Cycloptics Greenbeams 315w owners thread

Ez Rider · Feb 13, 2016

Well, I'm about 85% finished with my rebuild, and besides being way over budget, I'm feeling pretty good. I'm still waiting on one of my ballasts, but I've got 5 up and running in my main tent. They are BRIGHT! The plants are a little fazed after the t-5's, but nothing too serious. I'll be using a C/G for veg in the future, so hopefully this won't be an ongoing thing. I actually want to raise the working platform in the main tent a bit more for clearance on my intake ducting, but I'll wait for the plants to adjust. I also have a bit more electrical work to do, but parts are on order, so it will have to wait till monday or tuesday. I'm also going to up the duct size from 6" to 8" on my 6" intake fans. I'm already using 8" ducting for my 6" exhaust fans, and it made a HUGE difference in noise levels. By no means is this system "quiet", but is more like the hum of computer servers, less like the roar of jet turbines. The real trick is dampening out the higher pitch noises. I wrap the fans in memory foam, which helps quite a bit.

On the heat issue. At this moment, the air entering the tent is 70F, the exiting air is 76F, and the temp 2' under the lamps(my intended final headroom) is 77F. I estimate my air movement at ~600cfm. This would put the btu's at ~800/lamp. Pretty much right in the middle. Mind you these aren't laboratory measurement, but they're reasonably close. I'm trying to find my anemometer to get more precise measurements. Keep in mind, I am running the ballasts inside the tent. I'll have to run my a/c during the warmer days, especially with all 6, but I'd already planned on that. As soon as I switch to flower, I'll run from sundown to sunup to minimize the need for a/c. Once summer hits, the a/c will have to run 24/7, but I should still be OK.

frostqueen · Feb 13, 2016

Ez Rider said:
Well, I'm about 85% finished with my rebuild, and besides being way over budget, I'm feeling pretty good. I'm still waiting on one of my ballasts, but I've got 5 up and running in my main tent. They are BRIGHT! The plants are a little fazed after the t-5's, but nothing too serious. I'll be using a C/G for veg in the future, so hopefully this won't be an ongoing thing. I actually want to raise the working platform in the main tent a bit more for clearance on my intake ducting, but I'll wait for the plants to adjust. I also have a bit more electrical work to do, but parts are on order, so it will have to wait till monday or tuesday. I'm also going to up the duct size from 6" to 8" on my 6" intake fans. I'm already using 8" ducting for my 6" exhaust fans, and it made a HUGE difference in noise levels. By no means is this system "quiet", but is more like the hum of computer servers, less like the roar of jet turbines. The real trick is dampening out the higher pitch noises. I wrap the fans in memory foam, which helps quite a bit.

On the heat issue. At this moment, the air entering the tent is 70F, the exiting air is 76F, and the temp 2' under the lamps(my intended final headroom) is 77F. I estimate my air movement at ~600cfm. This would put the btu's at ~800/lamp. Pretty much right in the middle. Mind you these aren't laboratory measurement, but they're reasonably close. I'm trying to find my anemometer to get more precise measurements. Keep in mind, I am running the ballasts inside the tent. I'll have to run my a/c during the warmer days, especially with all 6, but I'd already planned on that. As soon as I switch to flower, I'll run from sundown to sunup to minimize the need for a/c. Once summer hits, the a/c will have to run 24/7, but I should still be OK.

Good info, thanks for sharing this. I think a 12k mini should do it if I have 8 lights in a closed room. I don't want to vent for more than ~5 minutes every hour, as I want to bring in CO2 eventually.

timmur · Feb 13, 2016

Thanks EZ! Next weekend I should complete most of my room too! So ready to get the show on the road. Good stuff on the heat.

Ez Rider · Feb 13, 2016

frostqueen said:
Good info, thanks for sharing this. I think a 12k mini should do it if I have 8 lights in a closed room. I don't want to vent for more than ~5 minutes every hour, as I want to bring in CO2 eventually.

I'd go with 18K. The price difference is small, the peace of mind priceless. If you need a/c, you will always need more than you think. There's the ambient heat load, as well as the heat load from the lamps. I have an 18K for my studio. 20 x 20 rm, with my tent inside. Seems to do good so far, even when it's 90F outside.

frostqueen · Feb 15, 2016

Ez Rider said:
I'd go with 18K. The price difference is small, the peace of mind priceless. If you need a/c, you will always need more than you think. There's the ambient heat load, as well as the heat load from the lamps. I have an 18K for my studio. 20 x 20 rm, with my tent inside. Seems to do good so far, even when it's 90F outside.

It's in a basement and the outer room is a steady 70 degrees via another 18k already installed. But good point, and I'll need 18k for sure if I put a CO2 burner in there. Tanks are such a hassle.

Ez Rider · Feb 15, 2016

frostqueen said:
It's in a basement and the outer room is a steady 70 degrees via another 18k already installed. But good point, and I'll need 18k for sure if I put a CO2 burner in there. Tanks are such a hassle.

I've always wanted to run co2, but I sleep in the same room as the tent. Everything I've read says that continuous exposure to 1000ppm co2 is safe, but I'm still a little leary of it.

timmur · Feb 16, 2016

McKush asked me to post this reply to a question that was asked in my thread in the sig below. I was asked about the coverage of Greenbeams and I replied with what I know, but others may have more to offer so here's the question and my response. Please feel free to chime in as I pointed tableshaper to this thread.

Question

Originally Posted by tableshaper View Post
Hello timmur
I found the greenbeams and then found you! Not a lot of info on their site but did email the company on Saturday and they responded Sunday so thats promising. Unfortunately they didn't answer my questions. I am looking for the coverage of these units at 8', obviously these shades are made to reflect off the shade itself and the walls so there must be a sweet spot dependant on the height of the shade from the canopy and from the canopy to the walls. The stats on the company webpage is for 10-15' ceilings. Hopefully they get back to me. I have to say as impressive (and I mean IMPRESSIVE) as your set up is I do find it discouraging! Is the coverage of these units so bad that you need 12 units for 90sqf or 1 per plant as you have it now? Thanks
This grow is going to be epic!

Response

Hey tableshaper thanks for stopping by. I wouldn't get too discouraged if I were you. My set up is really at the far end of what is required in terms of lighting (by design). With that said and as a general rule of thumb (if you follow Cycloptics recommendations) it will take about three of these fixtures to provide the same amount of light as a single 1KW DE HPS. Call Cycloptics and talk to Flip. He's very helpful.

Regarding the question of fixture distance to canopy and distance from walls, I think the only way to know is to get a model from Flip or buy the lights and use a light meter to determine the answer. i know that sucks, but I think it's the only way. Maybe Flip will have more insight.

My approach is to start with a target DLI (daily light integral which is moles per day). Once you know how many hours per day you will provide light during veg and flower, you can then pick a target PPFD range that will meet the DLI goal. This in turn will determine how many fixtures you will need for a given space.

As an example, I wanted about 45 DLI or greater during veg and flower so the calcs looked like this:

Veg DLI = 650 μmoles/m2/s (PPFD) x 19 hours x .0036 = 44.46 moles/day

Flower DLI = 1,020 μmoles/m2/s x 12 x .0036 = 44.06 moles/day

From all of that Cycloptics was able to run a model and tell me how many fixtures I would need to deliver the target PPFD range at various irradiance planes. According to the model they provided me, the twelve fixtures in my room will provide about 650 PPFD at 12" from the floor and 1,020 PPFD at 64" above the floor.

During flower the PPFD should be anywhere from 700-1000. DLI higher than 50 is considered by many to be in the land of diminishing returns. I think the limit in the outdoors is about 55-60 for a couple of months in the summer in the southwestern US.

Here's an estimator you could use to start an approximation. I believe it is just an average, but may be useful. It's not for Greenbeams but it is for ePapillion's CMH and HPS fixtures.

Very long winded, I know, but you have to start with how much light you want to deliver and how you want to deliver it. Scrappy, an ICmag member, used 3 Greenbeams in a 5 x 10 and pulled a little over 3 lbs (no CO2). He kept the lights relatively close to the canopy and moved them up as the plants grew (I think). Just check out his grow in the link below. It's a fairly long thread so you''ll just have to dig through it. There's also a few other threads that you will find helpful.

Scrappy's thread

Cycloptics Greenbeams 315w owners thread

Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

tableshaper · Feb 16, 2016

OK, timmur recommended some light reading for me as a GB wannabe... this post being one. This post may be more appropriate as I am on a tighter budget than timmur. (Just joking I am seriously jealous) As of yet I haven't read anyone mentioning light rails? I've never used them before but ideally I would like to stick to a 4'X4-6-8, up to 12' Is it possible to use a light rail to get a little side to side action that would cover the 4' across on a 4'X12'. Do light rails work. Also I like having room to work so I will be building the room as a 7'X13' but plan on fabricating an Orca curtain to contain the plants... good idea???? Our loonie dollar sucks right now so I'm gun shy on these (new to me) lights. I've been using Gavita but want to expand a little.

timmur · Feb 16, 2016

I really like the Orca curtain. It should minimize the space you're trying to light and yet give you space to work when moved out of the way. This really helps manage the lighting budget when you're buying Greenbeams! You should be able to max out the PPFD for less. I believe you should maintain a distance of at least foot outside the canopy for best reflection using Greenbeams and Orca. The closer you keep the fixtures to the plants the higher the PPFD, but you trade away some uniformity.

tableshaper · Feb 16, 2016

The whole taking in the reflective properties is what makes these lights appealing to me. timmur... how do you feel about light rails? One GB with just a foot of side to side action just to get that extra coverage. I know your answer but..tell me what I wanna hear! I'm sure I could MacGyver a single light suspending rod over the 12' so I would only have to use 2 light movers for all the lights. Hmmmm I'm liking this plan, it's in my head... no going back!

rives · Feb 16, 2016

tableshaper said:
The whole taking in the reflective properties is what makes these lights appealing to me. timmur... how do you feel about light rails? One GB with just a foot of side to side action just to get that extra coverage. I know your answer but..tell me what I wanna hear! I'm sure I could MacGyver a single light suspending rod over the 12' so I would only have to use 2 light movers for all the lights. Hmmmm I'm liking this plan, it's in my head... no going back!

It is an interesting idea.

Moving the lights around echoes Cycloptic's concept do a degree in the elimination of shadowing and multiple point-sources of light. However, the total ppfd that the plants are going to receive will be substantially less. I would suspect that the results would be a bit more than you would see with fixed lighting and reduced fixture count, but substantially less than you would get following Cycloptic's model.

Keep us posted!

McKush · Feb 16, 2016

timmur said:
McKush asked me to post this reply to a question that was asked in my thread in the sig below. I was asked about the coverage of Greenbeams and I replied with what I know, but others may have more to offer so here's the question and my response. Please feel free to chime in as I pointed tableshaper to this thread.

Question

Response

Thanks bud, appreciate your adding that info to this thread.

I wish I had a light meter!

if i use the epap calculator and 3x3.5 with the GreenPower bulb I only get 36.68 Moles/day in the veg room, well below your target. I have no idea what bulb height that equates to however so i need a meter.

If i use the daylight bulb setting I get 33.63 moles/day in veg (18/6)

in my flower room (12/12), using their calculator but for the gavita fixture, I get 781 umoles/m2s which comes out to 33.74 which is LESS than i have in veg! but when I put 850 umoles/m2s into the calc, it doesn't impact the end result in moles significantly 36 something. 1000 umoles/m2s brings it to 43.2 moles/day which is much better. just don't know what my real numbers are now. need to search and see if I can use some published values for the gavita

FR result was a shock to me since it is natural to think that the gavita puts out way more and should be stronger - however the length of the day is what really drives the moles.

I also think it is conservative estimate since the gavita tends to focus more light in a smaller area than the epap reflector and many people measure a greater output from the gavitas than the epaps.

my numbers are coming out well below your design point.

timmur · Feb 16, 2016

You could always veg 20 or 22 hours. Also in flower your plants will have more PPFD as they will be taller. It would be nice to know the PPFD at various irradiance planes cause then you can linearize it to calculate for any distance from the fixture. Many people would be satisfied with high 30s and up to 40 DLI. I'm just really trying to max out production per square foot and that takes max light.

You could try to approximate from a known good model. I have one for my room and one for a 4 x 8 space. Let me know if want to take a run at it.

McKush · Feb 17, 2016

I dont dont know if your model will work with my room but you can pm me the data or post it here. Ive got just 1 GB in 38x45x92" and my growing plane starts at 21" which is the top of my netpots and the growing plane goes to 41 at the minimum to 50 tho 55 inches sometimes. I use it for multi cultivar vegging. I dont flip the plant shorter than 20 but sometimes go larger and then bend them down in flower around 25".

I often have plants at various ages so the plane is a bit wide for a small space

timmur · Feb 17, 2016

McKush said:
I dont dont know if your model will work with my room but you can pm me the data or post it here. Ive got just 1 GB in 38x45x92" and my growing plane starts at 21" which is the top of my netpots and the growing plane goes to 41 at the minimum to 50 tho 55 inches sometimes. I use it for multi cultivar vegging. I dont flip the plant shorter than 20 but sometimes go larger and then bend them down in flower around 25".

I often have plants at various ages so the plane is a bit wide for a small space

So I did a multiple regression with some known models and here's your formula for approximating PPFD. You have to input the number of fixtures, the square feet of the room, and the distance from the fixture. I'd post the spreadsheet, but this site won't allow it.

PPFD = (Fixtures*149.8671373)+(Sqft*-13.06732388)+(Distance*-8.528168737)+693.9306479

With your room at 40 inches from the fixture you get 347.4966.
With your room at 20 inches from the fixture you get 518.0599.

Remember the closer you get, the more variance you'll get in PPFD. I didn't try to predict that.

Here's the regression results:

Multiple R = 0.995208251
R Square = 0.990439463
Adjusted R Square = 0.98326906
Standard Error = 61.75648041
Observations = 8

Here's the raw data from the models:

Ez Rider · Feb 17, 2016

Just got my last ballast. I've got all 6 set up, and it looks good. I'm a little worried temperature control, but all I can do is see how it goes. Worst case scenario, I'll have to reconfigure and run just 5. I hit 82F under the lamps(all 6) today. I'm still at 18/6, so hopefully when I run just after sundown the temps(lights on) stay under 80F. Even 5 should outperform my 2 1000w hps, but I'd like to run all 6. I think I'll be able to pull off at least 1 run with 6, then maybe 5 for the hottest months, then back to 6. Hopefully I just being paranoid. Today was about as hot as it ever gets around here(~100F), and 6 C/G's hit 82.5F with my a/c running full with the sun up. After sundown, I'm looking at 75F outside room temp, and 81.5F under the lamps. The outside temp is still dropping. I'm going 6a-12p at the moment, but I'll go 8p-8a in flower, to chase the lower temps.

My plants are just getting used to the brighter light...they were under t-5's before. Also, I let the coco get pretty dry a few times during the rebuild. I've been watering to runoff every day for a few days now, and the plants are cheering up. Here's a few pics of where I'm at now. Hoping to go into flower within the week... The last pic is my new veg tent.

timmur · Feb 17, 2016

Wow I like your set up EZ. Temps are looking pretty good. You"re not running CO2 are you?

McKush · Feb 17, 2016

timmur said:
So I did a multiple regression with some known models and here's your formula for approximating PPFD. You have to input the number of fixtures, the square feet of the room, and the distance from the fixture. I'd post the spreadsheet, but this site won't allow it.

PPFD = (Fixtures*149.8671373)+(Sqft*-13.06732388)+(Distance*-8.528168737)+693.9306479

With your room at 40 inches from the fixture you get 347.4966.
With your room at 20 inches from the fixture you get 518.0599.

Remember the closer you get, the more variance you'll get in PPFD. I didn't try to predict that.

Here's the regression results:

Multiple R = 0.995208251
R Square = 0.990439463
Adjusted R Square = 0.98326906
Standard Error = 61.75648041
Observations = 8

Here's the raw data from the models:

View Image

Hey Brother - thanks for the info. I took your extrapolation and plugged it into XLS. Here is the results:

These results should be close enough imho but if anyone feels different please explain why not.

I can definitely understand how to position my GB relative to how much DLI I want them to get. In there are some sweet spots it looks like.

The chart doesn't factor for other important things like heat, etc... so hopefully no one takes this chart literally and puts the GB within 5" of the plant...

Ez Rider · Feb 17, 2016

timmur said:
Wow I like your set up EZ. Temps are looking pretty good. You"re not running CO2 are you?

Glad you like it :tiphat:

It's still something of a work in progress, we'll see how it turns out together.

No co2. I've always wanted to, but can't think of a practical way to do it. The tent sits in an 18'x16' room, so I'd have to enrich the entire room. This would take a co2 generator, and I don't think the a/c will handle any more extra heat load, especially in the summer. Spring time, we have the occasional 90F day, but it's mostly in the 70'sF daytime, 60'sF at night. Summer can kick up to 90F+ days and 80F+ nights, and stay there for several weeks.

Health is my other concern. I sleep in the same room as the tent, and my sleep hours will coincide with the enrichment hours. I'm somewhat leary of spending time in a co2 enriched atmosphere, let alone sleeping in it.

Temps looking pretty good at the moment. Lights have been on for 1.5 hours, 68F in my room, 75.5F under the lights, no a/c, just open windows at the moment, but's it's only 730am. As the day warms up, the a/c will have to come on, at least till dusk. The system definitely runs a few degrees cooler when the sun is down, even if outside temps are the same. The weather is cooling off for the moment in any event. Supposed to rain tomorrow.

The plants seem to be mostly over the shock of the brighter lights. They were definitely upset at the initial move from under the t-5's, not to mention suffering from underwatering beforehand. Really hoping to get them into flower by the end of the week, or I'll have to top them...again. I'm much more height constrained than I've ever been before. I'll take a few pics on friday for comparison.

I'd like to finish with a shout for Cycloptics. Their customer service is outstanding. I had some damage to my order, most likely caused by the savage baggage masters at UPS. Instead of blaming UPS and shirking responsibility, Cycloptics was very responsive to the problem, and replaced the damaged items immediately. I didn't want to mention this issue until they'd had the opportunity to make it right...they have. You're dealing directly with either the owner or his brother at all times, and they're both very pleasant to deal with. I would recommend them to friends.

McKush · Feb 17, 2016

I touched up the resulting table again. I arbitrarily set a use point of 30-45 DLI and highlighted in light blue the different combinations that would theoretically yield it.

Before anyone gets their knickers in a stitch - These figures are not meant to be exact and we know they are not. I'm using Timmur's extrapolations from data he received - so from an analysis of multi-fixture GBs in a big room to which I'm applying to a single fixture in a small veg space, the table does not reflect the true numbers in my room (certainly not yours since the calculation involves grow area in sq.ft.) but am just using the table as a rough guide line for my space. There may be other inaccuracies that I'm not aware of also. This is not meant to be literal but hopefully in the "close enough" category for my needs.

This whole exercise has been very useful, thanks a mil Timmur

All distances are in Inches. Measurements are from the bottom of the GB to the plane indicated by distance.

what I may do is also go to Cycloptics for a room layout and analysis and then I could maybe compare results, but honestly I think that chart is probably in hand grenade territory already.

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