Some concerns ...

Breakover · Sep 7, 2014

Anyone try cooling the discharge with a flat plate heat exchanger?

I picked one up from duda diesel. It's stainless with copper solders. Was thinking of making a refrigerant cooling system for it using r134.

Permacultuure · Sep 8, 2014

For sure, I realize that the 25' coil is technically an "immersion chiller" , but i want to immerse it into a 190-200 proof alky or glycol bath that is chilled off power not DI.

Flat - thats close, but far away still...Powers cheap, DI is expensive...can we plug this thing in....I'm a simple minded individual, no doubt......Much Love and thanks fo the help!!

Chonkski · Sep 8, 2014

I love where this is going! Couldn't agree more

HG23 · Sep 9, 2014

Perma,

Have you looked into a company called Neslab? They make immersion chillers and have a few that are designed to replace dry ice in what seems to be our exact type application. They suggest using them to replace DI as a source for chilling a liquid right in the marketing brochure. I think it's the CC (Cryo Cool) model series I was looking at.

flatslabs · Sep 9, 2014

Northern Lab said:
Anyone try cooling the discharge with a flat plate heat exchanger?

I picked one up from duda diesel. It's stainless with copper solders. Was thinking of making a refrigerant cooling system for it using r134.

I have never seen a plate chiller where the internals were not copper plates that were cnc'd out to have channels and completely SS, could you provide a link please?

flatslabs · Sep 9, 2014

Permacultuure said:
For sure, I realize that the 25' coil is technically an "immersion chiller" , but i want to immerse it into a 190-200 proof alky or glycol bath that is chilled off power not DI.

Flat - thats close, but far away still...Powers cheap, DI is expensive...can we plug this thing in....I'm a simple minded individual, no doubt......Much Love and thanks fo the help!!

Perma: the idea is you would pump cold glycol in one side and hot refrigerant in the other. The glycol pump and heat exchange stuff is still something external that would need to be figured out. This is an alternative to your big cooler full of glycol.

Breakover · Sep 9, 2014

flatslabs said:
I have never seen a plate chiller where the internals were not copper plates that were cnc'd out to have channels and completely SS, could you provide a link please?

Stainless plates with copper brazing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/B3-12A-10-P...Domain_0&var=620131572185&hash=item51adac031b

djelliott916 · Sep 10, 2014

Northern Lab said:
Stainless plates with copper brazing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/B3-12A-10-P...Domain_0&var=620131572185&hash=item51adac031b

Sorry I didn't read the rest and a little too medicated at the moment. As a brewer myself, if you're going to use a plate chiller, go with Blichmann.

http://www.blichmannengineering.com/products/therminator

Permacultuure · Sep 11, 2014

HG23 said:
Perma,

Have you looked into a company called Neslab? They make immersion chillers and have a few that are designed to replace dry ice in what seems to be our exact type application. They suggest using them to replace DI as a source for chilling a liquid right in the marketing brochure. I think it's the CC (Cryo Cool) model series I was looking at.

I like what I see, thank you....I let you know what they say.....

Fazer1HashTrees · Sep 19, 2014

Gray Wolf said:
The MT69 tubes are too small to use with butane at ultra low temperatures, because of how thick it gets and because any water freezes and forms slush. We now make our own, and our design is evolving.

Our first one was an insulated stainless pot with couplings welded in the bottom and side, so that a 20' coil of 3/8" stainless tubing self drains out the bottom port. Picture below of outside plumbing. With ice water and dry ice, it dropped the tank pressure 100 psi.

I have two ~ 8 1/2" coils of 3/8" stainless tubing 50' long en-route, for the next round and will wind smaller coils in the same exchanger, for cooling other streams, as well as for a liquid N2 stream to cool the exchanger itself.

I don't think I would be able to build my own heat exchanger. Do you think I can run the CPS TR21 recovery pump without one and get away with it? Im not very good at building so I don't know if that's an option for me. Thanks for all your help GW

Gray Wolf · Sep 20, 2014

Fazer1HashTrees said:
I don't think I would be able to build my own heat exchanger. Do you think I can run the CPS TR21 recovery pump without one and get away with it? Im not very good at building so I don't know if that's an option for me. Thanks for all your help GW

A TR-21 runs too hot without some sort of heat exchanger. You can buy 3/8" stainless coils already wound at brewery supply houses, so all you would really have to add for a simple system, would be the fittings and valves. Any mechanic or plumber could do that for you.

Fazer1HashTrees · Sep 20, 2014

Gray Wolf said:
A TR-21 runs too hot without some sort of heat exchanger. You can buy 3/8" stainless coils already wound at brewery supply houses, so all you would really have to add for a simple system, would be the fittings and valves. Any mechanic or plumber could do that for you.

This is what subzero extractors said I asked them on facebook the same thing when I asked you on here: "No, the pump runs fine. the heat exchanger is called the MT69 and its to cool and condense the solvent after it comes out of the pump. I guess it could be considered a heat exchanger but its not necessary for running that specific pump." I am very confused on this because they said its fine without one? I might just get a Promax RG6000 that seems to be the easier route.

Permacultuure · Sep 21, 2014

Fazer1HashTrees said:
This is what subzero extractors said I asked them on facebook the same thing when I asked you on here: "No, the pump runs fine. the heat exchanger is called the MT69 and its to cool and condense the solvent after it comes out of the pump. I guess it could be considered a heat exchanger but its not necessary for running that specific pump." I am very confused on this because they said its fine without one? I might just get a Promax RG6000 that seems to be the easier route.

F'n SZ......don't listen to them....they would still be using butterfly valves on their systems if it wasn't for GW stating why butterfly valves do not work for our application.

Appions, Promax are very different then the CPS-tr21, so yes it is required, if you want to use the pump properly.
CPS refers to it as a molecular transformer...I prefer that term

but if SZ can't even acknowledge that its a heat exchanger than WTF???? Was this publicly posted?

You can not use it, but then the burden is put on your tank, which will melt ice fast!

Just get an 25' immersion chiller, its a coil of 3/8" stainless.....two compression fittings and two ball valves....You only need a wrench, maybe two, and theres you heat exchanger.....Or as you said just get an appion or promax......

flatslabs · Sep 21, 2014

Doesn't SZ use a passive extraction with active recovery afterwards? All of the videos I have seen of their systems use a top shower and only hook up the pump to recover at the end.

If that is the case, I could see why they are saying a heat exchanger isn't necessary for their application.

Permacultuure · Sep 21, 2014

flatslabs said:
Doesn't SZ use a passive extraction with active recovery afterwards? All of the videos I have seen of their systems use a top shower and only hook up the pump to recover at the end.

If that is the case, I could see why they are saying a heat exchanger isn't necessary for their application.

Huh? How is that? If your using the pump, your using the pump.......was this a joke?

Gray Wolf · Sep 21, 2014

flatslabs said:
Doesn't SZ use a passive extraction with active recovery afterwards? All of the videos I have seen of their systems use a top shower and only hook up the pump to recover at the end.

If that is the case, I could see why they are saying a heat exchanger isn't necessary for their application.

Consider the thermodynamics for a moment:

A discharge stream 100 to 150F above boiling point from both heat of compression, and the hot pump head.

Heat of vaporization (enthalpy) of 22.44kJ/mol....................

You can get by without it, but you will take significantly longer and put more wear on your pump and vacuum time on your product.

flatslabs · Sep 21, 2014

Permacultuure said:
Huh? How is that? If your using the pump, your using the pump.......was this a joke?

Was it a joke? No.

As I said, from the videos I have seen of their extractions, they use the pump to recover the butane into their recovery tank after the extraction is done passively. All of the cooling effort is put onto their tank and ice bath after the extraction itself is already done, the pump isn't part of cycling the butane for the extraction cycle.

I was just stating that I can see *for their application* why they would say the MT69 is not necessary, they aren't taking the freshly re-condensed solvent and cycling it back through the system. And don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying it was a good idea or was ideal for the pump.

Permacultuure · Sep 21, 2014

flatslabs said:
Was it a joke? No.

As I said, from the videos I have seen of their extractions, they use the pump to recover the butane into their recovery tank after the extraction is done passively. All of the cooling effort is put onto their tank and ice bath after the extraction itself is already done, the pump isn't part of cycling the butane for the extraction cycle.

I was just stating that I can see *for their application* why they would say the MT69 is not necessary, they aren't taking the freshly re-condensed solvent and cycling it back through the system. And don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying it was a good idea or was ideal for the pump.

My apologies.......I don't cut my pump on until i've reached positive pressure......And i don't use the same 6 lbs over and over again on the same column......I guess thats how most bhogarts users run. I do a continuos flood, then recover, my recovery begins before the extraction is over, other than that I don't see a big difference

SZ's are using the pump to recover solvent back into a tank, so their application just doesn't seem to differ from mine.

That said I don't see why their recommendations should be different than the CPS recommendations.....Its only $150, don't their machines cost 9-15k??

flatslabs · Sep 21, 2014

Permacultuure said:
That said I don't see why their recommendations should be different than the CPS recommendations.....Its only $150, don't their machines cost 9-15k??

I am sure they will start recommending it as soon as they realize that, butterfly valve scenario all over again.

Fazer1HashTrees · Sep 22, 2014

I couldn't get by with a cps tr21 with a bhogart 1lb extractor without a heat exchanger? Or should I just go with the promax rg6000?

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