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Inside Out Trees, Silo Op, custom RDWC, water cooled
- Thread starter Ttystikk
- Start date
RedBeardy5
Active member
Lswm- I know what you are saying about rollitup, that's why I generally stay over here. I never could grasp ppk, does the lower reservoir pump water up to the top then just circulate? I would like to try it out.
If you download the pdf I linked above it explains it all, but in great detail.
In short: The "tailpipe(s)" coming out of the bottom of the upper bucket are packed with media. A float valve, generally in a separate control bucket linked to each bottom bucket, is used to keep the levels in the lower bucket at each site at a certain level.
What this does is eliminate the perched water table from the rootzone and concentrates it in a smaller area in the tailpiece. An adjustable float valve allows you to change the height of this level if need be. The water level is literally sucked down into the tailpiece due to various physical laws that govern fluids. Because of this, you get a more even rootzone and can flood more often with better results, as well as recirculate with ease due to lack of anaerobic areas for root rot to take hold.
...at least that is the theory behind it. I fail to see how it could be any better than straight coco pots once fully rooted and dripped as often as need be, as the perched water table is almost non existent at that point and even when flooded to runoff it is quickly absorbed again.
It does have the advantage of not needing to deal with runoff however since everything is contained. Runoff can become a serious problem as the grow enlarges depending on the location.
So I built one anyway. I figured worst case is I would just plumb the thing into my waste water plumbing and it would turn into a single 5 gal coco dtw tub with runoff handled. Next time around I'm running floor dry (Napa 8822) straight from a clone in pumice.
In short: The "tailpipe(s)" coming out of the bottom of the upper bucket are packed with media. A float valve, generally in a separate control bucket linked to each bottom bucket, is used to keep the levels in the lower bucket at each site at a certain level.
What this does is eliminate the perched water table from the rootzone and concentrates it in a smaller area in the tailpiece. An adjustable float valve allows you to change the height of this level if need be. The water level is literally sucked down into the tailpiece due to various physical laws that govern fluids. Because of this, you get a more even rootzone and can flood more often with better results, as well as recirculate with ease due to lack of anaerobic areas for root rot to take hold.
...at least that is the theory behind it. I fail to see how it could be any better than straight coco pots once fully rooted and dripped as often as need be, as the perched water table is almost non existent at that point and even when flooded to runoff it is quickly absorbed again.
It does have the advantage of not needing to deal with runoff however since everything is contained. Runoff can become a serious problem as the grow enlarges depending on the location.
So I built one anyway. I figured worst case is I would just plumb the thing into my waste water plumbing and it would turn into a single 5 gal coco dtw tub with runoff handled. Next time around I'm running floor dry (Napa 8822) straight from a clone in pumice.
twist1uc
Member
Ttystikk,
LOOKING GOOD buddy!!!!
In this cylinder type set up, I've noticed some people put their plants on the inside of the trellis and yours is on the outside. I'm not saying it negatively, but I am wondering your thoughts on inside vs outside of the trellis.
It seems that it might be easier to train/manage them on the outside. But I wonder if more plant surface is hit by the light if they were on the inside.
LOOKING GOOD buddy!!!!
In this cylinder type set up, I've noticed some people put their plants on the inside of the trellis and yours is on the outside. I'm not saying it negatively, but I am wondering your thoughts on inside vs outside of the trellis.
It seems that it might be easier to train/manage them on the outside. But I wonder if more plant surface is hit by the light if they were on the inside.
RE: PPK - Tomato-heads have something similar, an earth box. Who's the egg and who's the chicken?
An earth box is bottom watered through passive wicking, no? This is more of a sump/gravity wick to keep the PWT (Perched Water Table) in a smaller area outside the rootzone. It's also watered via flood cycles and a timer, as many as 12-24 times daily depending on media.
I almost did what Ttystikk did with his trellising last time I built my trays, but I decided it was going to be a pain to setup with my current situation, and that it would be more difficult to defoliate nugs once they were inside the cage. My current trellis is just horizontal strings in an octagon at ~8" spacing. It means more twist ties, but it also mean EASY access. Seems to work for me. Cheaper too.
EDIT: Sorry for stepping in Ttystikk, lol. I think the info is still valuable seeing as how I was looking at stealing exactly your design and these were the reasons I chose to do what I did.
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Ttystikk
Member
I appreciate your questions, as it tells me you're thinking in depth about my ideas. Tough to be offended by that, but I guess some people manage...
I placed my plants against the outside of the trellis frame for several reasons;
1. Ease of placement and access- since my silos are accessible from the outside unlike a closet grow, it made sense to just plaster the plant against the trellis instead of trying to drag it inside. Also, plant training and maintenance is simplified... to put it mildly.
2. One major goal of the design was to force as much of the plant's working biomass into the zone of ideal distance from the bulb as possible. Since that zone looks like a radar dish (for reasons that are NOT coincidental! Physics works the same way EVERYWHERE), it stands to reason the plants should, too.
3. The plant never stops growing until chop; what changes is WHERE it grows. In veg, what you're really growing is the stalk- the plumbing. In stretch, you're growing bud sites and in peak bloom you're growing the buds themselves. The plumbing can stay outside the trellis, while the rest can grow thru and then get unobstructed light. I'm not sure it matters much; plants grown up the inside and similarly pinned in place sure seem to do well in other people's pics. It might boil down to a matter of access and preference.
4. I think the winning combo might be to special order 4x4" mesh wire fencing. It will still stand up, it will still have plenty of places to clip branches on, but you'll be able to stick your arm thru to work and pull buds back thru at harvest. I've currently got 2x4" and I'm seriously thinking about the upgrade.
Nah man, the whole reason I'm still here is to get the word out. Ask your questions! PLEASE!
Ttystikk
Member
Hourly watering solves any problems of adequate oxygenation. What, if any, are the advantages over RDWC, in your opinion?
I must say that I'm impressed with the performance of big tub RDWC; it's never failed to support my quest for ever bigger individual plants, my personal best is now 2 1/2#. Indoors.
Ttystikk
Member
Theft is the sincerest form of flattery, lol. I like the strings idea. I'm going to try 4x4" mesh fencing and see if it's the compromise that works. Otherwise I'll end up stealing YOUR idea! LMAO!
I think the 4x4 mesh is ideal. I was just talking about how access was an issue, and I got tired of reaching in there this morning, even with the easy access... So I had a revelation!
I turned off the bulb and just stepped inside. It's the easiest way to trim those big fans blocking the light for sure. No question about it.
4x4 mesh with a 2 foot space at the bottom letting you crawl inside will probably be my next trellis setup. The string was just too cheap/easy to setup, lol.
I can't really say as I've never run RDWC. I ran from RDWC being scared of root rot, and it's ability to infect all your buckets, or if you are growing large plants, take down your tree if shit goes south. Also RDWC means lots of checking pH, EC, etc.... Apparently in the ppk you don't need to check those though. If a pump goes out you still have the sump/bottom res to feed the plants. In RDWC you are basically fucked if that happens and you don't catch it.
RDWC or aeroponics was my original plan when I first began, then I discovered the ease of DTW coco multifeed and never looked back. If a pump goes out I have ~1 day until things start to fall apart without correction, so the PPK does have that advantage as well.
Ttystikk
Member
RDWC = Recirculating Death Without Cause
LMFAO! I about fell over laughing when I heard that the first time, as it described my experience with the system to a tee- right up until the day I dropped a chiller coil in it. Since that day, not a single problem related to roots- although I had a root aphid infestation for a short time and a couple of plants have gotten stem rot at the top of the media- so that's not directly RDWC related.
I've never had a pump failure that killed plants. That goes double now that I tossed my air pumps, so there is less to fail.
LMFAO! I about fell over laughing when I heard that the first time, as it described my experience with the system to a tee- right up until the day I dropped a chiller coil in it. Since that day, not a single problem related to roots- although I had a root aphid infestation for a short time and a couple of plants have gotten stem rot at the top of the media- so that's not directly RDWC related.
I've never had a pump failure that killed plants. That goes double now that I tossed my air pumps, so there is less to fail.
Hey Ttystikk! Your expertise would be greatly appreciated in my thread over here: 2 4-8k flipping flower rooms + 1 2-4k Veg room - Central vs Minisplit
Thanks bud!
Thanks bud!
a senile fungus
New member
@ttystikk
i made a name over here just to tell you how much fun this thread was to read.
good job, keep it going!
i made a name over here just to tell you how much fun this thread was to read.
good job, keep it going!
Ttystikk
Member
Ttystikk
Member
I've been opening up one seam of my trellis and stepping inside to work since I built them. Makes things easier, if you can get all the other shit out of the way first.
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Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
Love the thread I ran many circle screens like this and they are very productive. I found for myself that it was hard to train from the back like u do. Then I would get inside and train. That turned in to a sticky mess lol. I recently switched to individual screens (ala icky style)and life has never been easier for training. Also its much easier to keep each girl trained to her specific screen that way.
Ttystikk
Member
That's excellent feedback. Can you describe just how you made those individual trellis so they stand up?
