The names have been used interchangeably but they are not.
-SamS
-SamS
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Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.
- Thread starter high life 45
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So we should probably stop using the name Alfalfa Stem Nematode. Maybe just stem nematode or d. dipsaci?
What would be needed for accurate identification?? An electron microscope?
In CA, OR, CO, wouldn't department of agriculture do all they could, for legal growers, since it is tax income??? Also, universities.
If you make money off it, would be in your best interest to have positive identification.
In CA, OR, CO, wouldn't department of agriculture do all they could, for legal growers, since it is tax income??? Also, universities.
If you make money off it, would be in your best interest to have positive identification.
no. they are federally funded and its against federal law.
State agricultural extension offices receive federal funding so they can't test samples that they know are cannabis.
But there isn't much stopping someone from saying it's from a tomato plant if just sending stems and soil.
Personally I haven't done it cause I a) have an irrational fear of mailing anything and b) am lazy about it. Bad excuses, I know.
But there isn't much stopping someone from saying it's from a tomato plant if just sending stems and soil.
Personally I haven't done it cause I a) have an irrational fear of mailing anything and b) am lazy about it. Bad excuses, I know.
the extension service in oregon will work with hemp farmers as that is federally permitted, but they require your federal liscense to grow hemp in order to work with your samples.
they are not allowing mmj because there is no federal provision for the states programs and it is still considered against federal law.
they are not allowing mmj because there is no federal provision for the states programs and it is still considered against federal law.
I saw show about growing legally, and employee's must all be on book, pay all taxes, and anything else, regular businesses must adhere to. That is why I thought they would do all they could. Just heard on Conan (can not believe I have it on) they made 40 million taxing MMJ.
It was Sam's link in post 1425:
http://utahpests.usu.edu/IPM/htm/field-crops/insects-and-diseases/alfalfa-stem-nematode
This link says:
Alfalfa Stem Nematode (ASN) is a nearly microscopic round worm that enters the alfalfa plant and lives in the stems and leaves, usually above ground. Under ideal conditions (wet weather in late winter or early spring, at 59-70°F), ASN can complete its life cycle from egg to reproducing adult in 19-23 days. A single ASN female, after mating with a male, can produce 200-500 eggs during its reproductive life. ASN can parasitize and persist on a number of host plant species, but can only reproduce in alfalfa and sainfoin. ASN can undergo anhydrobiosis, a state of drying to near death, and persist in plant debris, on seeds, or in dry soil for a very long time.
Alfalfa stem nematode, Ditylenchus dipsaci, belongs to a diverse species of nematode often referred to as stem and bulb nematodes. Within this species are a number of races or strains of the nematode.
Alfalfa Stem Nematode ( Ditylenchus dipsaci) is one (strain?) that attacks and reproduces only on alfalfa (Medicago sativa) and sainfoin (Onobrychis viciifolia) plants.
The ASN occurs in all regions of alfalfa production worldwide and can dramatically reduce plant stand and forage yields. Several nematodes are known to parasitize alfalfa; however, ASN is the most serious nematode causing damage in alfalfa production."
Just so you know I'm not making this stuff up. If it's the case that Ditylenchus dipsaci can only reproduce in alfalfa and sainfoin , it's not a stretch to assume that people using alfalfa in their mixes (and there are many. Just Google it) are partly responsible for spreading it. It doesn't matter that you don't use alfalfa, as it can be passed from cuts or seeds from anyone down the line that used alfalfa, and also from soil or any kind of debris that contains the spores. I'm just putting this information together and making a logical (to me) hypothesis. Since no one is bothering to send in samples it's difficult to come to any certain conclusion. You should be seeing eggs in your plants with your scope if you believe they can reproduce in cannabis. Maybe you can send some samples in, as it is apparent the Storm Shadow is not going to. I do not see how dumping tons of different chemicals on them will prove anything. There were several treatments posted earlier that are known to work. These include:
Formaldehyde is routinely used in hot water treatment for the control of narcissus basal rot (caused by Fusarium oxysporum f. sp. narcissi) and stem and bulb eelworm (Ditylenchus dipsaci).
http://www.academia.edu/5689069/A_C...ospores_of_Fusarium_oxysporum_f._sp._narcissi
And:
Peracetic/peroxyacetic acid.
Link to PDF here:
http://www.ces.uoguelph.ca/water/PATHOGEN/PeroxyaceticAcid.pdf
Notice that it is used against Ditylenchus Dipsaci, or Alfalfa Stem Nematodes.
Now, you can ignore all that if you wish, or someone could test these two remedies on them to see what, if anything, happens, instead of posting links to anti-bacterials, and anti-fungals, which are not nematicides.
And we already know that they enter through stomata, not roots, although this may seem counter intuitive.These are the only nematodes that enter through the stomata and live in the cell walls of leaves and stems. Other nematodes live in the root zone, where they eat fungus gnats, root aphids, and other pests. In other words, they are beneficial.
Here's some links for those, including sale of them in Home Depot:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/LADIES-IN-RED-Beneficial-Nematodes-for-Organic-Pest-Control-361/100655849
I encourage you to read this on beneficial nematodes:
http://www.gardeninsects.com/beneficialNematodes.asp
http://www.groworganic.com/weed-pest-control/beneficial-insects/beneficial-nematodes.html
It's unfortunate that people read a couple of posts and come to conclusions without having all the facts as we know them, but that's the way it goes. We may not know all the facts about these very strange creatures, but we do know that there is a connection with alfalfa.
If possible, try to get pictures of eggs if you believe they reproduce in cannabis, as none of the literature supports this. You can do it with your scope. A single female lays between 200-500 eggs, so ought to be easy to find with the scope.
A L & L will accept them via Fed Ex And UPS. Give them a call.
From a poster at the Farm:
http://eurekamag.com/research/003/583/003583495.php
The effect of abamectin on garlic infected by Ditylenchus dipsaci
Ninety three percent of bulbs produced using the highest rate of abamectin were nematode free
Avid .... Love me some Avid.... These guys are sounding less threatening by the day
93% that's pretty legit
http://eurekamag.com/research/003/583/003583495.php
The effect of abamectin on garlic infected by Ditylenchus dipsaci
Ninety three percent of bulbs produced using the highest rate of abamectin were nematode free
Avid .... Love me some Avid.... These guys are sounding less threatening by the day
93% that's pretty legit
hydrogen peroxide may be a good option for control while sanitizing and for hydro gowers not using bennies fo a rot drench. seems to disrupt their life cycle. im thinking it will get in the way or their 1-3 lifestages that take place in the soil
Xeroton 3: Algaecide, Bactericide and Fungicide
hydrogen peroxide + peroxyacetic acid + octanoic acid
Synergistic effects when you combine Hydrogen Peroxide with the chemicals above...
Its so versatile
hydrogen peroxide + peroxyacetic acid + octanoic acid
Synergistic effects when you combine Hydrogen Peroxide with the chemicals above...
Its so versatile
It was Sam's link in post 1425:
http://utahpests.usu.edu/IPM/htm/field-crops/insects-and-diseases/alfalfa-stem-nematode
This link says:
Alfalfa Stem Nematode (ASN) is a nearly microscopic round worm that enters the alfalfa plant and lives in the stems and leaves, usually above ground. Under ideal conditions (wet weather in late winter or early spring, at 59-70°F), ASN can complete its life cycle from egg to reproducing adult in 19-23 days. A single ASN female, after mating with a male, can produce 200-500 eggs during its reproductive life. ASN can parasitize and persist on a number of host plant species, but can only reproduce in alfalfa and sainfoin. ASN can undergo anhydrobiosis, a state of drying to near death, and persist in plant debris, on seeds, or in dry soil for a very long time.
Alfalfa stem nematode, Ditylenchus dipsaci, belongs to a diverse species of nematode often referred to as stem and bulb nematodes. Within this species are a number of races or strains of the nematode.
Alfalfa Stem Nematode ( Ditylenchus dipsaci) is one (strain?) that attacks and reproduces only on alfalfa (Medicago sativa) and sainfoin (Onobrychis viciifolia) plants.
The ASN occurs in all regions of alfalfa production worldwide and can dramatically reduce plant stand and forage yields. Several nematodes are known to parasitize alfalfa; however, ASN is the most serious nematode causing damage in alfalfa production."
Just so you know I'm not making this stuff up. If it's the case that Ditylenchus dipsaci can only reproduce in alfalfa and sainfoin , it's not a stretch to assume that people using alfalfa in their mixes (and there are many. Just Google it) are partly responsible for spreading it. It doesn't matter that you don't use alfalfa, as it can be passed from cuts or seeds from anyone down the line that used alfalfa, and also from soil or any kind of debris that contains the spores. I'm just putting this information together and making a logical (to me) hypothesis. Since no one is bothering to send in samples it's difficult to come to any certain conclusion. You should be seeing eggs in your plants with your scope if you believe they can reproduce in cannabis. Maybe you can send some samples in, as it is apparent the Storm Shadow is not going to. I do not see how dumping tons of different chemicals on them will prove anything. There were several treatments posted earlier that are known to work. These include:
Formaldehyde is routinely used in hot water treatment for the control of narcissus basal rot (caused by Fusarium oxysporum f. sp. narcissi) and stem and bulb eelworm (Ditylenchus dipsaci).
http://www.academia.edu/5689069/A_C...ospores_of_Fusarium_oxysporum_f._sp._narcissi
And:
Peracetic/peroxyacetic acid.
Link to PDF here:
http://www.ces.uoguelph.ca/water/PATHOGEN/PeroxyaceticAcid.pdf
Notice that it is used against Ditylenchus Dipsaci, or Alfalfa Stem Nematodes.
Now, you can ignore all that if you wish, or someone could test these two remedies on them to see what, if anything, happens, instead of posting links to anti-bacterials, and anti-fungals, which are not nematicides.
And we already know that they enter through stomata, not roots, although this may seem counter intuitive.These are the only nematodes that enter through the stomata and live in the cell walls of leaves and stems. Other nematodes live in the root zone, where they eat fungus gnats, root aphids, and other pests. In other words, they are beneficial.
Here's some links for those, including sale of them in Home Depot:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/LADIES-IN-RED-Beneficial-Nematodes-for-Organic-Pest-Control-361/100655849
I encourage you to read this on beneficial nematodes:
http://www.gardeninsects.com/beneficialNematodes.asp
http://www.groworganic.com/weed-pest-control/beneficial-insects/beneficial-nematodes.html
It's unfortunate that people read a couple of posts and come to conclusions without having all the facts as we know them, but that's the way it goes. We may not know all the facts about these very strange creatures, but we do know that there is a connection with alfalfa.
If possible, try to get pictures of eggs if you believe they reproduce in cannabis, as none of the literature supports this. You can do it with your scope. A single female lays between 200-500 eggs, so ought to be easy to find with the scope.
Alfalfa Stem Nematode (ASN) may not reproduce in Cannabis but what about the other 20 races of Ditylenchus Dipsaci besides ASN?
That is what I was saying do likely reproduce in Cannabis. The eggs are small and do not wiggle so hard to see. A lab will answer this for us. Please someone send a sample with nematodes in to be ID and to tell if they Ditylenchus Dipsaci reproduce in Cannabis or not. I will bet they can, not ASN but one or more of the other 20 races of Ditylenchus Dipsaci.
If the lab can't tell the race of Ditylenchus Dipsaci have them send it to a nematode expert for the ID, they can send just the nematode that is legal every where and even federally funded labs can take them and ID them for the A L & L folks if they send them in.
-SamS
Lots of ambiguous information on these. They are not very well understood. The latest thing I could find on them is that there are two races:
"Ditylenchus dipsaci exhibits considerable variation with external factors, such as temperature, and it has several host races. Its chromosome number has been reported from a number of hosts and geographical origins and it varies from n = 6 to 30 (Sturhan and Brzeski, 1991). Not surprisingly, several species have been described with morphological characteristics that fall within the range of variation of D. dispaci. Some of these species are local variants of D. dipsaci and should be treated as synonyms of this species. Others, such as D. phloxidis, are unable to cross with D. dipsaci (Ladygina, 1974) and are considered to be valid species (Fortuner, 1982). Some authors lump all the morphologically indistinguishable species into a collective species, D. dipsaci (Sturhan and Brzeski, 1991). Summarizing several years of studies in Russia on the question (Barabashova, 1972, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979; Ladygina, 1974, 1976), Ladygina and Barabashova (1980) consider that two groups may be distinguished in the Ditylenchus dipsaci complex. The parasites of cultivated plants form a fairly homologous group as to morphology and chromosome number (n = 12) in all but the 'giant race', parasitic in Vicia faba var. equina, where n = 27. Most of the races in this first group cross-breed successfully. The second group, parasites of wild plants, forms a heterogeneous group both in karyotype (n = 18 to 28) and morphology. At least partial incompatibility is observed between races in the second group. The two groups are genetically incompatible.
To conclude, there seem to exist two or more valid species in the D. dipsaci complex, but they have not yet been validly or completely described and differentiated."
This is the latest I am able to find on them. This is well worth the read, with much information and pictures:
http://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/19287
This is by far the most complete and recent information I can find on them. It includes natural predators, and identifies the means of treating seeds, which I posted earlier:
" In the UK, the best results against the stem nematode in Narcissus were obtained when formaldehyde or peracetic acid (at 1.0 and 1.5%) were used in combination with thiabendazole (Hanks and Linfield, 1999)."
You will want to read this yourself as it is too lengthy to post, and not for those with short attention spans
But well worth the read.
Yes, people need to send in samples, but I don't know how to get them to do it. You can only ask so many times. If they were affecting me, I would send them in instead of playing the guessing game.
According to the PDF I posted earlier:
"Concentrated hydrogen peroxide should not be mixed with any pesticides or fertilizers, due to its nature
as a strong oxidizer (Fisher, 2011). Just sayin'.
.Lots of ambiguous information on these. They are not very well understood. The latest thing I could find on them is that there are two races:
"Ditylenchus dipsaci exhibits considerable variation with external factors, such as temperature, and it has several host races. Its chromosome number has been reported from a number of hosts and geographical origins and it varies from n = 6 to 30 (Sturhan and Brzeski, 1991). Not surprisingly, several species have been described with morphological characteristics that fall within the range of variation of D. dispaci. Some of these species are local variants of D. dipsaci and should be treated as synonyms of this species. Others, such as D. phloxidis, are unable to cross with D. dipsaci (Ladygina, 1974) and are considered to be valid species (Fortuner, 1982). Some authors lump all the morphologically indistinguishable species into a collective species, D. dipsaci (Sturhan and Brzeski, 1991). Summarizing several years of studies in Russia on the question (Barabashova, 1972, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979; Ladygina, 1974, 1976), Ladygina and Barabashova (1980) consider that two groups may be distinguished in the Ditylenchus dipsaci complex. The parasites of cultivated plants form a fairly homologous group as to morphology and chromosome number (n = 12) in all but the 'giant race', parasitic in Vicia faba var. equina, where n = 27. Most of the races in this first group cross-breed successfully. The second group, parasites of wild plants, forms a heterogeneous group both in karyotype (n = 18 to 28) and morphology. At least partial incompatibility is observed between races in the second group. The two groups are genetically incompatible.
To conclude, there seem to exist two or more valid species in the D. dipsaci complex, but they have not yet been validly or completely described and differentiated."
This is the latest I am able to find on them. This is well worth the read, with much information and pictures:
http://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/19287
I agree that the link is good info, that is why I posted it 3 times in this thread so far.
-SamS
This is by far the most complete and recent information I can find on them. It includes natural predators, and identifies the means of treating seeds, which I posted earlier:
" In the UK, the best results against the stem nematode in Narcissus were obtained when formaldehyde or peracetic acid (at 1.0 and 1.5%) were used in combination with thiabendazole (Hanks and Linfield, 1999)."
You will want to read this yourself as it is too lengthy to post, and not for those with short attention spans
But well worth the read.
Yes, people need to send in samples, but I don't know how to get them to do it. You can only ask so many times. If they were affecting me, I would send them in instead of playing the guessing game.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10526-013-9511-5#page-1
Progress in the commercialisation of bionematicides
Bacillus Firmus
"paralysis and mortality of larval and adult nematodes include Ditylenchus dipsaci"
Progress in the commercialisation of bionematicides
Bacillus Firmus
"paralysis and mortality of larval and adult nematodes include Ditylenchus dipsaci"
RetroGrow:
From your own link:
And this:
The product Storm Shadow mentioned is an excellent disinfectant. That brand is expensive, but excellent. One of its notable qualities is its effectiveness against cryptobiotic anthrax. It is a mixture of three oxidative compounds that decompose into non-toxic residues like vinegar. So it is highly effective, and very safe.
From your own link:
And this:
The product Storm Shadow mentioned is an excellent disinfectant. That brand is expensive, but excellent. One of its notable qualities is its effectiveness against cryptobiotic anthrax. It is a mixture of three oxidative compounds that decompose into non-toxic residues like vinegar. So it is highly effective, and very safe.
Hey Storm, you mentioned that while you were fighting BMs with kontos avid pylon etc. that the dudding wasn't as widespread. Were you spraying them as a foliar or soil drenching them?
I have a buddy with a big garden that gets duds and I'm pretty sure his plants are infected with nematodes (i'm gonna scope em in the next couple days.) No trays or anything for drainage, just bucket vacuuming. Almost no sanitation practices. And yet only 10-20% of his plants end up dudding... most get really vigorous and grow well once in the flower rooms.
He uses Avid @ 3-4ml (ridiculous, i know) foliar while I don't use any miticides since I haven't had a mite in a looooooong time. So I'm wondering if foliar miticides are suppressing the nematodes.
I have a buddy with a big garden that gets duds and I'm pretty sure his plants are infected with nematodes (i'm gonna scope em in the next couple days.) No trays or anything for drainage, just bucket vacuuming. Almost no sanitation practices. And yet only 10-20% of his plants end up dudding... most get really vigorous and grow well once in the flower rooms.
He uses Avid @ 3-4ml (ridiculous, i know) foliar while I don't use any miticides since I haven't had a mite in a looooooong time. So I'm wondering if foliar miticides are suppressing the nematodes.
I've seen a room full of duds that were sprayed regularly with avid and forbid several times in veg.
- Status
