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Old 03-14-2014, 06:43 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchHempCBD View Post
  1. Does the pollination of the female hemp flower lower the percentage and/or amount of CBD in that flower? Am I correct in assuming that a part of what could have been flower material with high CBD content is transformed into seeds with very low CBD content? And so in pollinated flowers the total amount of CBD is lower as opposed to unpollinated?
  2. Am I correct in assuming that choosing for a dioecious variety enables more control over avoiding pollination as opposed to a monoecious variety? At the stage that sex differentiation takes place males can be taken out manually in a small scale agricultural setup. If female and male plants arise 50/50 ratio this results in sowing at for example 50 kg/ha. In doing this the targeted density of 25 kg/ha of female hemp flowers is reached.
  3. Could there be an advantage in choosing a monoecious variety with a high female predominance (e.g. > 85% female and < 15% monoecious and/or males). Some variety similar to the Canadian hemp variety Alyssa (though not EU certified…)? In that case only 15% or less of the plants have to be removed manually.
Hi DutchHempCBD
Regarding your questions:
1: Yes, it will lower the yield per acre because unseeded hemp produces large amounts of new flowers (aka sinsemilla) thereby increasing the harvest yield and total CBD. Although, the amount resin per gram flowers may remain the same; it's not so clear and lacks solid data.
2: Correct. True monoecious will lead to complete pollination but with dioecious already one single male may pollinate your whole batch! Culling males is possible but VERY laborious. It has been done in the early hemp breeding programs but they went to unisex plants. Maybe you can get true unisex plants (this are the F1's of dioecious females with monoecious plants as pollen donors)? Though, seems to me as if the F2 seeds are the ones sold for fibre production ;( . Still, culling a few males is way easier than 50%. Also, you'd have to buy only half the seeds .
3: Correct, see point 2. Most French varieties belong to this group. I couldn't find hard evidence for the statements about the exact amount of females in these hybrids. Sometimes it's mentioned female predominant, sometimes 50:50... the few males in true female predominant crosses are often from stray pollen from true males forgotten to cull in the process.

You may have a chance with Finola and other seed hemp varieties because the males mature well before the females; in part a wanted trait because that way the males are gone once the seeds mature and it gets easier to harvest. Other varieties, especially the pure fibre types, mature together so that you don't waist good male fibres and there you'd have trouble culling the males in time .

Something else to consider:
It is often stated that this and that variety contains high amounts of CBD (like Finola and Carmagnola). I don't really believe that they contain a lot, it's at best a bit more than others. Apart from the varieties bred for super low cannabinoid content, hemp contains more CBD than THC but as you know only a few % in total. With some varieties like Finola and Carmagnola you have to be careful: The THC content is really limit and increasing CBD will also increase THC... but you won't do selective breeding over several generations, right?

BTW Eastern European varieties are often tall fibre plants not suited for Dutch climate but rather for Italy and Spain.
Go with French varieties if you like monoecious ones. From what I've seen, you can only get seeds of these in France even if some dioecious ones are registered: The latter are likely registered because they are used in breeding of hybrids.
Current German varieties seem to be very low in overall cannabinoid content (like many French ones too) and often monoecious too.
Canadian ones (some are Finola crosses, BTW) might be nice in terms of climate and maturation but the legality in EU...

Besides, did you realise that the numbers in the names of most varieties indicate maturity and/or flower onset? That said, go for low numbers!
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:50 PM #12
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Little question so that I can complete my own list of hemp cultivars:
The Chamaeleon you mentioned seems to be dioecious; how can it be female predominant at the same time? Do you have further info on that cause I couldn't find much useful?
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Old 03-14-2014, 11:29 PM #13
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You where right....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Ornamental View Post
Little question so that I can complete my own list of hemp cultivars:
The Chamaeleon you mentioned seems to be dioecious; how can it be female predominant at the same time? Do you have further info on that cause I couldn't find much useful?
Ahh, upon further investigation I found that this variety is indeed monoecious. But it apperently does have a high female predominance....
I have a link where you can read up on this variety. Originally this is in Dutch, so that can explain why you didn't find it. Click here for Google Translation. Maybe this would be an interesting variety to check out, it grows in the Netherlands and has high female count..... it's mainly grown for fibre though, I don't know what that says about the quality of flowers....
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:03 AM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Ornamental View Post
1: Yes, it will lower the yield per acre because unseeded hemp produces large amounts of new flowers (aka sinsemilla) thereby increasing the harvest yield and total CBD. Although, the amount resin per gram flowers may remain the same; it's not so clear and lacks solid data.
2: Correct. True monoecious will lead to complete pollination but with dioecious already one single male may pollinate your whole batch! Culling males is possible but VERY laborious. It has been done in the early hemp breeding programs but they went to unisex plants. Maybe you can get true unisex plants (this are the F1's of dioecious females with monoecious plants as pollen donors)? Though, seems to me as if the F2 seeds are the ones sold for fibre production ;( . Still, culling a few males is way easier than 50%. Also, you'd have to buy only half the seeds .
3: Correct, see point 2. Most French varieties belong to this group. I couldn't find hard evidence for the statements about the exact amount of females in these hybrids. Sometimes it's mentioned female predominant, sometimes 50:50... the few males in true female predominant crosses are often from stray pollen from true males forgotten to cull in the process.
Thanks for the answers. Obviously the less manual labour the better. Keeps the costs down. So the best thing would be to get a variety with high true female occurrence (dioecious, monoecious or hybrid). And cull the plants with male flowers. It would surely lead to the most high quality end product if successful. Though, I'm really doubting this practise. It doesn't seem like a realistic agricultural practise, especially not when up scaling from 1/10th of an hectare to say 10 hectare. And even if we would manage to cull all the males, who's to say that some pollen from a hemp farm 10-50 km down the road doesn't pollinate the entire batch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Ornamental View Post
You may have a chance with Finola and other seed hemp varieties because the males mature well before the females; in part a wanted trait because that way the males are gone once the seeds mature and it gets easier to harvest. Other varieties, especially the pure fibre types, mature together so that you don't waist good male fibres and there you'd have trouble culling the males in time .
We just ordered the Finola seeds. Going by what I read yesterday about the Chamaeleon is also an interesting option. For one it grown in Dutch climate and secondly it has a high female occurrence. Do you have any suggestions of specific varieties on the EU list that have a high female occurrance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Ornamental View Post
With some varieties like Finola and Carmagnola you have to be careful: The THC content is really limit and increasing CBD will also increase THC... but you won't do selective breeding over several generations, right?
We will not be doing any selective breeding. For now that's beyond the scope of our capacity. We’ll just be buying sowing seeds.

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Originally Posted by Only Ornamental View Post
BTW Eastern European varieties are often tall fibre plants not suited for Dutch climate but rather for Italy and Spain. Go with French varieties if you like monoecious ones. From what I've seen, you can only get seeds of these in France even if some dioecious ones are registered: The latter are likely registered because they are used in breeding of hybrids. Current German varieties seem to be very low in overall cannabinoid content (like many French ones too) and often monoecious too. Canadian ones (some are Finola crosses, BTW) might be nice in terms of climate and maturation but the legality in EU...
Yeah, the Eastern EU varieties are not an option. The French strains are an option. I know of one company in the Netherlands that breeds the French Epsilon 68, Fedora 17 and Futura 75 specifically for the production of CBD ‘rich’ hemp juice. The juice is made from the leaves and flowers of these varieties. Correct me if I’m wrong but there are no EU certified German hemp strains…. Right? What about the Polish strains?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Ornamental View Post
Besides, did you realise that the numbers in the names of most varieties indicate maturity and/or flower onset? That said, go for low numbers!
Can you explain why you think it’s best to go for the low numbers?

Thank you Only Ornamental. You're of great help!
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Old 03-15-2014, 01:25 PM #15
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If you would want to cull less males you'd have to go with a female predominant variety (aka hybrid, unisex or in toker language 'feminised strains'). In case of real monoecious plants, every single one has male and female flowers.
That's why it would be interesting to re-invent the once found but lost male sterile lines because breeding unisex plants is really a thing of luck and labour (because pollen flies far). Every 'female only' hybrid is just a female predominant one because there are always a few true males somewhere pollinating a little bit, hence resulting in no pure female line. Lets say you'd get 5% pollinated, that wouldn't bother you, right? But then again, I couldn't find enough data on this subject and many female predominant ones are only 50:50 female/monoecious and that doesn't help much.

Finola may be the best variety insofar that it is likely the only variety grown exclusively organically and which can cope with the relatively low nutrient content of certified organic soil.
I have no helpful idea on EU strains; look at the end of the ‘Common Catalogue of Varieties of Agricultural Plant Species’ where you find all the institutes/authorities selling hemp seeds. They should know more about what they have and what could fit your bill .

Don't take the Epsilon, they are a German bred variety (although registered in France like all the other German ones... no idea why) with very low cannabinoid content. The other two may work; standard female predominant Fibrimon hybrids. BTW Fédora 17 grows very well in Switzerland (well, it's also the only legal one but that's beside the point). Don't know about Polish varieties; the climate seems about right for you and Beniko is also registered in the Netherlands.

Why the low numbers? The lower the number (within a variety), the earlier flower onset and harvest . You can not compare a Fédora 17 with a Futura 75 though... No clue how and why they choose the numbers.
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Old 03-15-2014, 02:39 PM #16
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Very interesting, so I guess the next step is to find the highest CBD producing hemp strain (that is registered as legal?)...Isn't the legality based solely on THC production being below a certain percentage? Therefore what are the steps to "register" a plant as legal, for example a very low THC 1/10 cannatonic? Just throwing around ideas here.
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Old 03-15-2014, 03:58 PM #17
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AFAIK registration takes a while (years) and starts with an official experimental plot/field accompanied by rigorous THC testing. Registration is only possible after several years with all specimens below the legal limit.
And you're right, CBD is of no interest for the authorities but THC is often at 5 to 10% of it, resulting (with an example limit of 0.2% THC) in 2 to 4% CBD. And this is the common concentration in hemp ;( .
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Old 03-16-2014, 09:45 AM #18
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Overlooked your message....

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldchuck View Post
You raise some interesting questions. Your first regarding the possible CBD levels in pollinated and unpollinated flowers I can't answer but I would ask you what sort of testing arrangements are you making to quantify your results?

Going with dioecious or monoecious deserves some analysis. I have no experience with monoecious types but there are big advantages to them for large crops planted and harvested with contemporary field machinery. For your small scale experiments (and mine) I would go with dioecious and pull the males manually. I'll leave my males and make seed. There is nothing more nutritious than hemp seed.

In your 1,000 sq M patch I assume you will be only planting one variety? In order to do some controlled breeding you would need smaller patches and strict pollen control.
Thanks for your reply and your 2 cents.

Around harvest time we'll send a test sample to a lab specialised in testing cannabis. As far as I could gather from their website they use GC and HPLC. Maybe we could do a test between a pollinated and unpollinated flowers....

We will most likely just keep it to Finola, but not 100% decided on that yet. There will be no breeding just growing.
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Old 03-16-2014, 10:30 AM #19
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Choices....

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Originally Posted by Only Ornamental View Post
.... That's why it would be interesting to re-invent the once found but lost male sterile lines because breeding unisex plants is really a thing of luck and labour (because pollen flies far). Every 'female only' hybrid is just a female predominant one because there are always a few true males somewhere pollinating a little bit, hence resulting in no pure female line. Lets say you'd get 5% pollinated, that wouldn't bother you, right? But then again, I couldn't find enough data on this subject and many female predominant ones are only 50:50 female/monoecious and that doesn't help much.
Thanks for your hemp wisdom. Yeah.... female only would be nice. And no partial pollination isn't a problem. I just don't want the flowers to turn into a big bush of seeds. I know for a fact that the THC and CBD content of seeds is VERY low. I feel that part of the energy that would otherwise go into creating flowers will go into seeds leading to lower CBD content.

It's such a shame that there isn't like one BIG database on all the hemp varieties, how they grow best, what the cannabinoid content is, what they can be used for etc. One of these days I'll contact the people behind the Chamaeleon variety and ask what the female percentage and cannabinoid content is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Ornamental View Post
Finola may be the best variety insofar that it is likely the only variety grown exclusively organically and which can cope with the relatively low nutrient content of certified organic soil.
I have no helpful idea on EU strains; look at the end of the ‘Common Catalogue of Varieties of Agricultural Plant Species’ where you find all the institutes/authorities selling hemp seeds. They should know more about what they have and what could fit your bill .
The soil that we are growing on is one of best agricultural soils in the world. Very fertile! So we are not to worried about that. If needed additional organic fertilisation is possible.

A couple of weeks ago I called to the main French seed company.... no luck. The guy ONLY spoke French. I guess I have to call one more time to see if I get lucky and speak English with someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Ornamental View Post
Don't take the Epsilon, they are a German bred variety (although registered in France like all the other German ones... no idea why) with very low cannabinoid content. The other two may work; standard female predominant Fibrimon hybrids. BTW Fédora 17 grows very well in Switzerland (well, it's also the only legal one but that's beside the point). Don't know about Polish varieties; the climate seems about right for you and Beniko is also registered in the Netherlands.
Pfff... choices, choices.... yeah, I think a Polish variety would also work out. What do you think about the monoecious Tygra ->
Tygra guaranties high yield of straw, seed and fiber. It is characterized by the shortest vegetation period among all Polish cultivars. LINK
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Old 03-16-2014, 12:01 PM #20
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What did you think that people speak in France? English? German? ROFLMAO!!!!
Call 'em as often and as long as you want; It'll be close to a miracle if you'd find someone who understands not only English but also speaks it in an understandable manner.
Worst case, write me a PM and I'll translate it for you so that you can send them an email .
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