"Live Resin"

[Gray Wolf]

its without fail hashheads come in oil threads, and advocate that we do what they do, but i have very rarely seen posts if ever, of oil lovers coming into hash threads and telling them to make oil. quite the double standard.

Interesting ongoing phenomena brother HK! A puzzlement, no?

I started my concentrates journey with hash dry sieve and bubble extraction, and find well made hash delightful, but not the same subject.

The hash form lacks the utility to accomplish much of what we have pressed the solvent concentrates into service doing.

Hard to read the minds and hearts of noobies posting such a comment, cause some of them are still ignorant of the differences, while others have secondary agendas, or are are loyal followers and shills for brothers and sisters who do.

If someone is aware of the differences in recreational and medical utility between AAA hash and AAA oil, and posts such a comment, then it reminds me of the axiom, "The poorer the product is perceived by the seller, the harder the sell".

It also of course, leaves me to wonder what their end game agenda is.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Let's see how close we can get to making bubble hash without making bubble hash.

Lose the petrochemicals, and just make ice wax.

Hard to tell if you are that uneducated on the subject or just looking to stir shit, but you will find the folks most likely to agree with you on the following threads: https://www.icmag.com/ic/forumdisplay.php?f=65756

 

[Photosynthesis]

Hard to tell if you are that uneducated on the subject or just looking to stir shit, but you will find the folks most likely to agree with you on the following threads: https://www.icmag.com/ic/forumdisplay.php?f=65756

More than educated. Not trying to stir shit either. Just want the new people that get on this forum to see that there is a safer way to make, and use "concentrates."

I have yet to see someone use a "bubble" type product, and pass out cold on the floor.

You see that everyday here in Denver from Petrochemical BHO.

I wonder what the difference is?

If it is from a testing standard, then I know places getting close to 80% on their "bubble" type products. So that doesn't seem to be the case.

As far as ease of production, and "running" as much material as possible, as fast as possible, I can see that there are benefits from a financial stand point for using petrochemicals to make a "concentrate."

That being said, we could list the detrimental outcomes of a million products that were developed based solely off of price point.

The other thing that is not talked about in the "concentrate" threads is the "concentration" of the chemicals, and pesticides that the "non-organic" plants were grown with.

Not only are you "concentrating" the "good", you are also "concentrating" the bad.

Here in Denver there are many grows that run hydroponics, and coco drip systems that are using "chemicals" that are to only be used on ornamental plants. They are then harvesting these plants, and using petrochemicals to "concentrate" the plants down to a dabbable product.

Even if you are using C02 then you are "concentrating" these same chemicals.

What's the long term health effects from daily use of these types of products? Only time will tell. If it is safe, then no problem, but if it is not, once the time has told us then there will be irreversible side effects.

My personal opinion is that BHO and the like is the new cigarettes.

I hope I am wrong, and welcome information that proves such.

 

[Photosynthesis]

Gray Wolf, I wanted to add that I am in no way as educated as you, and I don't even know if I ever will be. I do recognize your place in this industry, and that you would be considered at the least one of the "kings" of concentrates.

I don't want to take away from this thread, and I certainly don't want to unintentionally bring in any negativity.

For these reason I will stay out of these types of threads. As it seems to be a Pepsi, Coke thing at this point.

 

[UNREGISTRD]

This thread is about live resin.. NOT bubble hash...go troll someone elses thread...

Back on topic...

 

[Photosynthesis]

The word troll is used more then a $2 whore.

It's kind of like when Criss Jenner is saying "Bitches" it loses it's magic.

We really need to come up with something that actually stings.

 

[gaiusmarius]

lol i guess the hash heads are trying to get you guys off the heavy stuff, lmao. just kidding, i really do see the point of oil for medical. but for the average user, do they really need oil? you can make hash that can be dabbed too, seems to me all the butane use just to concentrate a bit higher then normal good fmcd hash is a bit of a downer for your average user. it's a kind of un needed extension of your co2 footprint. but on top of that you have the worry about heavy metals and pesticides being concentrated along with the trichomes, unless you grow and make your own. last but not least comes the highly explosive nature of butane. so yeah, i can understand you folks that feel you need it, but i would hope you'd understand that some people have questions and worries about certain aspects of this recent boom in bho use

 

[NEGT1]

More than educated. Not trying to stir shit either. Just want the new people that get on this forum to see that there is a safer way to make, and use "concentrates."

I have yet to see someone use a "bubble" type product, and pass out cold on the floor.

You see that everyday here in Denver from Petrochemical BHO.

I wonder what the difference is?

If it is from a testing standard, then I know places getting close to 80% on their "bubble" type products. So that doesn't seem to be the case.

As far as ease of production, and "running" as much material as possible, as fast as possible, I can see that there are benefits from a financial stand point for using petrochemicals to make a "concentrate."

That being said, we could list the detrimental outcomes of a million products that were developed based solely off of price point.

The other thing that is not talked about in the "concentrate" threads is the "concentration" of the chemicals, and pesticides that the "non-organic" plants were grown with.

Not only are you "concentrating" the "good", you are also "concentrating" the bad.

Here in Denver there are many grows that run hydroponics, and coco drip systems that are using "chemicals" that are to only be used on ornamental plants. They are then harvesting these plants, and using petrochemicals to "concentrate" the plants down to a dabbable product.

Even if you are using C02 then you are "concentrating" these same chemicals.

What's the long term health effects from daily use of these types of products? Only time will tell. If it is safe, then no problem, but if it is not, once the time has told us then there will be irreversible side effects.

My personal opinion is that BHO and the like is the new cigarettes.

I hope I am wrong, and welcome information that proves such.

Not going to go through to correct the lies in your post but do you realize that more people read this and walk away laughing than walk away saying they're going to buy bubble bags?

 

[Gray Wolf]

More than educated.

If you are more than educated brother PS, I wonder how you have missed the point that medical cannabis relies heavily on concentrates, in manners not possible with hash.

Not trying to stir shit either. Just want the new people that get on this forum to see that there is a safer way to make, and use "concentrates."

I have yet to see someone use a "bubble" type product, and pass out cold on the floor.

You've led a sheltered life bro! I have see brothers pass out from coughing on a ragged doobie.

I submit that taking huge dabs is more of the issue.

You see that everyday here in Denver from Petrochemical BHO.

I wonder what the difference is?

If it is from a testing standard, then I know places getting close to 80% on their "bubble" type products. So that doesn't seem to be the case.

Considering the cellulose content of bubble, you must be talking about some highly refined material, because our oil yield from the average bubble isn't 80%.

As far as ease of production, and "running" as much material as possible, as fast as possible, I can see that there are benefits from a financial stand point for using petrochemicals to make a "concentrate."

That being said, we could list the detrimental outcomes of a million products that were developed based solely off of price point.

Solely based off price point seems a stretch when you can't possibly cover the bases with bubble that are covered by oil concentrates. How about the part about being solely based on need and choice.

The other thing that is not talked about in the "concentrate" threads is the "concentration" of the chemicals, and pesticides that the "non-organic" plants were grown with.

Not only are you "concentrating" the "good", you are also "concentrating" the bad.

Here in Denver there are many grows that run hydroponics, and coco drip systems that are using "chemicals" that are to only be used on ornamental plants. They are then harvesting these plants, and using petrochemicals to "concentrate" the plants down to a dabbable product.

If you believe that material so contaminated is purified by the bubble process, and the evil spirits are not concentrated, then I suggest you research has not been as through as you would have us believe. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit, regardless of the process.

Even if you are using C02 then you are "concentrating" these same chemicals.

What's the long term health effects from daily use of these types of products? Only time will tell. If it is safe, then no problem, but if it is not, once the time has told us then there will be irreversible side effects.

Saying for a moment that we ignore the decades of research done by professional hygienist as to the effects of the chemicals that we are using, evoking mumbo jumbo hysteria as to evil spirits from the unknown is reaching for straws to support your position, when sufficient support is lacking.

My personal opinion is that BHO and the like is the new cigarettes.

Thanks for qualifying that it is your personal opinion on BHO, because it is clear from your lack of research that you lack the perspective to sway much opinion on this forum.

That again leads me to the question of why someone so uninformed would post such a challenge on this forum, when you can guarantee that the more informed brothers and sisters on the subject, can easily take your shallow argument apart?????

I hope I am wrong, and welcome information that proves such.

My perception is that you closed your mind to the information already readily available, or we wouldn't be having this conversation, so I have no intention of trying to prove anything to you.

My perception is also that you want to tell others how to live their lives, based on your shallow research and personal biases.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Gray Wolf, I wanted to add that I am in no way as educated as you, and I don't even know if I ever will be. I do recognize your place in this industry, and that you would be considered at the least one of the "kings" of concentrates.

I don't want to take away from this thread, and I certainly don't want to unintentionally bring in any negativity.

For these reason I will stay out of these types of threads. As it seems to be a Pepsi, Coke thing at this point.

The only thing my "education" has brought me is greater recognition of my own ignorance, so I'm not king of anything. I've learned as much from my students as they have from me.

Thanks for ceasing your proselytizing for hash on this forum brother PS.

As I previously noted, there is a whole family of top notch brothers and sisters who share your sentiment on the forum specially dedicated to those whom love it best, which keeps the threads focused on both forums.

 

[Pangea]

Lets hear it for the moderates! Those that can appreciate and enjoy quality cannabis in all its forms.

 

[gaiusmarius]

what about the argument based on the pesticides and heavy metals getting concentrated in the oil? is that not true?

with the mechanical hash making method you are concentrating trich heads them selves to make the concentrate. with oil you are extracting on a chemical level, there by extracting everything from the plant mater that is butane soluable, or not? true, good quality product, grown in a clean way, is gonna get you clean oil, but if it's been grown with a bunch of chemicals, your oil will contain said chemicals, if i'm not mistaken? where as even if you have badly grown product you are making hash with, you are collecting only the trich heads, so you actually end up consuming less pesticides etc from hash made from industrial produced weed, then you would with oil made from the same starting material?

to me that should be the next step, testing for all this stuff before allowing it for sale in a dispensary. if i am not understanding this issue correctly, i'd appreciate being put on the right track. like i said before i'm not into telling folks what is right for them, but i think people should know all the facts. when i read about people making oil from crap product and adding terps it makes me wonder what was all in that weed that it was crap in the first place.

 

[Gray Wolf]

lol i guess the hash heads are trying to get you guys off the heavy stuff, lmao. just kidding, i really do see the point of oil for medical. but for the average user, do they really need oil? you can make hash that can be dabbed too, seems to me all the butane use just to concentrate a bit higher then normal good fmcd hash is a bit of a downer for your average user. it's a kind of un needed extension of your co2 footprint. but on top of that you have the worry about heavy metals and pesticides being concentrated along with the trichomes, unless you grow and make your own. last but not least comes the highly explosive nature of butane. so yeah, i can understand you folks that feel you need it, but i would hope you'd understand that some people have questions and worries about certain aspects of this recent boom in bho use

Some good points brother GM!

"Does the average user really need oil", and I guess the answer lies in who gets to define need.

If the end user is the one whose vote counts, then I have to say that it is clear how those using oil concentrates are voting with their feet.

Amen on metals and pesticides! Whether it is oil concentrates, or top shelf bubble, they should both be tested for pesticides and solvent to be sold to the public, as well as for heavy metals from some of the plant foods that are used by some growers.

With butane's dielectric constant of 1.4 and waters of 80.4, I would question that butane would be more prone to pickup and transport heavy metal ions than water, and would guess the opposite would be true.

Certainly any heavy metals on the trichomes would most likely still be there, taking us back to your excellent statement about growing and making your own.

With legalization is coming regulation and those issues have already been called into question, as are they the focus of testing professionals, with doctorates, currently attempting to write those regulations.

Anyone paying attention is concerned not only about the unregulated quality of the current market, but the BHOtards blowing themselves and others up open extracting indoors, and it always a good idea to get the attention of those whom are still ignorant on those pitfalls, but I question whether another "ban" is the answer, or if we would be better served addressing the overall quality issue and BHOtards .

I believe in the latter, so have agreed to donate time to CENTA, the organization dedicated to writing professional cannabis industry standards and to continue perfecting safer and saner oil extraction.

Ultimately, the decisions will be made for us if we don't get our fledgling industry in control.

On the question of choice, I am reminded of one of own life experiences as the new plant manager of a small electronics assembly plant employing four men, and about 50 women.

A representative from the younger women approached me and asked for a Tampax machine in the womens bathroom, to go with the Kotex machine.

I agreed and turned in a requisition to make it so, which was blocked by the female purchasing manager, whom didn't believe in women using Tampax and didn't report to me.

I did push it to the president, after the vice president whom she did report to ignored me, and did get my younger women Tampax, because I didn't understand why such a choice shouldn't be their's.

My question is at what point to we tell others how to live their lives, and I lean more toward educating them so that their eyes are open, and stopping them if they are endangering others, which some will because we have idiots, sociopaths, and psychopaths running amuck amongst us, despite our best efforts.

All good points for discussion on this thread as well, and from my perspective, more on point than a post promoting bubble hash.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Lets hear it for the moderates! Those that can appreciate and enjoy quality cannabis in all its forms.

A very good point! What documented bad forms of cannabis are there?

Except for my position against combustion, I salute them all!

 

[Daub Marley]

what about the argument based on the pesticides and heavy metals getting concentrated in the oil? is that not true?

If there are heavy metal ions they are trapped in the xylem and in the plant's cells. The non-polar butane probably would not interact with the metal ions very much, and most should be left in the spent plant material. IMO using water would pull out those ions better, but would also be drained away after, so which is safer in terms of heavy metal toxicity is unknown, but either way would be far better than just smoking the buds. It really should be of little concern in most forms of concentrates.

with oil you are extracting on a chemical level, there by extracting everything from the plant mater that is butane soluable

That's a fair point. If the contaminant is non-polar then the butane will dissolve it in much greater quantities than if just the trichome heads were extracted. Some extraction artists have reported neem oil contamination.
If this were the case it should be somewhat obvious, and might prevent exposure whereas with physical extraction you might not spot it as easily. Solvent extraction can be easily cleaned though.

 

[Gray Wolf]

what about the argument based on the pesticides and heavy metals getting concentrated in the oil? is that not true?

with the mechanical hash making method you are concentrating trich heads them selves to make the concentrate. with oil you are extracting on a chemical level, there by extracting everything from the plant mater that is butane soluable, or not? true, good quality product, grown in a clean way, is gonna get you clean oil, but if it's been grown with a bunch of chemicals, your oil will contain said chemicals, if i'm not mistaken? where as even if you have badly grown product you are making hash with, you are collecting only the trich heads, so you actually end up consuming less pesticides etc from hash made from industrial produced weed, then you would with oil made from the same starting material?

to me that should be the next step, testing for all this stuff before allowing it for sale in a dispensary. if i am not understanding this issue correctly, i'd appreciate being put on the right track. like i said before i'm not into telling folks what is right for them, but i think people should know all the facts. when i read about people making oil from crap product and adding terps it makes me wonder what was all in that weed that it was crap in the first place.

No argument that material contaminated with heavy metals will produce concentrates contaminated with heavy metals, and there should be zero tolerance for either. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit!

I don't agree that butane necessarily concentrates all of those evil spirits, or that they are are even soluble in it.

You would have to look at them one at a time, with both butane and water and sort them out.

The core of the matter as I see it, is that contaminated material is being extracted and sold to the public, whether it is hash or oil.

Neither extraction would be allowed in a regulated system, which is most definitely the direction that we are headed.

Occum's razor suggest that cutting to the bottom line should be as simple as looking at analysis of oil, and hash when testing for the substances of concern.

Analysis to date that I've seen don't support the premise that we have a major problem with either hash or oil.

Unfortunately, to your point, they also show that we are not without problems in those areas, as well as with other things like aflatoxins, hence the movement to regulate and protect us from un-responsible suppliers.

The way the food and drug market has already been regulated.

I guess we would have to define crap for me to have an opinion on your last point. I saw some concentrate that was from last years harvest and which was effective, but too dark an amber to be attractive on the current market, so one of my clients sent it in to be turned into a "clear concentrate" for shits and giggles.

I might note, that trichomes harvested from the material were already dark amber, so whatever produces the dark amber color is not necessarily exclusive to solvent extraction.

What returned was something resembling a pale whipped honey, with virtually no smell or flavor, with total cannabinoids measuring in the high 90's.

It resembled what might be produced by molecular distillation, and lost about 30% of the starting weight.

It was bland to my taste, and smooth to my lungs, producing slow arriving, but long lasting head and body effects. The effects were more sedative and relaxing than soaring flights of fancy, but there was no question of potency and smoothness.

While not soaring or impressive, it was good enough that on a scale of one to ten, I think most folks would rate it between a five and a ten on smoothness and effect, and certainly not rate it close to being crap.

With younger material, and some of its terpenes added back, many might give it top marks in quality, appearance, aroma, taste, and effect.

A key point however, is that the material wasn't considered grade two because it was contaminated, but because it was aging, so it produced dark amber trichomes and dark amber oil, with the same aroma as the aged starting material, neither of which are considered purdy by current market standards.

 

[gaiusmarius]

thanks for that break down GW. i was obviously talking about crap in the context of the post, ie weed grown with pesticides, or containing other contaminants. i won't list all the potential stuff thats used by growers. but yes it seems it all needs to be individually looked at and safe amounts decided. as for aflatoxins, how do you make sure there are none in the end product, is it as simple as not using moldy buds to make oil?

the old neem will screw with your bubble hash too, although you can give the trichomes on the screen a very thorough shower to rinse it really well which seems to dilute the neem enough that the end product no longer tastes bad. but yeah it's why i won't spray my flowering plants. i don't want a drop of neem or anything else, not even plant food, to touch any part that ill be making hash from or smoking for that matter. prefer to dump a strain that needs spraying and look for something with more resilience.

damn now i'll be worrying about other peoples bubble hash when i get offered it, lol.

 

[mofeta]

Sorry for the bad post.

 

[Daub Marley]

Solvent concentrates = safe medicine for sick people

True but it should be syringe filtered first.

 

[gaiusmarius]

don't want to hold up the thread topic too much, but it seems a bit of a strawman argument to say; most bubble isn't made and dried correctly, there by showing that bubble hash is non medical. the correct bubble hash making procedure all explain how the hash is to be made as small as possible and set out to dry thoroughly. it's really about the starting material and the exact step by step tech.

maybe we should compile a list of things that growers mention using and grow suppliers sell for spraying on plants, then break them down for water solubility, butane solubility and alcohol solubility. that way you know what to test for in both oil and bubble hash. one should pay special attention to the possibility of concentrating some of these things being used on plants. i.e. what would be particularly prone to get concentrated in bubble hash and how harmful it is, same with oil. as you mentioned there will even be ways some contaminates could be removed. but yeah it warrants taking a very close look, specially for anyone working on regulations for this market and researching for quality control tests that would be needed in order to insure a benign end product, be it bubble hash or bho oil.

apparently the bigger producers in Canada are having quite some difficulty keeping their buds mold free. a lot of crops of buds have been irradiated in Canada before sale due to the high mold content of the legally produced crops. that at least would make sure no dangerous molds, but what else will be lost i wonder? anyway it's all very interesting and i will continue to watch you oil heads solve these potential problems, or work out ways around them.