The REAL "Banana OG" from Original "OrgnKid" Genetics

[Infinitesimal]

Okay... First Off, Way to go being a dick by asking Rhetorical Questions and insulting everything I'm shooting for to learn from years of previous grows and watching for small details whilst in a bond with my plants to the soul, and the recent knowledge I've received from other fellow ICMager's.

Secondly!.... If you know so much on the topic, [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Infinitesimal[/FONT]. Why don't you just Enlighten us ALL without being a Rhetorical "dick"tater as I requested previously on the matter.

way to resort to name calling... take things personal much, do you?

Instead of asking questions, so you could reveal your own lack of knowledge, would my reception been a warmer one had I just came out and told you how wrong you are about the things you speak of? I honestly don't know which one is more polite/rude so excuse me if I didn't offer the best tact possible in my attempt to communicate with you. For that I apologize.


LOL, enlightenment what do you think this is kundalini yoga? It is science... there is no enlightenment, no great epiphanies... only dedication to study and understand plant science and genetics, you would need years of studying before you and I can even communicate on some kind of level of basic comprehension... Tom Hill says it all the time... go read a book, SMH.

well, First off, you are posting this in the "breeders Lab" and I expect someone here to be a professional and be able to answer my questions with ease, even more so actually understand what I am talking about. (I don't even post my projects in here, yet, as I consider it for the "big boys" [figuratively of course ] that are actually highly knowledgable with years of experience)... and as for me-
"Questions everything I'm shooting for to learn from years of previous grows and watching for small details whilst in a bond with my plants to the soul, and the recent knowledge I've received from other fellow ICMager's."... by the looks of your CFL grow and your use of genetic terminology I would say you haven't learned much or have been learning from the wrong people. I'm not hating on you just being honest, and aside from your lack of breeding knowledge, your plant looks healthy but far from anything special.



Secondly, you are the one claiming breeding prowess (you are going to make an IBL from 2 seeds? ) without an inkling of knowledge on the subject... which is evident by your use or should I say misuse of terminology.

Don't be upset at me because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about... I suggest you go back to school and take an entry level biology class, because you clearly weren't paying attention in high school... then maybe read a book on cannabis specific genetics... I would recommend Greg Greens Cannabis Breeders Bible, that is, once you have a basic understanding of beginners biology.... that way you can actually communicate with the knowledgable people here on ICM, otherwise people that have the knowledge won't even waste their time trying to educate you (and I know this from experience). I can guarantee you haven't gotten help from any ICmaggers that are actually knowledgeable on the subject (as there are very few) for one because you wouldn't be able to communicate what you mean in proper terminology nor would you understand what they are saying to you (similar to our conversation here). And two if you had learned from communicating with people like; Tom Hill, Chimera, Sam S and a few others , you wouldn't be saying a lot of the BS that you have because it is sooo so far off base (it's not even funny really).

Cannabis Genetics is my passion and even with the knowledge that I do have on the subject... I am currently making plans on going back to college to earn a degree in plant science and genetics, so take no offense in my comments... it is just something that is important to me and should be equally important to anyone calling themselves a breeder. If you had not posted this in the breeders laboratory I would not have even bothered posting in your thread and would left you on your marry pollen chucking way... I would suggest moving the thread if you are not interested in learning and doing ACTUAL breeding work. IMO if you post here, in the lab, you need to know what you talking about or be ready to get called out on it. Plain And Simple.

I could expose you to some helpful information if you ARE actually interested in learning and not just interested in being an egotistical twat, patting yourself on the back because you made some seeds in a half assed manner. Just an FYI, anyone with a brainstem can make seeds.


thanks for calling me a dick though, keep talking dirty to me bb

Get em, girl.

Your plants look really nice, good luck with your project.

oh yeah, She's gonna conquer the canna world with her "RL banana OG IBL1", lol

Ras, you kiss ass

 

[Infinitesimal]

so making S1's increases hermaphroditism? if so how does it do this, if the traits for sexual expression are carried via X and Y chromosomes it means that the sex is determined by the genotype... meaning that unless you can effect the genotype there should be no change in the hermaphrodite rates from generation to generation... do colloidal silver, STS or any other form of ethylene suppression used to create feminized seed cause germline mutations that would effect an otherwise sexually stable genotype?

Yes. They do Sir.

who is feeding you this Bull?


I will repeat, If so how does it do this?

you can claim that, but where is the proof? I know how CS and STS go about reversing the sex of plants... they are ethylene inhibitors and are not mutagenic and do not effect the genotype and therefor do not play a role in hermaphroditism... the factors associated with hermaphrodites are based on plant selection and testing many different plants from a population for intersex traits, and only using individuals that are supremely stable even under adverse conditions to use in feminized breeding... there is no higher or lower instances of intersex between standard vs. feminized seeds when comparing apples to apples... the frequency of intersex expression comes down to proper plant selection. (don't take my word for it either, ask people like Tom,Sam and Chimera they would offer the same opinion... as those are the facts)

so in reality you, not doing any selection, are more likely to get hermies from your 2 seed breeding program than someone who properly selects a plant and then makes feminized seeds via ethylene inhibition.

anything else?

 

[Dr.Young]

I wish I spoke to someone with half the brain you have over the years of reading on Overgrow, and here lol...

Dont dabble in the feud.

K++++

PM to be had on the topic of breeding, IBL, S1, etc for damn sure.. I have a 99-00' Apollo-11 female I want to try to breed true as I can to achieve a gem of hopefully "f1s", and crosses. I have 10 Super Lemon Haze x Og99, and 10 ppp x bogglegum that I just popped (seedlings). I want to get as much breeding knowledge as I can so I can start really working my Males/Females/keepers.

 

[Infinitesimal]

I wish I spoke to someone with half the brain you have over the years of reading on Overgrow, and here lol...

Dont dabble in the feud.

K++++

PM to be had on the topic of breeding, IBL, S1, etc for damn sure.. I have a 99-00' Apollo-11 female I want to try to breed true as I can to achieve a gem of hopefully "f1s", and crosses. I have 10 Super Lemon Haze x Og99, and 10 ppp x bogglegum that I just popped (seedlings). I want to get as much breeding knowledge as I can so I can start really working my Males/Females/keepers.

I didn't intend to create any feud, she can't learn and grows as a "breeder" if she first doesn't recognize where she is lacking... that is all.

I make these kind of posts so others can also recognize accurate from inaccurate information... in regards to cannabis genetics.

I am glad you found some if it helpful, as un graceful as it may have been

for sure, I'd be happy to try and help you, though admittedly I am no expert... and working from scratch to find common ground to explain things can be very difficult. But I should be able to help you into the right direction at the very least.

 

[Randy Lahey]

I am a firm believer that this [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](ethylene inhibition) by Silver Colloidal, or STS is only a method for breeder/grower's who don't have enough patience to wait for the sex of their future gardens. The "Varuka Salts" of CannaWonka Land in my opinion. If you start your shit off on 12/12 like it's (SPRING) they will Sex early and you can begin to fade the hrs to 13,14 without causing trifoliation mutations or unifoliates...

But I am very curious actually sir....[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Without having the background varieties OG Kush and Sagarmartha's 60/40 that went into making it, if the strain is in fact like you mentioned an F1 Hybrid. [/FONT] Please explain to me how you save a "Strain" from only two seeds from the same "Strain" and it not be an (IBL) from an F1 after pollenating it with it's self even if those 2 seeds came from an F1.

Would it not be an F1 Inbred L1??
[/FONT]

 

[Randy Lahey]

Week 6

Week 7

Week 8

Week 9

Week 10

 

[Randy Lahey]

Week 1

Week 2

Week 3

Week 4

Week 5

 

[Randy Lahey]

The Best pollenated lower bud to show.

 

[DrPimpNugs]

Lot's of great knowledge being dropped here, albeit slightly condescending, I believe this man was trying to help you by exposing the fact that you are trying to run before walk. You simplified a hyper complex process of inheritance when in reality hereditary laws determine which genes will be expressed(alleles).

So even if you have a specific genome, only certain traits will be expressed based not only on hereditary laws, but by what environmental stimulus causes those specific traits to express. So a plant can have 5 sets of genes, all for cola density, but only one is expressed via phenotypical expression of its characteristics based on environment. Furthermore phenotypical representation may be more complex, based upon what traits are quantified. Which is what he was getting at, but to be more specific "Quantitative trait loci (QTLs) are stretches of DNA containing or linked to the genes that underlie a quantitative trait."

What this breaks down to is that:

• Traits may be linked to multiple genes within the genotype
• the traits may be inherited but so will the unexpressed genes
• Resulting generations will have multiple sets of genes from two parents further resulting in heterozygous expression of offspring

This means that by me breeding together two plants, of the same genome, I will get 10 sets of genes for cola density, instead of the same 5 I might get in an S1(correct me if Im wrong on that one guys) which is why S1's will express more recessive traits that would not otherwise be dominant in its phenotypical expression. So by having two parents, if even of the same offspring, and are inbred, they will still have double the odds of expressing those alternative genes(double the odds which are not already even because of gene dominance and linked genes/QTL's).

I believe a true breeding, or IBL is identified not when two siblings are paired, but when 100/100 strains will exhibit the same exact quantified traits is it considered to be called an IBL. Calling it an IBL would be premature, as it's not technically a line yet, and the resulting populations will be potentially, very heterozygous in nature. Hope I didnt botch any of this information too bad. cheers.

 

[Infinitesimal]

I am a firm believer that this [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](ethylene inhibition) by Silver Colloidal, or STS is only a method for breeder/grower's who don't have enough patience to wait for the sex of their future gardens. The "Varuka Salts" of CannaWonka Land in my opinion. If you start your shit off on 12/12 like it's (SPRING) they will Sex early and you can begin to fade the hrs to 13,14 without causing trifoliation mutations or unifoliates...[/FONT]

nice Wily Wonka and the chocolate factory reference, but who doesn't want it now?! j/K I understand why you have that opinion... and I used to believe that feminizing was a problem... but that is the great thing about educating ones self, we can trade our beliefs which keep us ignorant for a scientific understanding that allows us to grow. but trifoliates and other mutations are genetic and again CS and STS are not mutagens... meaning they don't actually physically damage or alter the DNA... what they do is inhibit ethylene production during meiosis and the formation of gamete cells causing the female to produce sperm and pollen instead of ovum and calyx.

now, do hack breeders use femming to cash in quick without doing proper selection work... yes of course. But that doesn't mean the technique when properly applied doesn't have useful purposes. for instance when trying to select females from a population one way to determine; whether the individuals are heterozygous, homozygous, or otherwise exhibit incomplete/co dominance, or if they are polygenic... for the traits you desire. Then it is useful to self the individual females and compare the offspring and the phenotypic ratios... and in this way we can learn the genotype of the plant without having to add any genes from another plant (another genotype). Also and beyond that, it is a good way to create more homozygosity per generation when done correctly by growing out hundreds of seeds and selecting only the best representations to self again and or use in your standard M/F breeding. using what is sometimes called the pyramid method, where you start with many sibling combinations and then whittle it down by culling out the weakest populations and only propagating the best combinations from the parallel lines until eventually you have a single line that contains all the best traits... this method can be done M/F or fem only buy IMO used in conjunction is best.

But I am very curious actually sir....

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Without having the background varieties OG Kush and Sagarmartha's 60/40 that went into making it, if the strain is in fact like you mentioned an F1 Hybrid. Please explain to me how you save a "Strain" from only two seeds from the same "Strain" and it not be an (IBL) from an F1 after pollenating it with it's self even if those 2 seeds came from an F1.

Would it not be an F1 Inbred L1??
[/FONT]

Please, no need to call me sir.

well, as far as I know it is an F1, I never heard reports of it ever being anything but an OG x 60/40 cross... which without denoting F2,F3, Bx, Bx2, IBL... it is standard to assume that it is an F1 cross since that is what most breeders make (most are pretty salty ) and what 60/40 was is completely unknown except to maybe the breeders of Sag.

in which case, you would be making second filial generation Banana OG, so no not an IBL,... it takes many many generations to create a true breeding seed variety. The term IBL is a cannabis seed marketing tool used by the wonkaland breeders you spoke of... people don't have IBL's in horticulture they have true breeding varieties. you have F2's

one thing, I don't think Orgnkid's banana OG is in any danger... there is a cut that is pretty widely shared which I believe was selected by him plus many people breed with it...

If it were me... and I was absolute dead set on preserving my own seed line of Banana OG I would make S1's of my female and F2's using the male as well as simultaneously looking to find the keeper Clone Only Banana OG and or maybe some well known hybrids of the clone and work it as a backcross to either your female and or the clone only if you can acquire it. then grow out as many of the seeds from all the crosses and begin culling lines and recombining the best representations of banana OG... at least without getting technical, those are ways it could be done. but definitely the less plants you have to work with, the better option selfing/feminizing becomes to reach your goal.

plant science, genetics... especially non mendelian genetics which is highly involved with cannabis... is very very complex and is impossible to discus much less explain the complexities to someone who is at present time unaware of them. a basic understanding of inheritance and mendelian rules is necessary to act as a foundation before even thinking of venturing into the world of serious cannabis breeding.

I have found a video series that is very helpful in regards to both standard mendelian genetics as well as much more advanced ideas and practices... I will start a genetics discussion thread where I will post a video and then prompt a discussion and Q and A session on the subject at hand.

I think that could help a lot of people understand a little bit more.

------------------------------
one tool I have picked up when trying to learn and communicate with people is to paraphrase... try and ask people questions by paraphrasing and restating what they just said... that way you can be sure that you understood them correctly if they say "yes, exactly"... or if you are wrong they can politely point out to you where you misunderstood them. maybe give it a try, I found it to help... especially to cut down on the anger that can sometimes be caused by simple miscommunication.

 

[DrPimpNugs]

nice Wily Wonka and the chocolate factory reference, but who doesn't want it now?! j/K I understand why you have that opinion... and I used to believe that feminizing was a problem... but that is the great thing about educating ones self, we can trade our beliefs which keep us ignorant for a scientific understanding that allows us to grow. but trifoliates and other mutations are genetic and again CS and STS are not mutagens... meaning they don't actually physically damage or alter the DNA... what they do is inhibit ethylene production during meiosis and the formation of gamete cells causing the female to produce sperm and pollen instead of ovum and calyx.

now, do hack breeders use femming to cash in quick without doing proper selection work... yes of course. But that doesn't mean the technique when properly applied doesn't have useful purposes. for instance when trying to select females from a population one way to determine; whether the individuals are heterozygous, homozygous, or otherwise exhibit incomplete/co dominance, or if they are polygenic... for the traits you desire. Then it is useful to self the individual females and compare the offspring and the phenotypic ratios... and in this way we can learn the genotype of the plant without having to add any genes from another plant (another genotype). Also and beyond that, it is a good way to create more homozygosity per generation when done correctly by growing out hundreds of seeds and selecting only the best representations to self again and or use in your standard M/F breeding. using what is sometimes called the pyramid method, where you start with many sibling combinations and then whittle it down by culling out the weakest populations and only propagating the best combinations from the parallel lines until eventually you have a single line that contains all the best traits... this method can be done M/F or fem only buy IMO used in conjunction is best.



Please, no need to call me sir.

well, as far as I know it is an F1, I never heard reports of it ever being anything but an OG x 60/40 cross... which without denoting F2,F3, Bx, Bx2, IBL... it is standard to assume that it is an F1 cross since that is what most breeders make (most are pretty salty ) and what 60/40 was is completely unknown except to maybe the breeders of Sag.

in which case, you would be making second filial generation Banana OG, so no not an IBL,... it takes many many generations to create a true breeding seed variety. The term IBL is a cannabis seed marketing tool used by the wonkaland breeders you spoke of... people don't have IBL's in horticulture they have true breeding varieties. you have F2's

one thing, I don't think Orgnkid's banana OG is in any danger... there is a cut that is pretty widely shared which I believe was selected by him plus many people breed with it...

If it were me... and I was absolute dead set on preserving my own seed line of Banana OG I would make S1's of my female and F2's using the male as well as simultaneously looking to find the keeper Clone Only Banana OG and or maybe some well known hybrids of the clone and work it as a backcross to either your female and or the clone only if you can acquire it. then grow out as many of the seeds from all the crosses and begin culling lines and recombining the best representations of banana OG... at least without getting technical, those are ways it could be done. but definitely the less plants you have to work with, the better option selfing/feminizing becomes to reach your goal.

plant science, genetics... especially non mendelian genetics which is highly involved with cannabis... is very very complex and is impossible to discus much less explain the complexities to someone who is at present time unaware of them. a basic understanding of inheritance and mendelian rules is necessary to act as a foundation before even thinking of venturing into the world of serious cannabis breeding.

I have found a video series that is very helpful in regards to both standard mendelian genetics as well as much more advanced ideas and practices... I will start a genetics discussion thread where I will post a video and then prompt a discussion and Q and A session on the subject at hand.

I think that could help a lot of people understand a little bit more.

------------------------------
one tool I have picked up when trying to learn and communicate with people is to paraphrase... try and ask people questions by paraphrasing and restating what they just said... that way you can be sure that you understood them correctly if they say "yes, exactly"... or if you are wrong they can politely point out to you where you misunderstood them. maybe give it a try, I found it to help... especially to cut down on the anger that can sometimes be caused by simple miscommunication.

not to hijack, but what would happen if I were to self pollinate an s1 with colloidal silver? Would it be an s2 and what usually is the expectation for such a generation, within breeding? Thanks in advance

 

[Randy Lahey]

nice Wily Wonka and the chocolate factory reference, but who doesn't want it now?! j/K I understand why you have that opinion... and I used to believe that feminizing was a problem... but that is the great thing about educating ones self, we can trade our beliefs which keep us ignorant for a scientific understanding that allows us to grow. but trifoliates and other mutations are genetic and again CS and STS are not mutagens... meaning they don't actually physically damage or alter the DNA... what they do is inhibit ethylene production during meiosis and the formation of gamete cells causing the female to produce sperm and pollen instead of ovum and calyx.

now, do hack breeders use femming to cash in quick without doing proper selection work... yes of course. But that doesn't mean the technique when properly applied doesn't have useful purposes. for instance when trying to select females from a population one way to determine; whether the individuals are heterozygous, homozygous, or otherwise exhibit incomplete/co dominance, or if they are polygenic... for the traits you desire. Then it is useful to self the individual females and compare the offspring and the phenotypic ratios... and in this way we can learn the genotype of the plant without having to add any genes from another plant (another genotype). Also and beyond that, it is a good way to create more homozygosity per generation when done correctly by growing out hundreds of seeds and selecting only the best representations to self again and or use in your standard M/F breeding. using what is sometimes called the pyramid method, where you start with many sibling combinations and then whittle it down by culling out the weakest populations and only propagating the best combinations from the parallel lines until eventually you have a single line that contains all the best traits... this method can be done M/F or fem only buy IMO used in conjunction is best.



Please, no need to call me sir.

well, as far as I know it is an F1, I never heard reports of it ever being anything but an OG x 60/40 cross... which without denoting F2,F3, Bx, Bx2, IBL... it is standard to assume that it is an F1 cross since that is what most breeders make (most are pretty salty ) and what 60/40 was is completely unknown except to maybe the breeders of Sag.

in which case, you would be making second filial generation Banana OG, so no not an IBL,... it takes many many generations to create a true breeding seed variety. The term IBL is a cannabis seed marketing tool used by the wonkaland breeders you spoke of... people don't have IBL's in horticulture they have true breeding varieties. you have F2's

one thing, I don't think Orgnkid's banana OG is in any danger... there is a cut that is pretty widely shared which I believe was selected by him plus many people breed with it...

If it were me... and I was absolute dead set on preserving my own seed line of Banana OG I would make S1's of my female and F2's using the male as well as simultaneously looking to find the keeper Clone Only Banana OG and or maybe some well known hybrids of the clone and work it as a backcross to either your female and or the clone only if you can acquire it. then grow out as many of the seeds from all the crosses and begin culling lines and recombining the best representations of banana OG... at least without getting technical, those are ways it could be done. but definitely the less plants you have to work with, the better option selfing/feminizing becomes to reach your goal.

plant science, genetics... especially non mendelian genetics which is highly involved with cannabis... is very very complex and is impossible to discus much less explain the complexities to someone who is at present time unaware of them. a basic understanding of inheritance and mendelian rules is necessary to act as a foundation before even thinking of venturing into the world of serious cannabis breeding.

I have found a video series that is very helpful in regards to both standard mendelian genetics as well as much more advanced ideas and practices... I will start a genetics discussion thread where I will post a video and then prompt a discussion and Q and A session on the subject at hand.

I think that could help a lot of people understand a little bit more.

------------------------------
one tool I have picked up when trying to learn and communicate with people is to paraphrase... try and ask people questions by paraphrasing and restating what they just said... that way you can be sure that you understood them correctly if they say "yes, exactly"... or if you are wrong they can politely point out to you where you misunderstood them. maybe give it a try, I found it to help... especially to cut down on the anger that can sometimes be caused by simple miscommunication.

Pls by ALL means people, Hijack this thread and post/discuss proper ways for me to understand how to breed this strain for personal seedbank and what the seeds will be step by step!!

I encourage it!! Just be nice to each other ICMager's!


VERY helpful information! I was under the impression that the original cut of this was no longer available. I can rest easier knowing now that it's at least still out there and people can enjoy! A hell of a Strain tho, Lanky but chunky & tasty results from what I've already tried from Her.

Thank You Boys!!!!

 

[Infinitesimal]

not to hijack, but what would happen if I were to self pollinate an s1 with colloidal silver? Would it be an s2 and what usually is the expectation for such a generation, within breeding? Thanks in advance

yes it would be an S2... well using a simple punnett square you can see that using the same genotype x to itself creates higher ratios of homozygosity, in the offspring, for the genes present in that individual (dominant or recessive, desirable or deleterious) so as long as selection is done carefully by testing several different S2 combinations (self crosses of several different S1's) the result should be higher phenotypic ratios expressing the traits you are breeding for.

 

[Randy Lahey]

Pics from Week 11!!!

 

[Davey420]

Looks really nice

 

[DrPimpNugs]

yes it would be an S2... well using a simple punnett square you can see that using the same genotype x to itself creates higher ratios of homozygosity, in the offspring, for the genes present in that individual (dominant or recessive, desirable or deleterious) so as long as selection is done carefully by testing several different S2 combinations (self crosses of several different S1's) the result should be higher phenotypic ratios expressing the traits you are breeding for.

Thanks that was what I figured, except I will only be working with one s1 for a project of mine, so I will only have S2's to work with. I am also guessing that by higher you mean lower, as in more stability and less variation correct?

Looking great Randy, if thats the same Banana OG I sampled in socal then it is some knockout indica power

 

[Randy Lahey]

And I will be making F2's?

 

[DrPimpNugs]

And I will be making F2's?

If you know what traits you are looking for from the parents, what you want for the line, then you pop all the F2's and then you can back cross the ones you like to the F1 parent again for stability.

 

[Infinitesimal]

Thanks that was what I figured, except I will only be working with one s1 for a project of mine, so I will only have S2's to work with. I am also guessing that by higher you mean lower, as in more stability and less variation correct?

the phenotype ratio refers to the relative ratio of phenotypes found in the progeny... a common ratio is 9/3/3/1 and I believe that is for a heterozygous dihyrid cross if I remember correctly from off the top of my head.

so with higher ratios of desired phenotypes comes less variation... sort of... as it depend on what traits you are breeding for, if you breed only for final quality then you could have high ratios of plants expressing your desired phenotype but still have massive amounts of variation among the traits you didn't select for (say growth structure, leaf shape, bud structure, flowering time etc etc).

why would you start your project with only one S1 seed? using one clone self crossed can produce thousands of S1's... you grow a bunch of the S1's and select the best from the S1 generation to make the S2's

 

[Randy Lahey]

An F2 Seed.