Extreme Foxtailing of Tropical Sativas when Grown Indoors

ZanzibarDawa · Feb 10, 2016

yoss33 said:
Congratulations for the thread, ZanzibarDawa

I myself have pondered on this topic, though I haven't considered some of the factors you suggest. Foxtailing indoors is only a part of the complex of differences in flowering in- and outdoors, together with the leafier buds, sturdier leaves and stems, quicker maturation, earthier smell, etc. that I observe outdoors. All factors are involved here.

My speculation is that day-night temperature fluctuation plays an important role with foxtailing, or more specifically - the presence of a cold (night) period. Plants grow more compact in cold weather. Perhaps without a cold period, some hormone responsible for reacting to cold and limiting stretching will not be produced.
I have seen foxtailing indoors with plants grown in soil (same food as outdoors), grown both under HPS (many reds) and strong cold-white LEDs (many blues), so it doesn't seem that light spectrum is the cause, unless UV-B is involved.
The only time that I have seen foxtailing outdoors was a quite extreme sativa at the balcony of a friend, where temperatures don't drop so low in the nights. And no - even the purest Hazes and Thais don't foxtail in my outdoors, but this doesn't mean they will not foxtail in the tropics where it doesn't get as cold in the nights as at 45 degrees away from the equator in October and November.

Thanks for the info! We might be on to sth. here. What are your day/night temperatures? Also, can you rule out other factors than temperature with the plant on your friends balcony? Do you use your garden soil for your indoor grow and if so, what soil type is that?

I could run an experiment if temperature delta day/night really is the key as I have to heat in the winter, so I could lower night temps pretty easily.
Maybe the change in light hours/day has an influence too, so a constant 12/12 or 11/13 might add to the problem?

ZD

ZanzibarDawa · Feb 10, 2016

Having thought about it a bit more, I might have a bit of a theory. But first a question @yoss33 or whoever can shed some light: Do you grow or did you grow in pots outdoors (to hopefully get this factor out of the way) and if so did it have any influence on foxtailing?

ZD

yoss33 · Feb 10, 2016

ZanzibarDawa said:
Thanks for the info! We might be on to sth. here. What are your day/night temperatures? Also, can you rule out other factors than temperature with the plant on your friends balcony? Do you use your garden soil for your indoor grow and if so, what soil type is that?

I could run an experiment if temperature delta day/night really is the key as I have to heat in the winter, so I could lower night temps pretty easily.
Maybe the change in light hours/day has an influence too, so a constant 12/12 or 11/13 might add to the problem?

ZD

I would say our night temperatures drop to 10*C in September, 5*C in October and 0*C in November when the tropical sativas flower. First morning frosts can be as early as late October.
To be honest, the soil I have used indoors (mainly peat) is not the same as the soil outdoors, so that might play a role.

ZanzibarDawa said:
Having thought about it a bit more, I might have a bit of a theory. But first a question @yoss33 or whoever can shed some light: Do you grow or did you grow in pots outdoors (to hopefully get this factor out of the way) and if so did it have any influence on foxtailing?

ZD

Yes, the one plant (Zamaldelica) that I've seen foxtail on the balcony was in a pot, like the other plants around it and like it's supposed to be on a balcony

And the Hazes and Thais that I've seen not foxtail were in the ground, not pots... so your theory seems supported

ZanzibarDawa · Feb 10, 2016

yoss33 said:
I would say our night temperatures drop to 10*C in September, 5*C in October and 0*C in November when the tropical sativas flower. First morning frosts can be as early as late October.
To be honest, the soil I have used indoors (mainly peat) is not the same as the soil outdoors, so that might play a role.

Yes, the one plant (Zamaldelica) that I've seen foxtail on the balcony was in a pot, like the other plants around it and like it's supposed to be on a balcony
And the Hazes and Thais that I've seen not foxtail were in the ground, not pots... so your theory seems supported

So the main two differences are pots vs. soil and lamps vs. sun. A nice experiment would be to run some plants outdoors in the same pots used indoors, some with normal soil, some with the same used indoors. That way we could isolate the lighting factor pretty much. Btw. what are your day/night temp deltas?
With lighting it gets a bit more complicated, or more precisely a complete mess. We have different spectrums including the IR and UV spectrum, varying intensity during the day, varying intensity from day to day and a ever so slightly changing photoperiod.
Not even getting started on varying spectrum in the course of a day. A few factors we could approximate in indoor environments, others clearly not (practiclly).

I would guess that the foxtailing is caused by a combination of lighting and grow medium factors. Ideally we would find a few people who are willing to run experiments or even better, already have run relevant experiments to speed up the research. I'd be happy to play with temperatures, or more precisely with day/night temp delta.

ZD

Collembola · Feb 11, 2016

i don't think pots make a difference (????).

i can't see if it was a clone ?

but phenotype variation would be the obvious answer as to why the "different plant in the pot was foxtailing" whereas "the other plants around it" (also in pots > ?????) didn't ???.

hopefully mistaken ??????

-------------

there is no "main things", as different genetics respond differently to different environments.

example being, low lumens of UV-B spectrum, will make a plant stretch more then HIGH lumens of red spectrum...

(similar lumens, the red one stretches more)

it's all relative.

Collembola · Feb 11, 2016

also, the one in the pot will need feeding, whereas the ones in the ground will not, or not so much (generally speaking).

and commercial nutrients are usually high N, because noobs start crying if there plants aren't really green....

ZanzibarDawa · Feb 11, 2016

Collembola said:
i don't think pots make a difference (????).

i can't see if it was a clone ?

but phenotype variation would be the obvious answer as to why the "different plant in the pot was foxtailing" whereas "the other plants around it" (also in pots > ?????) didn't ???.

hopefully mistaken ??????

-------------

there is no "main things", as different genetics respond differently to different environments.

example being, low lumens of UV-B spectrum, will make a plant stretch more then HIGH lumens of red spectrum...

(similar lumens, the red one stretches more)

it's all relative.

I think you mean genotype variation. There I would agree, some are prone to foxtail, others you have a hard time forcing them to show a single foxtail. This discussion is more about the reasons of specific phenotype expression (foxtailing) in different environments. But I agree, we would need an outdoor experiment with clones, one run in the ground one in a pot (or even several pot sizes). That way we could isolate the influence of pots on foxtailing.
Regarding light spectrum, it is well known that red leads to more stretch, but does it also lead to more foxtails, and have you got any insight on the influence of UVB?

Collembola said:
also, the one in the pot will need feeding, whereas the ones in the ground will not, or not so much (generally speaking).

and commercial nutrients are usually high N, because noobs start crying if there plants aren't really green....

The high N certainly can cause foxtailing, no doubt, but low N does not prevent foxtailing by itself. That said, I think you are on to something here. The EC would have to be higher in the pot due to a more limited rootzone. That might play in to it too, hence the suggestion of experiments with different pot sizes.

ZD

Collembola · Feb 11, 2016

no,

i mean phenotype variation, as within "strain",

like how a thai dominant phenotype of zamaldelica, may well be more prone to foxtail, then a more compact malawai one.

genotype, referes to a different set of genes, hence the word...

phenotype refers to how the genotype resoponds to the environment, or atleast human perception of it.

progeneny of the same parents share the same genes.

> i don't know what the fudge you are on about.

also, you can not agree, with an incorrect assumption, of what i am saying.

(that's called ignoring what people are saying, and then saying something else)

bye

ZanzibarDawa · Feb 11, 2016

Collembola said:
no,

i mean phenotype variation, as within "strain",

like how a thai dominant phenotype of zamaldelica, may well be more prone to foxtail, then a more compact malawai one.

genotype, referes to a different set of genes, hence the word...

phenotype refers to how the genotype resoponds to the environment, or atleast human perception of it.

Clones share the same genotype, but not necessarily the same phenotype. So a Thai leaning Zamaldelica might foxtail indoors quite heavily but might not show any foxtails outdoors. In that case one genotype would express two phenotypes depending on the environment.

Collembola said:
progeneny of the same parents share the same genes.

That is plainly wrong. What you are saying is that siblings are genetically identical.

Collembola said:
> i don't know what the fudge you are on about.

also, you can not agree, with an incorrect assumption, of what i am saying.

(that's called ignoring what people are saying, and then saying something else)

bye

I did not have any intention of ignoring what you were saying, but misinterpretation happens and is no reason to imply malevolence.

yoss33 · Feb 11, 2016

Collembola, why you insist on repeating the same statement over and over without anyone arguing with you?
Yes, the strain (the genotype) is very important - we all agree that sativas are much more prone to foxtailing than indicas, the more extreme the sativa, the more probable it is to foxtail.
The subject of this thread is obvious from the title - what environmental factors cause this phenotypic expression (foxtailing) in the extreme sativas grown indoors. Instead of arguing on terms (genotype and phenotype) we are not native with, we can simplify the question:
Why the same clone foxtails indoors but not outdoors? Apart from nitrogen overdosing.

Here's an example - the same SSSDH Ojd's cut, grown out- and indoors.

yoss33 · Feb 11, 2016

I tried to find photos of the Ojd's SSSDH cut flowered indoors that is without nitrogen lushness, but no success

People like to fertilize!

Dropped Cat · Feb 11, 2016

Zamaldelica close up:

Foxtail in cold temps, but no lack in potency. Few weeks before chop.

Micro with 165w PL L.

ZanzibarDawa · Feb 12, 2016

yoss33 said:
C Here's an example - the same SSSDH Ojd's cut, grown out- and indoors.
View Image

View Image

Nice pics, that is exactly what I mean, perfect example. Would be nice if we could find out the main causes, could improve the management of sativas indoors...

Dropped Cat said:
Zamaldelica close up:

View Image

Foxtail in cold temps, but no lack in potency. Few weeks before chop.

Micro with 165w PL L.

Thanks for the pic, the foxtailing looks to be in the normal range for Zamaldelica I guess but outdoors it certainly would have looked differently. What were the temps like, especially day/night delta?

ZD

Phineas Freak · Feb 12, 2016

I once saw a SSH that foxtailed alot. It was growing in too much heat, too dry, day and night.

Maybe it is a bit of a similar effect as seedlings stretching if they grow with too little light or too much heat.

Dropped Cat · Feb 13, 2016

ZanzibarDawa said:
Thanks for the pic, the foxtailing looks to be in the normal range for Zamaldelica I guess but outdoors it certainly would have looked differently. What were the temps like, especially day/night delta?

ZD

Temps for this round are 76F day, 56F night on average. When
the difference in day and night temps are closer the foxtail is
not there.

Bud grown in mild temps, with 10F difference in day and night temps:

Bud from a cold grow:

Same mum plant, grow medium, watts and nutes.

Phineas Freak · Feb 13, 2016

I wouldn't have expected this. Thanks for the pictures.

ZanzibarDawa · Feb 13, 2016

Phineas Freak said:
I once saw a SSH that foxtailed alot. It was growing in too much heat, too dry, day and night.

Maybe it is a bit of a similar effect as seedlings stretching if they grow with too little light or too much heat.

Now that you mention seedlings....maybe we can try to solve this riddle from a more theoretical point of view.
I suspect something is causing a slight hormonal imbalance when growing indoors. Does anyone know if plants are more prone to hermie indoors than outdoors? If so I might have an idea what hormones could be involved, which would get us a leap into the right direction.

ZD

ZanzibarDawa · Feb 13, 2016

Dropped Cat said:
Temps for this round are 76F day, 56F night on average. When
the difference in day and night temps are closer the foxtail is
not there.

Bud grown in mild temps, with 10F difference in day and night temps:

View Image

Bud from a cold grow:

View Image

Same mum plant, grow medium, watts and nutes.

Thanks for those pics. Pretty much fits the general consensus that big day/night deltas encourage foxtailing.
On the other hand we have yoss33 who said that he sees no foxtailing with a cold period. Would love to know if it is more the delta or the absolute temps causing the foxtailing.

ZD

Phineas Freak · Feb 14, 2016

ZanzibarDawa said:
Does anyone know if plants are more prone to hermie indoors than outdoors?
ZD

Yes, they are. Not every outdoor strain can be grown indoors without hermies.
As an example you can follow the story of serious6. This strain is promoted for outdoor growing because some sparse plants may hermie indoors.

JohnKimble · Feb 14, 2016

ZanzibarDawa said:
As the title suggests this is about extreme foxtailing often seen on tropical sativas grown indoors.
I am not talking about some foxtailing here and there, what I mean is foxtails all over the place often in conjunction with other problems like never finishing, lower buds in the foxtails bleaching/wilting.

I hope it is OK to borrow a pic from ThaiBliss he posted in his great thread The Search For Trip Weed

I really wonder what the main causes are.

How can this plant be so large, it looks like a oaktree. lol

Extreme Foxtailing of Tropical Sativas when Grown Indoors

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