much easier to deal with 4 known values than who know how many soil microbes.
Hydro I only need know what my 4 variants poops (puts into the water)and thus manage it and control it.
Much easier to deal with 4 known values than who know how many soil microbes.
Much better to have the most full flavored and smoothest smoke. Those are the only relevant variants to me. I have smoked some good bottle fed herb. But have smoked a lot of fantastic soil and microbe grown herb.
Both can be fucked up. I still do not 100% believe they can achieve the same quality of smoke.
Both can be fucked up. I still do not 100% believe they can achieve the same quality of smoke.
Thank you, Yara supply all the dry nutrient around here, some kind people even break it down into 1kg or 5kg quantities for hobby growers.
It costs about 10USD for 1kg of dry nutrients and my country is expensive, it does about 1000 litres of solution.
Organics can be free but its labour intensive some of us are not that healthy and if your growing in small pots organics is a constant battle to try supply enough.
I 1000000% agree with you all that a lot of people over feed there plants with synthetics , I rarely if ever go above 600ppm in flowering but I also mostly grow sativa dom.
I did some experimenting with coco my last grow, you don't need extra mag you just need extra calnit. Save yourself the money on suppliments and just add about 25-50% extra calnit to your feed seems to work perfectly.
We understood chemistry before we understood biology.. Cool statement i heard recently..
When it comes to yield co2 is only variable that will really matter... Living Soil vs Chem nute you might see one or the other do better based on pheno/how dialed in it is, but overall no point in using chem imo..
At the end of the day the key nutrient is carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. Think about that.
Think about how many chem farmers actually shop for food at walmart... The big ag runoff that ruins our waters, the lack of nutrients in chem food vs living.... Its just obvious how dramatic we could change society with living soil, and beneficial microbes.... Healthcare, Food, Community, and Economy. Not needing to work 40 hours a week to afford convenience based products that pollute, and cost us time/resources... Change the importance of the dollar through self sufficiency, and true wealth/health.
When it comes to yield co2 is only variable that will really matter... Living Soil vs Chem nute you might see one or the other do better based on pheno/how dialed in it is, but overall no point in using chem imo..
At the end of the day the key nutrient is carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. Think about that.
Think about how many chem farmers actually shop for food at walmart... The big ag runoff that ruins our waters, the lack of nutrients in chem food vs living.... Its just obvious how dramatic we could change society with living soil, and beneficial microbes.... Healthcare, Food, Community, and Economy. Not needing to work 40 hours a week to afford convenience based products that pollute, and cost us time/resources... Change the importance of the dollar through self sufficiency, and true wealth/health.
if the environment is proper with fresh air and healthy plants transpiring, additional co2 doesn't do anything
there's a video of a grow workshop from what looks like the mid 90's or something with Arjan and Simon talking about it, where they had tried adding co2 and saw no difference in their rooms
found the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sicXMHhGoEU
there's a video of a grow workshop from what looks like the mid 90's or something with Arjan and Simon talking about it, where they had tried adding co2 and saw no difference in their rooms
found the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sicXMHhGoEU
Junior Capsula
Member
cannabis nutes are like fishing tackle. The vast majority are designed to catch FISHERMEN.
If you need to flush any product from your plants?
You need to FLUSH that product. You don't rinse chemotherapy from your body.
You don't flush chemicals from plants !
Have you ever seen a chemical company post before and after use HPLC results? NO and you never will.
You are consuming poison and passing it on to others. Your spending money and getting nothing in return.
Maximize your soil by building your microbial life before you plant seedlings. Find the genetics best suited for your environment. HYPE ISN'T QUALITY!
Make environmental improvements each season. Your overall productivity will increase without buying magic elixirs.
There's no substitute for knowledge and preparation. (The Cannabis Grow Bible).
Buy one and study it cover to cover multiple times.
When you think you know everything, you stop learning anything.
Don't let pride keep you from being a good grower, person, husband and dad/mom.
When you feel that urge to supertune your grow. Do yourself and your plants a favor and walk away.
Peace farmerlion
Fucking amen, that’s the truth!
thugpoet
Active member
Honestly the biggest tell is when you look at the composition on the label. There are only so many things plants need, as long as you are giving them all the kind of nutrients they need in the right ratios, anything else is snake oil.
On top of that, the dosages that some companies recommend are pushing to the edge of almost overfeeding so that you go through bottles faster. The plants take in more but do not grow faster, which can lead to a number of problems including a reduced yield (excessive nitrogen in flowering) and make it near impossible to properly flush.
Less is better in this case.
On top of that, the dosages that some companies recommend are pushing to the edge of almost overfeeding so that you go through bottles faster. The plants take in more but do not grow faster, which can lead to a number of problems including a reduced yield (excessive nitrogen in flowering) and make it near impossible to properly flush.
Less is better in this case.
eyesdownchronic
Active member
I think that you are right saying that the form of nutrients, organic v synthetic, will not make much of a difference to yield if both are dialed in.
However, I would disagree with saying that CO2 is the only variable which can increase growth and yield. Water and O2 (like you said) uptake by roots can drastically affect growth and yield, which is why hydroponics is generally considered to give better yields.
Also worth noting that organic ammendments can also pollute water ways with NO3 if supplied in excess. Its all about how its done. A grower using a recirculating hydroponic system has no runoff and uses nutrients much more efficiently than someone who uses organics.
I can't say any names here, but there are some real rip-offs out there, and by the time we get wise to them they're already rich. All that stuff is a bunch of snake oil crap! BEWARE
