New kelp derived paclo

[SativaBreather]

I met mike the creator of canadian express last week, he also make the pac based ROX. like glow, he was incredulous about rocksoff a competitor using the pgr mimickin technology.
His wilt guard and regenaroot are good but he can keep his rox shit.
his buddy was aprick trying to tell me there was no science to say pac is carcinogenic

 

[BubbaBear]

I met mike the creator of canadian express last week, he also make the pac based ROX. like glow, he was incredulous about rocksoff a competitor using the pgr mimickin technology.
His wilt guard and regenaroot are good but he can keep his rox shit.
his buddy was aprick trying to tell me there was no science to say pac is carcinogenic

Rocksoff sounds like good stuff, since its supposed to enhance quality tells me there's no paclo in there, paclo kills resin production.
Does it help with stretch?

 

[glow]

Rocksoff sounds like good stuff, since its supposed to enhance quality tells me there's no paclo in there, paclo kills resin production.
Does it help with stretch?

BubbaBear all I can say is that any product that drastically reduces upward growth contains a GA inhibitor and to my knowledge all GA inhibitors are best avoided (most being chem PGRs). 6-BAP will reduce apical dominance somewhat but not nearly to the extent that PBZ etc does. Again, are you running low P in stretch and are you using blended spectrum lighting? If not, there's your answer - otherwise perhaps grow the leggy strains in a greenhouse (light dep) and grow a strain under lights that is more suited to under lights growing.

And yeah - I still think you need to get that you can't trust marketing BS. Flower Dragon claimed their poison increased resin production also. Very simple shit - GA inhibitors reduce quality - that simple!

 

[glow]

I met mike the creator of canadian express last week, he also make the pac based ROX. like glow, he was incredulous about rocksoff a competitor using the pgr mimickin technology.
His wilt guard and regenaroot are good but he can keep his rox shit.
his buddy was aprick trying to tell me there was no science to say pac is carcinogenic

Technically there is no absolute proof PBZ is carcinogenic - they simply don't have the data. I.e.

“Substance Name — Paclobutrazol

This substance/agent has not undergone a complete evaluation and determination under US EPA's IRIS program for evidence of human carcinogenic potential. “

http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0182.htm


[End Quote]

However, paclobutrazol has been shown to be toxic to the liver with:

“Based on the currently available toxicity information, DPR concluded that paclobutrazol causes adverse effects on liver function and developmental effects in rodents. DPR has further concluded that, in the absence of additional data to the contrary, paclobutrazol has the potential to cause similar effects in humans.” 1


[End Quote]


Yeah Biggsy (CX) has a nerve wanking on about PGRs - he's the grand daddy of all this shite and stole the concept himself from the grape industry. He's a failed agronomist that discovered the use of PBZ and CC while working around grapes. My position on chem PGRs is simple (black and white). No one should be profiting from harming med consumers (they're scum that need to be flushed out of the industry by the consumer - i.e. support ethical companies). PS what was his side kicks name? Mark Harding by any chance?

 

[glow]

I like how Australian companies have names like Dutch Masters and Canadian express lol.For some crazy reason l thought Canadian express was from Canada lol.

Yup their false marketing begins with their name lol

 

[BubbaBear]

BubbaBear all I can say is that any product that drastically reduces upward growth contains a GA inhibitor and to my knowledge all GA inhibitors are best avoided (most being chem PGRs). 6-BAP will reduce apical dominance somewhat but not nearly to the extent that PBZ etc does. Again, are you running low P in stretch and are you using blended spectrum lighting? If not, there's your answer - otherwise perhaps grow the leggy strains in a greenhouse (light dep) and grow a strain under lights that is more suited to under lights growing.

And yeah - I still think you need to get that you can't trust marketing BS. Flower Dragon claimed their poison increased resin production also. Very simple shit - GA inhibitors reduce quality - that simple!

I dont know much about rocksoff l just saw the evoponic webpage, it doesnt claim to restrict hight it claims to be a enhancer, it sounds similar to Mendocino Avalanche.

I do what l can to control strech and general hight of my plants, I'm just talking about specific strains that are prone stretch that give me trouble,with most strains just a couple toppings and some pinching do the trick, I usually run a mixed spectrum but I haven't tried the low P, I run heavy 16 fire even in veg which is known to help with stretch and recently started using a new foliar product by Uber nutrients called RNA that is supposed to help build compact stout plants.

 

[glow]

I dont know much about rocksoff l just saw the evoponic webpage, it doesnt claim to restrict hight it claims to be a enhancer, it sounds similar to Mendocino Avalanche.

I do what l can to control strech and general hight of my plants, I'm just talking about specific strains that are prone stretch that give me trouble,with most strains just a couple toppings and some pinching do the trick, I usually run a mixed spectrum but I haven't tried the low P, I run heavy 16 fire even in veg which is known to help with stretch and recently started using a new foliar product by Uber nutrients called RNA that is supposed to help build compact stout plants.

Speaking of Dark Master and Flower Dribble - Uber is Steve Berlow's new nutrient company (ex Dark Master and Flower Dribble). I think that RNA tested negative for PGRs though so all good presumably. Just read the sales jargon for it and it says absolutely nothing about actives.

 

[BubbaBear]

Speaking of Dark Master and Flower Dribble - Uber is Steve Berlow's new nutrient company (ex Dark Master and Flower Dribble). I think that RNA tested negative for PGRs though so all good presumably. Just read the sales jargon for it and it says absolutely nothing about actives.

Yeah I heard that, I just started using the Uber line, so far so good. They have some pretty interesting additives and im digging the Uni One, its a one part base that you use for veg and flower.

 

[glow]

Yeah I heard that, I just started using the Uber line, so far so good. They have some pretty interesting additives and im digging the Uni One, its a one part base that you use for veg and flower.

I wish him the best and hope he can run an honest race in future. A one part for growth and bloom though makes no sense as flowering plants have very different NPK etc requirements during different stages of growth. What's the guaranteed analysis tell you?

 

[papaduc]

A one part for growth and bloom though makes no sense as flowering plants have very different NPK etc requirements during different stages of growth.

That's true to a degree, but with a PK adjuster any balanced nutrient can be used throughout grow and bloom. Tweaking a balanced one part makes as much sense to me as using something like GH 3 part and adjusting that. The only difference in fact is that you're probably maintaining a better overall profile when you adjust the one part.

With regards to the whole PGR thing, I agree that too many growers are using too many things before they're absolutely sure they've got the basics spot on. When people are doing 0.4 & 0.5 gpw and using chemical growth regulators and co2, it tells me that their focus is on a quick fix when it needs to be on the more basic aspects of gardening.

The hydro industry is largely to blame for this. You talked earlier about the culture in the UK & Aus, and on the other website you cite a study by Advanced nutrients into high phosphate feeding. But Advanced nutrients are one of the main culprits, arguably the pioneers, in the sale of bullshit to novice growers, and one of the main reasons a lot of beginners focus on everything except what they should.

While people's focus is on the bottle to resolve their problems or increase their yields, and while companies like this market their products as the means to achieve it, products like these will always make up a massive part of the market.

A good balanced fertiliser combined with solid techniques, good environment and lighting, in relation to the structure and yield of a plant, is massively undervalued by this sector of growers. When you look at the profile of some of these nutes, you realise how spoiled we are, but also how few of us realise it.

People obsess over micro elements, calcium to magnesium ratios and PGRs... then end up with plants that look like shit. But why, when gardeners the world over get better results with cheap nutrients you would say by comparison are not even complete?

That should tell people to take a leaf out of their book with regards to the actual growing of the plant.

Lack of horticultural knowledge is what sells every one of these products. Because once you're harvesting big yields of this crop or that, is it really worth adding the extra chemicals to maybe increase your yields by a few grams or so? It's not. So the value is less to that grower.

The increases these things promise is, on an optimal grow, very small overall, and that should be where your focus is - on training and maximising the potential of your plant based on the relationship between cloning techniques, optimum lighting, veg time, plant spacing, and proper feeding of nutrients of the right profile. Every single bottle of bloom booster or blossom builder or whatever can be tossed aside while you focus on that, and every grow your plants will looks better and better. Your yields will naturally get bigger, to the point where you probably wouldn't even consider using any PGR or unknown chemical additive.

 

[stoned-trout]

I don't want to be a human guinea pig..experimenting with shit on your end users is wrong...nuff said glad I don't smoke a lot of what yall grow..

 

[SativaBreather]

Technically there is no absolute proof PBZ is carcinogenic - they simply don't have the data. I.e.

“Substance Name — Paclobutrazol

This substance/agent has not undergone a complete evaluation and determination under US EPA's IRIS program for evidence of human carcinogenic potential. “

http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0182.htm


[End Quote]

However, paclobutrazol has been shown to be toxic to the liver with:

“Based on the currently available toxicity information, DPR concluded that paclobutrazol causes adverse effects on liver function and developmental effects in rodents. DPR has further concluded that, in the absence of additional data to the contrary, paclobutrazol has the potential to cause similar effects in humans.” 1


[End Quote]
. PS what was his side kicks name? Mark Harding by any chance?

nah the fella with him was a rep for the co that distributes it

 

[EclipseFour20]

I bet many of those "booster/enhancer/adjuster" products also have "cartoon characters" on the label....I have a simple rule, never buy anything with a cartoon character on the label--unless I want to give away my money. LOL!

 

[SativaBreather]

Rocksoff sounds like good stuff, since its supposed to enhance quality tells me there's no paclo in there, paclo kills resin production.
Does it help with stretch?

im not sure to be honest as I use Optic Foliar SWITCH to kickstart flowering, it also keeps height down, ethylene is reponsible for that I am told

 

[BubbaBear]

:

im not sure to be honest as I use Optic Foliar SWITCH to kickstart flowering, it also keeps height down, ethylene is reponsible for that I am told

Interesting, Ive heard it can be used for stretch, I just used it the first time to prevent hermies from a light leak. This shit stinks when its being sprayed, it gave me a headache, l guess its from the ethylene off gassing, definitely gonna use a respirator next time. Did you use it right at flip or wait till day 7 like the instructions say? Does it have a drastic hault on vertical growth like paclo or does it just slow things down with some minor strech? How many applications do you use? Standard application rate?

 

[BubbaBear]

I bet many of those "booster/enhancer/adjuster" products also have "cartoon characters" on the label....I have a simple rule, never buy anything with a cartoon character on the label--unless I want to give away my money. LOL!

I hear you, l especially hate all the Advanced nutrient cartoon lables, its like there trying to sell cigarettes to teenagers. They actually do make a few good products though, their PH down is legit its the most concentrated in the industry , Budfactor X is the best essential oil and terp boost on the market ive found that also turns on your plants SAR, nirvana is a good organic booster with tricantanol, big bud and kuskie kush are quality proven bud boosters. There company is a embarrassment to the industry, but they do actually do a lot of good research and put out a few good products.

 

[glow]

That's true to a degree, but with a PK adjuster any balanced nutrient can be used throughout grow and bloom. Tweaking a balanced one part makes as much sense to me as using something like GH 3 part and adjusting that. The only difference in fact is that you're probably maintaining a better overall profile when you adjust the one part.

With regards to the whole PGR thing, I agree that too many growers are using too many things before they're absolutely sure they've got the basics spot on. When people are doing 0.4 & 0.5 gpw and using chemical growth regulators and co2, it tells me that their focus is on a quick fix when it needs to be on the more basic aspects of gardening.

The hydro industry is largely to blame for this. You talked earlier about the culture in the UK & Aus, and on the other website you cite a study by Advanced nutrients into high phosphate feeding. But Advanced nutrients are one of the main culprits, arguably the pioneers, in the sale of bullshit to novice growers, and one of the main reasons a lot of beginners focus on everything except what they should.

While people's focus is on the bottle to resolve their problems or increase their yields, and while companies like this market their products as the means to achieve it, products like these will always make up a massive part of the market.

A good balanced fertiliser combined with solid techniques, good environment and lighting, in relation to the structure and yield of a plant, is massively undervalued by this sector of growers. When you look at the profile of some of these nutes, you realise how spoiled we are, but also how few of us realise it.

People obsess over micro elements, calcium to magnesium ratios and PGRs... then end up with plants that look like shit. But why, when gardeners the world over get better results with cheap nutrients you would say by comparison are not even complete?

That should tell people to take a leaf out of their book with regards to the actual growing of the plant.

Lack of horticultural knowledge is what sells every one of these products. Because once you're harvesting big yields of this crop or that, is it really worth adding the extra chemicals to maybe increase your yields by a few grams or so? It's not. So the value is less to that grower.

The increases these things promise is, on an optimal grow, very small overall, and that should be where your focus is - on training and maximising the potential of your plant based on the relationship between cloning techniques, optimum lighting, veg time, plant spacing, and proper feeding of nutrients of the right profile. Every single bottle of bloom booster or blossom builder or whatever can be tossed aside while you focus on that, and every grow your plants will looks better and better. Your yields will naturally get bigger, to the point where you probably wouldn't even consider using any PGR or unknown chemical additive.

Good post brother. Absolutely agree 150%. Too many growers focus on additives when they need to focus on environment. Don't necessarily agree on the one part and PK additives because cannabis requires about 5 different nutrient ratios at different stages of growth (inline to other flowering/fruiting dicots) and by simply increasing P and K you are also messing with other very important ratios. But let's not get too technical because in part you are also right and when you factor in nutritional tolerance and other factors (e.g. luxury nutrient range) you can perhaps get close by using a single part and tweaking it with P and K. Bottom line is all genetics tend to need somewhat different ratios but to generalize you can pretty much say that a 4- 1- 5 NPK (elemental) ratio is about optimum for indica and mostly indica strains (at about week 3 of flower - i.e. after the stretch phase). Sativas differ somewhat and tend to like a fractionally higher N to K ratio. The other thing is that ammonium nitrogen and magnesium are in higher demand during flower than grow and most PK additives (besides providing too much P) don't incorporate these elements. I tend to recommend that growers use a PK 3-14 product or there abouts (high K to P ratio) and also add other elements that are critical to optimal flower production.

You'll find I have written things about Advanced Nutrients ---- see

http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydro-hype/39-advanced-nutrients-the-med-deception.html

and

http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydro-hype/77-advanced-nutrients-the-high-p-myth-myth.html

 

[glow]

I hear you, l especially hate all the Advanced nutrient cartoon lables, its like there trying to sell cigarettes to teenagers. They actually do make a few good products though, their PH down is legit its the most concentrated in the industry , Budfactor X is the best essential oil and terp boost on the market ive found that also turns on your plants SAR, nirvana is a good organic booster with tricantanol, big bud and kuskie kush are quality proven bud boosters. There company is a embarrassment to the industry, but they do actually do a lot of good research and put out a few good products.

They also put out a lot of shite I had to laugh re another thread that is going on about Carboload on this site. It's 250 grams a litre of glucose and some (low levels of) fulvic acid (FA) which given their use of lignite derived FA is pointless because there is jack nothing of FA and lots of humic acid (HA). Actually here's the formula they used (and probably still do - see following). I have most of their original formulas as a result of a bad debt being paid off (20K for a bunch of very average formulas that were less than impressive). A good friend of mine and colleague in Australia (a molecular biologist) reformulated their nutrients because they were precipitating. Couldn't believe it - their 200 PhD chemists had used mono magnesium sulfate in solution which is about as dumb as you get from a chemistry perspective because it has low solubility. They also do some other stupid things ------ bottom line is, if they have PhD's working for them... PhD refers to 'prefers hard drugs.' Anyway, carboload formula - go the most expensive sugar on the planet!

FORMULA C-1 CARBOLOAD (LIQUID)
BATCH: 400 L / 1000 L
INGREDIENTS QUANTITY (400 L) QUANTITY (1000 L)
1 Sodium Benzoate 2.4 kg 6 kg
2a Xanthum gum 1.8 kg 4.5 kg
2b Isopropyl Alcohol 3 L 7.5 L
3 Glucose 100 kg 250 kg
4 Fulvic acid 8 L 20 L

 

[glow]

Technically there is no absolute proof PBZ is carcinogenic - they simply don't have the data. I.e.

“Substance Name — Paclobutrazol

This substance/agent has not undergone a complete evaluation and determination under US EPA's IRIS program for evidence of human carcinogenic potential. “

http://www.epa.gov/iris/subst/0182.htm


[End Quote]

However, paclobutrazol has been shown to be toxic to the liver with:



nah the fella with him was a rep for the co that distributes it

Cheers mate. Sorry we butted heads - forums are kinda weird like that

 

[glow]

I don't want to be a human guinea pig..experimenting with shit on your end users is wrong...nuff said glad I don't smoke a lot of what yall grow..

Couldn't agree more. That's why I grow my own using tech or pharmaceutical grade ferts. Scary that people use shit without even knowing the actives.