Chelates for trace minerals?

[Scrappy4]

Luther, I believe in living organic soil. Your saying malarkey? I don't get your most holy comment either. I grow this way, and will continue. If I find a better way to grow better medicine I'll reconsider but as of yet it's living organic soil for me, and believe me I've been around the organic block. It will take evidence for me to change, do you have any?

If you go back to the overgrow days I/we/us learned a great deal and by now we have a good amount of accumulated data, some anecdotal some factual on all kinds of cannabis growing. And by now we see fads, and just plain junk survive and thrive. It's up to us to separate the wheat from the shaff. It seems my wheat is your shaff.

As far as the book mentioned and hawked in this thread, like I said time will tell. But do read all the reviews to it, especially reviews from those you respect not just yes men. For now I'll remain off the bandwagon and will stand by my comments.

 

[Scrappy4]

Not coming into your threads and saying this...but since you came here lets chat about plant teas...say comfrey. When you chuck it in water tou end up getting water soluble ions...since water is your solvent. The water soluble ions are the ones that are most mobile in the plant...K and N. A comfrey tea ain't much different than KNO3...that is the actual chemistry so please take your holier than thou stff back to the LOS thread where chemistry does not seem to apply. I will stay out of that thread...promise

Please understand comfrey is not just NPK. Take time to find the whole story of comfrey or alfalfa, or kelp. There's tons of info out there, just look. But once again, there are literally hundreds of other beneficial compounds that seemed to have slipped by you, or somehow too scientific (what I assume you meant by holy) for you?

Does KNO3 have any beneficial compounds? Sounds like a radio station to me, lol.

You will find, ussually after much study and trial and error, that gardeners from the 1800's were as right now, as they were then.

We complicate things too much. Healthy plants still like homemade compost, worm poop, and botanical inputs still bring more to the table.

My plants do fine without soluble nutrients or chelates other than what nature provides. Of course feel free to differ.

 

[milkyjoe]

Please understand those compounds are not water soluble...they are non polar soluble. Y'all are kidding yourself. As soil amendments you are right...as teas I just gotta laugh

Edit...and that radio station thing did make me laugh...that was good

 

[Luther Burbank]

Scrappy, we both grow in similar medium most likely, if we're both still going off Coot's old mixes. I'm not in a different boat than you; I just don't call it "living organic soil", because it's just an unnecessary tagline. It's not the soil that's malarky; it's the people who tow the "living organic soil" line without understanding it saying things that make no sense - as my comment before was originally directed at - the idea that "living organic soil" somehow doesn't need or can't benefit from trace amending.

"You will find, usually after much study and trial and error, that gardeners from the 1800's were as right now, as they were then." - This is just appealing to a romanticized past that never really existed. It's a smaller story in a larger narrative of "everyone these days has it wrong except my school of thought".

This thread is getting well and derailed however. I'm gonna shut my trap.

 

[m_astera]

LOS

LOS

LOS malarkey ? Please explain.

Educated poster? Or huckster selling books? Time will tell, but this thread is starting to smell.

I am new here and don't know what LOS means. Please inform me.

As to educated, what does that mean? A few posts back I gave my best guess at ideal mineral balance, the result of fourteen years of real experience. What you got?

 

[m_astera]

I'll tell y'all this: I had better be right. There is a lot riding on that, from the Philippines to South Africa. Fifteen from South Africa today.

 

[Scrappy4]

I am new here and don't know what LOS means. Please inform me.

As to educated, what does that mean? A few posts back I gave my best guess at ideal mineral balance, the result of fourteen years of real experience. What you got?

LOS is living organic soil. I prefer recycled living organic soil myself. Because that more accurately describes my grow style.

Educated post? I was answering to another poster and questioning your book and the general puzzling notion of pushing your book on a cannabis forum. Why not an add in acres magazine? Like I mentioned I read the reviews and urge others to do the same, since I've not actually read the book, I'll withhold my own reviews.

 

[m_astera]

Also please note: I am not looking for work, I have too much. You can figure the rest out yourselves .I gave you the clues.

 

[Stayfoolish]

Is your book available for digital download anywhere? I could PayPal you for a pdf. I can't find it anywhere and I want to use the info from this thread and the intelligent gardener for my new batch of soil.

 

[Pangea]

http://www.soilminerals.com/Ideal_Soil_Main_Page.htm

 

[Dkgrower]

I really have a big issue with pepol comming acting like they know shit and at the same time they are pushing books - fertilizers- seeds.

So to come hard on you Asta but if you are such a grand man pls go about your bizz with some real intentions on informing pepol on your motivations..

Also anybody that comes with definitive answers are pepol that rewrite science books or are influenced by one person and think that his ideas are right !

I will remind pepol that there often are many ideas on the same topic and typically a concensus is formed but following single persons ideas are really dangerous and even more when you inform pepol with littel back ground info on those type of premis...

Sry for my english its not native to me..

 

[Stayfoolish]

I'd rather people pushing new ideas or information I haven't seen as opposed to not talking. Too much Hate. If it's not books it's ballasts or fans. The world changes sometimes.

 

[Cep]

I really have a big issue with emotional reasoning. If you want to whine about something at least know a little about the subject or the person you're trying to discredit.

Science textbooks are rewritten often because of new findings. Albrecht ratios grow healthy plants. This is well documented and the findings can be reproduced. Are there other ways to grow plants? Of course. Go about using whatever method you like.

Mr. Astera never plugged his book btw.

I've got questions about chelates:

Does anyone know what happens to EDTA inside the plant? Where is it accumulating?

A bunch of us are using Albion products that use Glycine as the chelation agent. I wonder if a sudden influx of one amino acid is upsetting to the plant like an unbalanced diet.

 

[Dreambig]

I appreciate you mr. Astera. Please excuse the haters on here.

Here's the soil analysis from about 2 weeks ago. I'm still low in micronutrients, potassium, and magnesium. So I've been spraying cytoplus which has the 7 micros and potassium, along with some Epsom salt and sea crop.

I've got a question; about how much nitrogen is good for a balanced soil? Also what's the ideal p2o5 -phosphorus level? My plants are in the transition phase and stretching like crazy right now.

 

[m_astera]

I appreciate you mr. Astera. Please excuse the haters on here.

Here's the soil analysis from about 2 weeks ago. I'm still low in micronutrients, potassium, and magnesium. So I've been spraying cytoplus which has the 7 micros and potassium, along with some Epsom salt and sea crop.

I've got a question; about how much nitrogen is good for a balanced soil? Also what's the ideal p2o5 -phosphorus level? My plants are in the transition phase and stretching like crazy right now.

Hi Dreambig- I'm used to the antipathy. Funny it is the same from industrial/chemical growers and organic growers. Facts don't matter or what? FWIW, I have been an organic grower since the 1970s and am a partner in a certified organic farm in Louisiana, USA. I've also been writing soil Rx's for organic growers for ten years. I must be doing something right.

Re your soil report: This is a perfect setup for KMag, aka SulPoMag. Add 50 lbs per 1000 sq feet, and stand back!

The soil is very low in Copper and Manganese, so 1 lb of Copper sulfate 25%Cu and 3 lbs of Manganese sulfate 32%Mn would be good, along with 2 lbs of sea salt. Again, per 1000 square feet. The sulfates will do a lot.

I try to stay away from N recommendations, because the grower can usually tell better than me when N is needed. With your high organic matter you might not need any N to grow a good crop, but adding the equivalent of 100 lbs/acre is a general guideline.

 

[m_astera]

I really have a big issue with pepol comming acting like they know shit and at the same time they are pushing books - fertilizers- seeds.

So to come hard on you Asta but if you are such a grand man pls go about your bizz with some real intentions on informing pepol on your motivations..

Also anybody that comes with definitive answers are pepol that rewrite science books or are influenced by one person and think that his ideas are right !

I will remind pepol that there often are many ideas on the same topic and typically a concensus is formed but following single persons ideas are really dangerous and even more when you inform pepol with littel back ground info on those type of premis...

Sry for my english its not native to me..

DK grower-
What exactly do you have a problem with? The ratios I posted? Fine, go figure out your own ratios. Expect to spend 15 years and much money out of pocket on lab fees. I don't say what I posted is the final answer, only what has worked. If you can do better, the world may thank you.

 

[Madjag]

I really have a big issue with pepol comming acting like they know shit and at the same time they are pushing books - fertilizers- seeds.

Intelligent conversation is usually a fascinating mix of people who have different viewpoints. We don't want to hold back new ideas now do we?

There truly is a big difference between acting like you know shit and actually knowing shit.

Do you know how to tell the difference? You keep an open mind, evaluate other ICmag members' responses, read, read, read, and test out some of the suggestions in your own garden.

Testing ideas for yourself will be the final proof, and you won't have to feel like someone is being an expert when they are not and when you discover a true expert you will be able to tell by yourself.

Years and years of growing weed means that you know how to grow, that's all. It doesn't mean that you know how you are doing it. You might whisper good prayers and think that that was the secret of your success, of why you were doing so well. Or you might think it was the amount of water you used. You might even think that it was all due to your fertilizer mix which you had used for 20 years without problems.

But then there's science, too. Soil tests, comparison garden rows, different soil mixes, different light conditions, and so much more.
Practical experience gets even better with science.

Your English is good, dude. I cannot speak any of your language so you are way ahead of my abilities there.

Peace,
Madjag

 

[milkyjoe]

Michael...a couple more comment/questions if you don't mind. I really like how you tie micros to cec. You don't see anyone else do that and it only makes sense because the cations are actually base cations just like the major minerals.

Would you mind sharing the thought process/experimental process that led you to your suggestions for micros?

And the same for anions...of course they have to be tied to cations cause that is what deterimines pH...but so many just pick a set number and say that's all you need.

They tell us pH of 6.4 but their method sure as fuck will not yield that with a highish cec soil.

Secondly...is it true weeds have completely different nutritional requirements than crops? And if it is, is there any chance what we are growing is at least partly a weed?

I had a soil that had 4% K, a lot of organic matter and I don't know how much N. Anyways it did not take long at all to look like it had both N and K deficiencies. Pale green leaves with some burnt edges on the lower leaves. I fed it KNO3 and overnight, bam, good to go.

In retrospect I wish I would have gone AS first and then some K. So I don't really know what the root cause was. But if you have grown this plant ever do you get the feeling 6-7% might be a better number for K and what would you replace?

Guess I oughta design an experiment and find out for myownself.

I will take a pic tonight...the old leaves still show the problem

 

[Pangea]

milky fwiw, I'm running a 4% K and it is the first to tap out. I'm going to be bumping it up to those levels for my next batches. I also have been seeing some minor Mg issues, and will be bumping that a couple points more towards the high end of 20%, my Ca:Mg ratio is 9.3:1.

 

[milkyjoe]

K2so4, especially the hydro grade that easily dissolves will get you through on the k