Living organic soil from start through recycling CONTINUED...

[Luther Burbank]

"Don't worry about a thing. Cause every little thing gonna be alright"

 

[Coba]

oh man ... 2 days later and I still have a headache.


I deserve it though.
sorry for them harsh vibes gentlemen.

 

[Luther Burbank]

It's quite alright Coba! Go get some coconut water in ya for that headache!

 

[HatchBrew]

How's everyones compost and worms going? Mine are living happy with vegetable scraps and cover crops right now. Enjoying the sun.

 

[ct guy2]

My view on rock dusts....yes, some may be "better" than others, but use what you can get locally and cheaply. Here in the Pacific NW it's glacial rock dust from Canada and basalt from the Columbia Gorge. If I was on the East Coast I'd probably be figuring out how to incorporate jersey greensand. Like Luther mentioned, you do need to realize the differences between the rock dusts or if you were to use dolomite then you need to account for the level of magnesium in it when calculating your soil mix. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. And I can vouch for Coot believing in sourcing local on rock dusts because we've had that conversation on the phone a couple of times. He's now using Oly Compost and basalt because I got him the specs on both and it's easy for us to source. Again, on the East Coast, it would probably be the Coast of Maine Lobster Compost or something like that.

Also, one thing I've learned over the years is that there are a million ways to grow a plant. Particularly this one. It's called a weed for a reason.

 

[Luther Burbank]

Coast of Maine Lobster unfortunately doesn't reach outside of New England as far as I know. Our major rock dust back east definitely is greensand, but there's lots of veins of basalt around appalachia and I'm not quite sure why it's more difficult to find fines. I know why it's so damn easy in Cascadia, basalt is everywhere. Milkyjoe I think was suggesting a good compost from PA that's likely available in the mid-Atlantic states. I'm also a fan of Oly. Good stuff.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

Okay... So folks hate on dolomite for the lead and cobalt? Those are a downside, but for all the leonardite or cobalt micronutrient already touted by soil enthusiasts in the name of balance, seems contradictory to argue dolomite as marginal imperative. Its a carbonate, a logical buffer. You can rely on clam shells or egg shells as your calcium carbonate, but why disregard the mag element of dolomite? If you have rich organic matter then dolomite is resulting magnesium complexation by carboxyl groups associated with that matter. Is it the word lime which frightens people? Fish seem to love it when aquariums use it to buffer pH.

I miss all the barley chatter in the thread before it was redirected.

 

[Coba]

That isn't the reason folks 'hate' on dolomite. nobody is saying don't use it. and nobody is hating on it.

it's just don't expect it to be an immediate source for cal/mag. the molecular bond between cal/mag in dolomite is very strong and (from the papers I've read) can take 6 months to a year to become available nutrients for your plants... one paper said even after 6 years in a truly 'dead' soil.

on the other hand dolomite lime will work instantly to buffer pH in a solution. (means as long as it's wet)

also, the ratio of Ca:Mg is like 4:1 in dolomite, where we are looking for a ratio of more like 10:1 Ca:Mg.

too much magnesium will "lock out" calcium and vise versa.

I use a cheap mix of Calcitic and Dolomite lime called lawn lime. I mix that with gypsum 75/25.

but don't just take my word for it.

The problem with Dolomite Lime (specifically) is manifested on several levels - not the least of which is the time required for this mineral compound to degrade which has to happen for the Calcium (Ca) to become available for CE (cation exchange). Then there's the issue with the ratio of Magnesium (Mg) to Calcium (Ca) - it's completely out of whack, i.e. the Mg levels are way too high.

Here's a mix you can put together at Home Depot for chump-change: Lily Miller Super Sweet (Limestone - Calcium Carbonate) and Gypsum and you want to buy the Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) in the garden department and NOT in the home repair department - two different forms of Gypsum.

Here's the recipe:

2x Limestone
1x Gypsum

Mix thoroughly and apply at the same rate you do/did with Dolomite Lime. Now you have elemental Calcium (Ca), Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) and Sulfur which will partially be converted to Sulfuric Acid which is necessary to deconstruct these mineral compounds making them available to the plant's roots.

HTH

CC

Note: You could replace the Limestone with either Oyster Shell Powder (pure Calcium Carbonate) or Agricultural Lime (aka Calcite Lime) which is also a pure form of Calcium Carbonate. But the above recipe will get you the benefits you're looking for in a liming agent.

 

[VerdantGreen]

ive been using half and half dolomite and gypsum which seems to work really well. 5g of the mixture to each litre of soil.

on the ratio lime /magnesium i think there are may more lime giving ingredients in a soil mix such as EWC, bone meal, rock phosphate etc - so this will obviously effect the ratio.

VG

 

[MJtheIndicator]

it's just don't expect it to be an immediate source for cal/mag. the molecular bond between cal/mag in dolomite is very strong and (from the papers I've read) can take 6 months to a year to become available nutrients for your plants... one paper said even after 6 years in a truly 'dead' soil.

I'm coming from the view of constructing a soil in relation to the climate one grows in and the strain chosen. When I think of dolomite I know I am going for an alkaline soil and a strain which isn't as crazy for phosphorus. Dolomite is slowly available, but the time release as a buffering agent isn't entirely pointless. If you have a variety which thrives in acidic conditions and appreciates lots of water, dolomite will probably suffocate less and regulate easier than the typical sources of calcium carbonate. "Dolomite requires 16,834,000 gallons to dissolve one ton. That is 620 inches of rain or irrigation." So I agree its slow, but some strains might enjoy this environment, the extreme stats notwithstanding.

sidenote: cal/mg ratio 7:1 (sandy soil) 10:1 (clay soil) Too much dolomitic lime and you wind up with mag imbalance, i.e., compaction even pests. The 4: 1 ratio mentioned is derivative of the Mg : Ca weight ratio in the ocean being about 4: 1. Should go without saying increase in calcium reduces the availability of potash and phosphate, as well as manganese, boron, zinc and iron, yet with dolomite the iron and manganese is held.

Here's a pdf article
AGRONOMY AND SOILS
Soil Calcium: Magnesium Ratios and Lime Recommendation

The difference at hand might be more about growers who are reaching for carbonate as a remedy rather than building block, but if you are dealing with a time consuming sativa, dolomite appears to have good reason.

Regarding the note in your quote - Note: You could replace the Limestone with either Oyster Shell Powder (pure Calcium Carbonate) or Agricultural Lime (aka Calcite Lime) which is also a pure form of Calcium Carbonate. But the above recipe will get you the benefits you're looking for in a liming agent.

Yes I would go with deep-water sourced oyster shell powder (Japanese: Gofun), before lime.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

on the ratio lime /magnesium i think there are may more lime giving ingredients in a soil mix such as EWC, bone meal, rock phosphate etc - so this will obviously effect the ratio.

VG

on point as always

 

[BurnOne]

But let's get back on topic gentlemen.
Burn1

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

I have recently been following Steve Solomon's advice on liming. Which is 50/50 ag lime and gypsum. He recommends more heavy use of this mix for clay soils initially for the first year or three. Then back to the normal recommendation of 1/2 litre of each spread over 10m2. What that is in gallons and square feet/yards i have no idea. But a little goes a long way.

My base soil is usually 1/3 peatmoss, 1/3 top soil and 1/3 biochar activated compost/wormcastings. For drainage i add a wee bit of sand and some lavarocks/scoria. For seedlings or small pots i replace the lavarock with perlite.

Seems to work out ok (excellent i mean)...

 

[Mate Dave]

Why is it that in an organic thread there is a lot of information regarding buy this add that, or "You need this". You need nothing but a compost bin and or a wormery. The only biomass not added back to the substrate is the dry weed! Why do people feel the need to import amendments that are inherently "Not Organic" Just to be in the cool group? I am not able to comprehend this blatant disregard to natural resources.

I feel as gardeners we should respect our profession by being professional about it and adapt to the basics of farming. How to fix nitrogen, phosphates and add potassium to the grow media is all we need to grow the best weed..

 

[ct guy2]

Why is it that in an organic thread there is a lot of information regarding buy this add that, or "You need this". You need nothing but a compost bin and or a wormery. The only biomass not added back to the substrate is the dry weed! Why do people feel the need to import amendments that are inherently "Not Organic" Just to be in the cool group? I am not able to comprehend this blatant disregard to natural resources.

I feel as gardeners we should respect our profession by being professional about it and adapt to the basics of farming. How to fix nitrogen, phosphates and add potassium to the grow media is all we need to grow the best weed..

What if your native soils are poor? That requires outside inputs. Compost is not an all-inclusive solution to everything. If you're building a container soil mix, how do you raise your CEC while provide adequate porosity and aeration in the mix? Compost doesn't solve this.

I'm not a product guy and there's plenty of information on here relating to permaculture and utilizing natural resources and plant extracts. Look up posts by JayKush. Or even a lot of Coot's posts.

If we are trying to optimize growth and yields and overall plant health, then using some select products like rock dusts, alfalfa, kelp, etc....can help in achieving this. And keep in mind that most growers are transitioning over from chem nutes or a bunch of organic bottled nutrient lines. It's a process of moving towards raw ingredients to help them save money and reduce consumption. Just the idea of re-using soil is a stretch for many growers. You have to keep these factors in mind when criticizing people in this forum. I'm not saying all the advice in here or all the "products" recommended in here are necessary or even worth purchasing. But you have to look at the context, audience, and membership of this forum as well.

 

[Luther Burbank]

Oy vey, criticizing the organics forum while towing the line that all you need is compost. Which as CT guy points out doesn't help if the inputs for your compost aren't good, or your native soil is poor. It doesn't take into consideration that a lot of homemade compost isn't that great and the nutrient ratios are off. We definitely need to worry about more than adding Potassium, which is almost always in huge amounts in compost. I'm more concerned about Calcium and Magnesium personally.

"Organic" is a bunch of licensing and frankly the issue should be whether or not the addition/fertilizer has a negative impact upon soil fertility and soil life. If the answer is no there should be no problem using it, regardless of whether or not the USDA organic guidelines approve of it or not. I don't know which cool group it is that you're referring to Mate. Legit statement, not trying to be confrontational.

 

[Mikell]

It may be an overly reduced outlook, but there is validity to what he is saying.

There is a lot of product nonsense floating about, look no further than those AEA worshipers. I can't tell if they're using the organic AN line or what....

Simplicity and local ingredients are key. From speaking (figuratively) with international growers, there is some offense taken when "neem, kelp, *insert expensive ingredient*" are proffered as the only solutions to their problems.

 

[Seaf0ur]

Dr. Duke's Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases
http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/highchem.html

need boron? type it in and you'll get a list of plants ranging from highest to lowest in ppm containing that element.... then find what plants are near you...

 

[Weird]

3rd run no till 10 gallon smarties and 5 gallon homers day 30

active worm populations ... check
active beneficial insect populations ... check
no chems for a number of years ... check

 

[Mate Dave]

Luther Burbank, You are not and never will be on his level, Don't tell me that compost isn't the only key to soil fertility because it is the most important thing besides water. Until you have studied soil science you won't know this from the forums, I have been here a decade and have never read such bs on organics as I can do in this 3 part blow your own horn thread.

Nothing imported is ORGANIC! Guano essentially is in-organic.

Not improving fertility with the organic matter from the last grow is insane.

I'm only worried about N.P.K and the micro's nothing else. All the rest is mumbo jumbo. You can't expect to get microbes in a no till to work as fast as the plant will need its uptake, therefore the substrate must be hummus before planting to allow the growth required.

A handful of rock dust is just that a handful of rock dust. A waste if you ask me.

Looking good Weird...

I can't do a no-till as I have seen what tilling can do to improve the plant size and it is a key principle in my gardening.

Cultivating the soil is what aerates and adds CEC.

'Luther' what inputs into compost are negative?

My organic cannabis has been organic for 7 or more years and will always be, it's supplemented from chemical grows I grow chemically, essentially for the biomass to compost and add back so that what was robbed from the soil is replaced organically once composted..

If you got P&D it will not effect the compost.