New kelp derived paclo

[glow]

I'm very interested in making my own formulation. Still just getting into it. Much to learn. I've always thought the market is a gimic.

As a med grower I think it is imperative that you understand exactly what is being fed to your plants. Nutrient formulation isn't so hard - check out hydro buddy software and begin learning some formulation theory.

There's a couple of good threads on IC Mag I've seen on formulation. Perhaps Storm Shadow can advise you further on this one. Basically the hydro industry isn't dissimilar to other industries and I've perhaps been too hard on them. My prob with the industry is that actives aren't listed and growers are fed shite by just a few companies. Med has changed the game plan - you cannot grow a medical crop and call it med without a good set of ethics. I think in the coming years the industry will change as new players arrive and bring with them professional standards. That will help to clean up the cowboys.

 

[stevewinthrop]

That's really odd GreenintheThumb - my friend used to mix it and it was carboload. Nothing proprietary there unless you call glucose and xanthum proprietary.

To be fair, they have a proprietary method for mixing them. They use a very particular blender, it's all very complex and scientific, you probably wouldn't understand.

 

[GreenintheThumb]

That's really odd GreenintheThumb - my friend used to mix it and it was carboload. Nothing proprietary there unless you call glucose and xanthum proprietary.

Okay...it was my understanding that Rico actually knew his shit and was the guy who first formulated this product. He's a pretty hard guy to get a hold of these days but does occasionally communicate with a friend of mine.

Having dealt quite a bit with nutrient companies I will say that the person mixing doesn't necessarily know what is in the product he or she is making. Was your friend actually doing the purchasing there? Most of these companies try to hide their trade secrets.

Pretty easy to tell the bucket monkey to mix this much "xanthan gum" into the product when it's something else entirely. It's not too often that the people doing the grunt work know what the chelates in the product actually are.

Oh BTW - I've heard that Pepsi spin before. I think AN or Dutchmaster used it and actually you could easily create Pepsi from the list of ingredients just as you can create a nutrient within 98% accuracy of the original from lab analysis. Why people compare nutrients to Pepsi is sort of beyond me though. Pepsi is Pepsi and a nutrient is a nutrient is a nutrient.

I gather you believe that the back of nutrient bottles tell you everything in the product. This is plainly false. Most of the time the reps don't even know what's making these products work. Botanicare has a new product out called Rhizo Blast for help in blowing out roots. The rep came around touting the amazing properties of Chlorella a microalgae in the product as if it was the active ingredient. Big Ag was onto Chlorella in the 70s, it's been well researched. They've been cold pressing it to rupture the cell walls and extract her goodies for decades. Frankly she doesn't do what the rep was told and what the website claims. She's in there for subterfuge, you can do a cheap ass test on the rhizo blast and it will test positive and if you're not in the know you'll think you understand how this product works.

You might even get online and post as if you can make the same thing for cheap but the real active ingredient in this product isn't listed. This is what I've gathered from speaking with industry leaders with decades of experience who hold phds and patents on many of the products growers use every day.

I'm curious what's the name of your molecular biologist friend who you claimed reformulated the Advanced Nutrients line? My friend did some consulting work for them after leaving GH and formulated a product I use today while working for them. It's a flower set product that they didn't want because you use it as a stand alone. Apparently they didn't like the idea of only being able to sell you one product for 3-7 days of your cycle.

btw- if you read the back of the bottle of this product you'll have zero clue what makes it work. You might think it's some nasty PGR but it isn't. Welcome to the nutrient game.

 

[dabking]

As a med grower I think it is imperative that you understand exactly what is being fed to your plants. Nutrient formulation isn't so hard - check out hydro buddy software and begin learning some formulation theory.

There's a couple of good threads on IC Mag I've seen on formulation. Perhaps Storm Shadow can advise you further on this one. Basically the hydro industry isn't dissimilar to other industries and I've perhaps been too hard on them. My prob with the industry is that actives aren't listed and growers are fed shite by just a few companies. Med has changed the game plan - you cannot grow a medical crop and call it med without a good set of ethics. I think in the coming years the industry will change as new players arrive and bring with them professional standards. That will help to clean up the cowboys.

I completely agree. I have looked at hydro buddy before. Also been digging in the DIY thread here. So many formulations

 

[glow]

To be fair, they have a proprietary method for mixing them. They use a very particular blender, it's all very complex and scientific, you probably wouldn't understand.

Yeah you're right mate - that's why they hired us to fix their formulas in Australia. Actually the twat from Cyco came to me and asked me to rejig the formulas further for the US market. Prick still owes me money. Top bloody chemists lol but then I expect you know very little about chemistry which is why you are making absurd claims about Xanthum (xanthan actually) gum. I think what you are talking about is Xanthan Gum is a carbohydrate and polysaccharide containing component --- http://blog.fooducate.com/2010/09/23/10-facts-about-xantham-gum-a-very-popular-food-additive/ The AN rep in Australia used to purchase it from a molec bio I work with from time to time. Ah yeah he's still owed about 30K also. Nothing special there mate - good old straight Xanthan gum. Shame they can't even spell it right - true chem geniuses. Other than this Xanthan Gum has a high molecular weight - great thickening agent but unsuitable as a carbohydrate/polysaccharide for plant uptake. However, Xanthan Gum is used to stabilize emulsions and is used in agriculture in herbicides and fungicides etc. It can also increase the aqueous phase viscosity and lowers the interfacial tension between oil and water. Actually here's a good read on it ---- http://docencia.izt.uam.mx/epa/archivos/quimalim/xantana.pdf if you want to school up on the actual chemistry. Cheers mate - don't want a pissing contest but you have been fed bad information (alien tech) from someone.

 

[glow]

I completely agree. I have looked at hydro buddy before. Also been digging in the DIY thread here. So many formulations

Good one - every great journey begins with a single step.

 

[glow]

Okay...it was my understanding that Rico actually knew his shit and was the guy who first formulated this product. He's a pretty hard guy to get a hold of these days but does occasionally communicate with a friend of mine.

Having dealt quite a bit with nutrient companies I will say that the person mixing doesn't necessarily know what is in the product he or she is making. Was your friend actually doing the purchasing there? Most of these companies try to hide their trade secrets.

Pretty easy to tell the bucket monkey to mix this much "xanthan gum" into the product when it's something else entirely. It's not too often that the people doing the grunt work know what the chelates in the product actually are.



I gather you believe that the back of nutrient bottles tell you everything in the product. This is plainly false. Most of the time the reps don't even know what's making these products work. Botanicare has a new product out called Rhizo Blast for help in blowing out roots. The rep came around touting the amazing properties of Chlorella a microalgae in the product as if it was the active ingredient. Big Ag was onto Chlorella in the 70s, it's been well researched. They've been cold pressing it to rupture the cell walls and extract her goodies for decades. Frankly she doesn't do what the rep was told and what the website claims. She's in there for subterfuge, you can do a cheap ass test on the rhizo blast and it will test positive and if you're not in the know you'll think you understand how this product works.

You might even get online and post as if you can make the same thing for cheap but the real active ingredient in this product isn't listed. This is what I've gathered from speaking with industry leaders with decades of experience who hold phds and patents on many of the products growers use every day.

I'm curious what's the name of your molecular biologist friend who you claimed reformulated the Advanced Nutrients line? My friend did some consulting work for them after leaving GH and formulated a product I use today while working for them. It's a flower set product that they didn't want because you use it as a stand alone. Apparently they didn't like the idea of only being able to sell you one product for 3-7 days of your cycle.

btw- if you read the back of the bottle of this product you'll have zero clue what makes it work. You might think it's some nasty PGR but it isn't. Welcome to the nutrient game.

I don't go by labels pal - anyone who understands anything knows that labels can be miles out. I lab test - full stop. Safe to say a molecular biologist tends to understand the chemistry. Darrin Collins who was the AN rep knew nothing about chemistry so when he ran into trouble he came to us. Re the molec bio name - I really don't think he'd be too happy having his name plastered on a weed growing forum. GH has no market share in Australia (tiny/minute to nothing) other than a couple of additives, so presumably you're not from Australia. Haha funny - you're teling me about the nutrient game. My friend I've been around the industry for about 20 years - have a Masters in Plant Physiology (actually not quite true as I am writing my thesis now but have completed 8 course work units with straight A's) and then I expect I may even do a PhD. Nutrient chemistry is about the most basic chemistry you get - cooking meth would be harder. You make it sound like rocket science - it's not. Read research - see what others are doing and use this research for your own tests. But then if you do know nutrient formulation I expect you understand this.

PS their Australian formulas were chemistry disasters - clearly whoever formulated them knew nothing about chemistry. They had to put heaters in the bloody warehouse because the nutrient were precipitating on cold nights. I laughed my arse off when I saw a couple of their formulas - I think they have improved since (hell they may have hired a decent chemist) so probably that should go on the record also.

PS - re rhizo blast any fool knows to use IBA. Couple of other little tricks also (actually I've been using Tria and amino acids and IBA) and yes manufacturers have for years been using auxin kelps to hide the synthetic auxins. Lab tests can pick up anything - you just need to know what to test for.

That's how the CDFA busted the chem PGR products - for years they were on the market right under their noses. I told them what to test for when they asked me what I thought. We missed some also because tests weren't run that perhaps should have been. Better luck next time and I know the CDFA are watching the situation very closely. I expect they'll begin testing for other PGRs also. BTW - that's bringing this thread back onto topic.

 

[BubbaBear]

Agree completely BubbaBear - that's smart growing practice. As for Ethephon. Not up to speed on it. What I do know about it would lead me not to use it. Its still a herbicide and still systemic. It's also an organophosphate.... see http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/dienochlor-glyphosate/ethephon-ext.html and http://eurekamag.com/research/031/580/031580058.php

Mate - I've never had the need to use chem PGRs - it really comes down to smart growing practices. Leggy genetics should be grown in greenhouses if they are unsuitable for under lights. No med should be produced using products that potentially harm the end consumer - its that simple.

I love me some OG kush and its one of the lankiest stretchers in the game and l have 8 foot ceilings and no greenhouse so im always trying to keep my plants as short as possible, I pinch n pruin n trellis and do all the standard stuff. Chem PGRs make it a lot easier to deal with but l know its possible without them, thats why im so interested in this thread.

Glow- whats your opinion on using hormones it seems like a lot of compays may not be using PGRs these days but have there nutes chocked full of hormones, am I wrong?

Arent the rooting hormones in rooting agents for use in non food crops and ornamental plants?

Once a pon a time l heard from a Aptus rep that the IBA I in rooting agents is responsible to genetic drift in plants that make them loose flavor and potency over time. Have you or anyone reading this know if there is trooth to this?

 

[BubbaBear]

As a med grower I think it is imperative that you understand exactly what is being fed to your plants. Nutrient formulation isn't so hard - check out hydro buddy software and begin learning some formulation theory.

There's a couple of good threads on IC Mag I've seen on formulation. Perhaps Storm Shadow can advise you further on this one. Basically the hydro industry isn't dissimilar to other industries and I've perhaps been too hard on them. My prob with the industry is that actives aren't listed and growers are fed shite by just a few companies. Med has changed the game plan - you cannot grow a medical crop and call it med without a good set of ethics. I think in the coming years the industry will change as new players arrive and bring with them professional standards. That will help to clean up the cowboys.

l like knowing whats going in my plants but have no interest in making my own base theres so many good ones on the market and base nutrient is one of the cheaper products to grow plants these days, Im more interested in whats really in some of these super additives cocktails, what makes them tick?Not all of them are PGRs, I wish companies would have to legally list ALL the ingredients on the bottle, how come they dont have too?

 

[glow]

I love me some OG kush and its one of the lankiest stretchers in the game and l have 8 foot ceilings and no greenhouse so im always trying to keep my plants as short as possible, I pinch n pruin n trellis and do all the standard stuff. Chem PGRs make it a lot easier to deal with but l know its possible without them, thats why im so interested in this thread.

Glow- whats your opinion on using hormones it seems like a lot of compays may not be using PGRs these days but have there nutes chocked full of hormones, am I wrong?

Arent the rooting hormones in rooting agents for use in non food crops and ornamental plants?

Once a pon a time l heard from a Aptus rep that the IBA I in rooting agents is responsible to genetic drift in plants that make them loose flavor and potency over time. Have you or anyone reading this know if there is trooth to this?

He may have somewhat of a point there - some strains tend to not like hormones at all (e.g. NL5 x Haze). Rooting hormones are fine because they are used weeks and weeks before harvest but I do say don;t use them during flower as some manufacturers recommend.


"Glow- whats your opinion on using hormones it seems like a lot of compays may not be using PGRs these days but have there nutes chocked full of hormones, am I wrong?"

Yes and no really. Some hormones are shown to be extremely safe while others have potential toxicity issues. I doubt they are putting them in the nutrients but certainly in certain additives. While we're on the subject and I have been bagging out AN for circulating so much misinformation... they are one company that tends to not use hormones (to their credit). This said, I'm very concerned that they may be using MES in pH Perfect but hope I'm wrong on this front.

 

[glow]

l like knowing whats going in my plants but have no interest in making my own base theres so many good ones on the market and base nutrient is one of the cheaper products to grow plants these days, Im more interested in whats really in some of these super additives cocktails, what makes them tick?Not all of them are PGRs, I wish companies would have to legally list ALL the ingredients on the bottle, how come they dont have too?

Weed growers don't have much consumer protection. Let's face it in most countries you can't phone the authorities and say company X killed my plants - what can I do about it?

 

[glow]

Okay...it was my understanding that Rico actually knew his shit and was the guy who first formulated this product. He's a pretty hard guy to get a hold of these days but does occasionally communicate with a friend of mine.

Having dealt quite a bit with nutrient companies I will say that the person mixing doesn't necessarily know what is in the product he or she is making. Was your friend actually doing the purchasing there? Most of these companies try to hide their trade secrets.

Pretty easy to tell the bucket monkey to mix this much "xanthan gum" into the product when it's something else entirely. It's not too often that the people doing the grunt work know what the chelates in the product actually are.



I gather you believe that the back of nutrient bottles tell you everything in the product. This is plainly false. Most of the time the reps don't even know what's making these products work. Botanicare has a new product out called Rhizo Blast for help in blowing out roots. The rep came around touting the amazing properties of Chlorella a microalgae in the product as if it was the active ingredient. Big Ag was onto Chlorella in the 70s, it's been well researched. They've been cold pressing it to rupture the cell walls and extract her goodies for decades. Frankly she doesn't do what the rep was told and what the website claims. She's in there for subterfuge, you can do a cheap ass test on the rhizo blast and it will test positive and if you're not in the know you'll think you understand how this product works.

You might even get online and post as if you can make the same thing for cheap but the real active ingredient in this product isn't listed. This is what I've gathered from speaking with industry leaders with decades of experience who hold phds and patents on many of the products growers use every day.

I'm curious what's the name of your molecular biologist friend who you claimed reformulated the Advanced Nutrients line? My friend did some consulting work for them after leaving GH and formulated a product I use today while working for them. It's a flower set product that they didn't want because you use it as a stand alone. Apparently they didn't like the idea of only being able to sell you one product for 3-7 days of your cycle.

btw- if you read the back of the bottle of this product you'll have zero clue what makes it work. You might think it's some nasty PGR but it isn't. Welcome to the nutrient game.

Actually here's the mixing instructions direct from AN

Mixing Instructions:
1) Start with most of the HOT water in the mixing tank, and add ingredient # 1; mix well.

2) Pre-mix the Xanthum gum in Isopropyl alcohol to make a slurry, then add this slowly to the mixing tank
while it is recirculating.

3) Add Glucose by increments till it dissolves fully.

4) Mix for 120 minutes (2 hours) to ensure all ingredients are mixed thoroughly.

5) Top up with cold water to the desired volume and the product is ready to pack. Use no filters to transfer
and to pour.

Where's the amazing mixing (alien tech) you speak of?

BTW - disagree completely about Rico (anyone who claims to be a guru grower and then pimps themselves to a nutrient company deserves no respect at all) - either way where did he get his chemistry degree from (looking at this shit show I expect a Russian online uni)? Look mate - a lot of people talk a lot of shit (particularly people like Rico) - the sooner you get that the better off you will be. Besides this, with a basic understanding of chemistry you'd understand that things occur at a molecular level - certain things can be done while others can't. Its all relatively simple chemistry - no rocket science involved.

 

[milkyjoe]

One merely has to mix their own plain ingredients in proper ratios and then compare results to know that secret ingredient myth is close to 100% bullshit. If that doesn't convince you send it to a lab.

It ain't rocket science is right

 

[stevewinthrop]

My comment about advanced mixing techniques was just me being a smartass. I know full and well the "secrets" behind sugar products. They are, in fact, sugar!

I have added dextrose to my watering routine in the past but skip it all together now because it is mostly a waste of money and time. A little unsulphured molasses mid flower is about all the "sugar" my babies get anymore, and it's not to sweeten them up!

Keep on rocking, and don't pay any attention to the smartass over here.

 

[glow]

My comment about advanced mixing techniques was just me being a smartass. I know full and well the "secrets" behind sugar products. They are, in fact, sugar!

I have added dextrose to my watering routine in the past but skip it all together now because it is mostly a waste of money and time. A little unsulphured molasses mid flower is about all the "sugar" my babies get anymore, and it's not to sweeten them up!

Keep on rocking, and don't pay any attention to the smartass over here.

Actually, people need to pay more attention to smart arses and less attention to those who proliferate false information and thereby promote (inadvertently or not) hideously overpriced sugar and other garbage growers don't need..... double entendre

 

[Mikell]

Buy the ticket, take the ride...



Loving your posts glow, and glad to have your contributions here to clear up the muddlefuck that so many perpetuate. Some of whom ride quotes from authors they'll never understand.... strange men in red woolen shirts getting incredible kicks from things they’ll never know.

 

[glow]

Buy the ticket, take the ride...



Loving your posts glow, and glad to have your contributions here to clear up the muddlefuck that so many perpetuate. Some of whom ride quotes from authors they'll never understand.... strange men in red woolen shirts getting incredible kicks from things they’ll never know.

Thanks Mikell - nice to meet. And yes, sort of a worry - those strange little men in red woolen shirts. Sorry it took so long to get back been busy on another thread dealing with them.

 

[BubbaBear]

Glow- any word on the Mendocino Avalanche test results?

 

[glow]

Glow- any word on the Mendocino Avalanche test results?

Not yet - a few more days I expect.

 

[BubbaBear]

Not yet - a few more days I expect.

Cool, thanks for doing that man. So to get something tested you need to know exactly what your testing for right? About how much does that cost?
Theres definitely a few other additives i'd like to have tested.