Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[slowandeasy]

Depending on stage of life, RAs can be very small. You will not see them with the naked eye. I use magnifying goggles and a bright LED flashlight to see them. You can use a loupe if you don't have the goggles. You sometimes have to stare at on spot for a minute or two before you will see one move. They are tricky little bastards, but if they are there, you will see them with magnification and patience.

I am hoping that it was adding the extra light. It did get pretty hot in there, and it is double the light I had before. Where did you get your goggles? I want to be sure, as I did open a new bag of Coco around the same time. Never had a problem like this before...but I will figure it out.

 

[slowandeasy]

I just busted out my microscope and LED light. I looked at 2 plants, in multiple spots on the roots and saw nothing moving at all. I spent a good 20 min looking...so I think I am okay. I will keep checking everyday tho, just incase. This all started when I added a light and upgraded to Ushio Bulbs. 4x8 Tent with 2 Sun Spot Reflectors air-cooled and 2 600 watt lights. I added more Magi-cal to see if they are needing more, but I have never had a problem in the past like this...but I assume light intensity/heat stress could mimick RA problems?

 

[ballplayer 2]

Just to note, I was infected with BOTH the "micros" and "red asses". I was also blessed with presence of a few fliers. I assumed the red asses maybe the mature stage of the micros. I would imagine the micros would be more difficult to get rid of because of their very small size, though it would be nice if they were more susceptible to treatments**crosses fingers. I really do believe mine came from either FFOF or a vermicompost product by the name of purple cow. I actually am fairly certain it was the Purple Cow as I saw white crawlies in it when doing some transplants, figured they were springtails (who I enjoy being in my garden). Though I could hardly say for certain. The damn things could have come from the hydro store, during shipment, or during storage on my part.

Also my neighbor grows nystertiums all around her outdoor garden, she believes they will keep bad bugs away. Perhaps the idea of keeping those plants as hosts so they leave her veggie garden alone. They may have stopped off for a snack on their way, turning into a fuggin smorgasbord.

I also noticed the orbs on a couple of my middle-upper fan leaves. That was before I stumbled upon this thread. I simply thought I had my light too close and the leaves were sweating as an immune response from the heat. Unfortunately I did not further investigate this phenomena, because I noticed a large population of the micros and red asses on the rim of my containers. I thought for sure they were different life stages of redspider mites. The plant,and the one next to it, were immediately removed from the room. I did touch the liquid with my hand and it seemed like water to me, perhaps a bit more "sticky?" Though in all honesty did not give it much thought. It was clearly visible to my naked eye on the top of the leaf. I did not think to look on the bottom sides, like I said thought it was heat. This was by far my worst infested plant.

Besides treating plants, have folks developed a proper cleaning procedure for affected spaces? (I thought I read about steaming,vacuuming, bleaching, and spraying surfaces woth Physan 20). I would be interested in what had worked best for people who have eliminated them.

It is bothersome since I had the micros, and even the red asses can be difficult to see. Especially since my entire room is white, micros impossible, red asses difficult. The only saving grace for me is that my pots are black and they were easily seen moving around the outside rim of the container. I shudder to think about the soil surface, and deeper down.

Also, folks are absolutley right on about the behavior of the winged root aphid being radically different from that of a fungus gnat. They often run away very quickly and adeptly before deciding to fly. They will hide. they fly stronger. I did not notice as much before I read this thread (I figured I had mites and fungus gnats). However, after reading this thread and recalling my experience killing the fliers--there is no doubt I was dealing with winged aphids, noting their agile, sneaky, "aware", determined flight.

 

[overgrowit]

slowandeasy, i thought i didnt have them anymore but was still getting shitty yields, plants would yellow after stretch. Turns out I never got rid of them they are just really really hard to see.

The micro ones that i have move real fast and seem to understand that they have to get out of sight so they crawl deeper as soon as the soil is moved. I have a Zorb usb scope with led but havnt been able to see one with it yet, I am only able to see them in the right light when the soil is still damp and dark colored.
I have to look real hard for a long time in several spots and plants in order to see them, but i know they are there because of how the plants look great right up until after they are done stretching and then go to shit. My plants never did this before RA's

After trying Merit 75(high concentration Imid), spectracide, bayer complete, sn203, for months on plants of all ages and sizes the bastards wont die. The plants had functioning root systems and were drinking.

I am now about to try Botanigard and then Orthene(acephate). Anyone know the proper dosage for either of these?
When i opened the orthene container it instantly filled the room with a horrible rotten smell so Im not so sure about using this shit indoors. Maybe i can mix it up outside because this is some toxic shit.

I just want these fuckers gone, I am really starting to hate life. Growing is everything to me and it is hardly enjoyable at all anymore.

 

[F. Dupp]

slowandeasy, i thought i didnt have them anymore but was still getting shitty yields, plants would yellow after stretch. Turns out I never got rid of them they are just really really hard to see.

The micro ones that i have move real fast and seem to understand that they have to get out of sight so they crawl deeper as soon as the soil is moved. I have a Zorb usb scope with led but havnt been able to see one with it yet, I am only able to see them in the right light when the soil is still damp and dark colored.
I have to look real hard for a long time in several spots and plants in order to see them, but i know they are there because of how the plants look great right up until after they are done stretching and then go to shit. My plants never did this before RA's

After trying Merit 75(high concentration Imid), spectracide, bayer complete, sn203, for months on plants of all ages and sizes the bastards wont die. The plants had functioning root systems and were drinking.

I am now about to try Botanigard and then Orthene(acephate). Anyone know the proper dosage for either of these?
When i opened the orthene container it instantly filled the room with a horrible rotten smell so Im not so sure about using this shit indoors. Maybe i can mix it up outside because this is some toxic shit.

I just want these fuckers gone, I am really starting to hate life. Growing is everything to me and it is hardly enjoyable at all anymore.

Try Evergreen 60-6. I started using it about 2 weeks ago and havent seen an RA since. I also had the micros. Imid, Botanigard, and Spectracide didnt kill them.

I havent seen an RA since about half an hour after I started using the Evergreen. Its been about 2 weeks now. NO RA'S.

 

[F. Dupp]

Evergreen Crop Protection EC60-6

You can find it here- http://www.groworganic.com/evergreen-crop-protection-ec60-6-quart.html

 

[slowandeasy]

Try Evergreen 60-6. I started using it about 2 weeks ago and havent seen an RA since. I also had the micros. Imid, Botanigard, and Spectracide didnt kill them.

I havent seen an RA since about half an hour after I started using the Evergreen. Its been about 2 weeks now. NO RA'S.

I just saw a clear bug running on the top of my Coco. Not happy about this. I am going to order some of that Evergreen right now!

 

[max_well]

evergreen use

evergreen use

Hey F. Dupp
good to hear some positive news about Evergreen 60-6-- I see you used a rate of 2 mL/gal. What medium are you in? did you add it to a reservoir and leave it in, or just do a one-time application?
thanks for your info and good luck

 

[F. Dupp]

Hey F. Dupp
good to hear some positive news about Evergreen 60-6-- I see you used a rate of 2 mL/gal. What medium are you in? did you add it to a reservoir and leave it in, or just do a one-time application?
thanks for your info and good luck

I dont use any medium. My roots hang freely from netpots in a low pressure aeroponic system.

With Evergreen you can just leave it in the rez up until harvest day, so it is constantly in there killing anything that hatches, crawls, or flies in.

 

[zor]

Try Evergreen 60-6. I started using it about 2 weeks ago and havent seen an RA since. I also had the micros. Imid, Botanigard, and Spectracide didnt kill them.

I havent seen an RA since about half an hour after I started using the Evergreen. Its been about 2 weeks now. NO RA'S.

dupp, have your plants returned to vigor as well after the evergreen treatment?

 

[F. Dupp]

dupp, have your plants returned to vigor as well after the evergreen treatment?

My plants in flower dont seem to be recovering, they were too damaged from the RA's AND the other pesticides. Most of the plants in veg have new growth and new white roots, but I run perpetual so Im on a timeline, and they are out of time as I have clones that need to take their place, so I will be taking clones off of them and scrapping them as they are not where they need to be at this point.

I have been running my aero system for 2 years now after running soil for about 6 years. Soil is messy, expensive, and a pain in the ass to dispose of, but aero systems are disease vectors. If one plant is sick, every plant in the machine gets sick. Soil, coco, rockwool, etc. act as a buffer of sorts, and I have no buffer. When things are running good I have stunning plants, higher yields, and faster growth and finishing times. And 95% of the time things are running good. But when things are bad, (high rez temps, RA's, Brown Algae) I AM FUCKED. Some days it makes me feel like a noob.

I have learned two definite NO-NO's while trying to eradicate RA's that I should probably pass on.
1. DO NOT run Botanigard thru a recirculating rez. It turned my nute solution (GH lucas) into brown snot.
2. DO NOT mix Bayer Complete into a rez, or anything else that contains H2o2. It turns into Elmers fucking glue.

 

[Critter]

Now im on the fence as to whether GreenLight which has the same chems as evergreen just in a much lower ratio. Ive already spent hundreds fighting these bitches so im hesitent to go with the evergreen at 100 bucks when greenlight may work just at a higher dosing than evergreen . What cha think Dupp? This is for dwc im treating my coco and soil with imid and botanigard. Will this evergreen or greenlight work in soil and coco too? any one have any experience with em?

 

[max_well]

I have learned two definite NO-NO's while trying to eradicate RA's that I should probably pass on.
1. DO NOT run Botanigard thru a recirculating rez. It turned my nute solution (GH lucas) into brown snot.
2. DO NOT mix Bayer Complete into a rez, or anything else that contains H2o2. It turns into Elmers fucking glue.

thanks for all your info. I agree that some insecticides can cause damage / photo sensitivity... but it's hard to be very specific in quantifying damage source when RA presence is high and multiple treatments are being used.
For hydroponics, I'm curious if trying to maintain reservoir sterility is a good idea (via H202 or a product like Dutch Masters Zone), as it's suggested that secondary bacterial and fungal pathogens is what causes the damage, and that the RA munching allows leaves the plant vulnerable to these. Do you have experience with mixing H2O2 and the Evergreen? Also, I read in in some of the literature that it is important to keep the Evergreen agitated when tank-mixed, so probably a recirculating pump in the rez is a good idea to keep it uniformly dispersed .
keep on fighting and good luck

 

[F. Dupp]

Now im on the fence as to whether GreenLight which has the same chems as evergreen just in a much lower ratio. Ive already spent hundreds fighting these bitches so im hesitent to go with the evergreen at 100 bucks when greenlight may work just at a higher dosing than evergreen . What cha think Dupp? This is for dwc im treating my coco and soil with imid and botanigard. Will this evergreen or greenlight work in soil and coco too? any one have any experience with em?

I dont know if Evergreen will work in soil or coco, but I have yet to read anything about Evergreen not working for someone. Im not about to make anyone any promises though. There are too many variables in all of this: type of RA's, growing method, strains, nutes, etc.

ExciteR is virtually the same product as Evergreen but is sold in smaller quantities. You might want to give it a try-
http://compare.ebay.com/like/150586899790?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

 

[F. Dupp]

thanks for all your info. I agree that some insecticides can cause damage / photo sensitivity... but it's hard to be very specific in quantifying damage source when RA presence is high and multiple treatments are being used.
For hydroponics, I'm curious if trying to maintain reservoir sterility is a good idea (via H202 or a product like Dutch Masters Zone), as it's suggested that secondary bacterial and fungal pathogens is what causes the damage, and that the RA munching allows leaves the plant vulnerable to these. Do you have experience with mixing H2O2 and the Evergreen? Also, I read in in some of the literature that it is important to keep the Evergreen agitated when tank-mixed, so probably a recirculating pump in the rez is a good idea to keep it uniformly dispersed .
keep on fighting and good luck

I have tried mixing many different things, all of which I cant remember. I tried bennies (EWC tea, Great White, Roots Excelurator) and sterilization (bleach, H2o2) enzymes (Hygrozyme, which gave me Brown Algae on top of it all). All failed. When the aphids are present nothing seems to help much, and blindly mixing all these different things and throwing them at my plants did its own damage. My only advice is to do whatever it takes to kill the RA's first and foremost, then go back to what you know works. The Evergreen appears to have killed them for me so far, so Im comfortable going back to my old regimine. I always have the possibility of reinfection, as I have no idea how I got them in the first goddam place.

 

[slowandeasy]

What kind of Bombs are you guys using? I want to bomb my room, clean, and treat this weekend. Thanks!@@

 

[F. Dupp]

What kind of Bombs are you guys using? I want to bomb my room, clean, and treat this weekend. Thanks!@@

Nuclear.

Pyrethrin bombs were seemingly worthless.

 

[RetroGrow]

I also noticed the orbs on a couple of my middle-upper fan leaves. That was before I stumbled upon this thread. I simply thought I had my light too close and the leaves were sweating as an immune response from the heat. Unfortunately I did not further investigate this phenomena, because I noticed a large population of the micros and red asses on the rim of my containers. I thought for sure they were different life stages of redspider mites. The plant,and the one next to it, were immediately removed from the room. I did touch the liquid with my hand and it seemed like water to me, perhaps a bit more "sticky?" Though in all honesty did not give it much thought. It was clearly visible to my naked eye on the top of the leaf.

The liquid you are seeing is the "honey" given off by RAs. Outdoors, they have a symbiotic relationship with ants. Ants love the "honey", and will follow the RAs around to get it. In turn, the ants protect the eggs of the RAs. Only some species lay eggs. Others bear live young, and are basically born pregnant, which explains why they reproduce so rapidly. In nature, the ants will carry off the eggs and protect them over the winter, so that when spring comes and they hatch, the ants will have a food supply. This helps to identify the species of RAs that you have. Google it if you want to learn more. Corn aphids are one type that do this. They are found wherever corn grows.
RAs are spread in soil. That is why when you buy soil, you must sterilize it to prevent infestation. Soil must be heated in the oven to kill them. One of the reasons I don't use soil. RAs do not come in coco. It's just not where they live.
Another important thing to consider about RAs is that they are disease vectors. They transmit viruses. That is why many people treat for RAs, but report that it didn't work, and their plants are still dying. The plants have caught a virus and it's impossible to get rid of. The entire grow room/house has to be abandoned in this case. This happened to me. Once you have viruses in your house, the only solution is to move and start over. All your equipment must either be destroyed or sterilized with high temperatures for a period of hours. Just as your body fights viruses with fever, high temperatures are the only thing that will "kill" them, although some believe that viruses are not technically alive, but that is another subject.
The notion that imid or botaniguard kill plants simply is not true. They were made to treat plants. This can be easily demonstrated by taking any healthy houseplant or vegetable, applying the proper dosage, and watching. You will see no ill effects on healthy plants. User error is the cause of problems in many cases, especially hydro/recirculating systems. In these type systems, chems should not be dumped in the res and circulated through the system. Pumps must be turned off, and each plant must be treated in the solution of imid/botaniguard/etc. for a period of hours. This is per Ed Rosenthal..
"If the plants are growing in a hydroponic system, rather than mixing the treatment in the reservoir, make a special batch of water. Turn off the hydroponic system and water the plants using a watering can. Let the insecticide water stay in the root area for at least an hour before turning the hydroponic unit back on."
http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/articles/2967.html

 

[ballplayer 2]

F. Dupp please continue to post your progress warding off the micro version. The micro version has also infected my plants. I also had what I believe to be a red version as well. The red bugs around the rims of my pots (along with the micro bots) were either root aphids, or the beneficial hypoapsis miles. I am thinking they were root aphids because that plant quit drinking on me--and from dealing with aphids outdoors on my veggies, they seemed to move and have a ovalish body like aphids. Lastly, do you believe any high (5-6%) pyrethrin concentrate would be potentially be effective? Or is there something about evergreen specifically? Only reason I am asking is because I cannot get evergreen locally, but may have access to other brand high strength pyrethrin. I am not asking you to guarantee evergreen to work, as I know you cannot do that with every situation being different. Just about high strength pyrethrins in general. As I have certainly noted your potential success against the "micros."

I did not bother to attempt to fight these bastards I scrapped, honestly, because they scared the shit out of me. I have never fought anything more than fungus gnats. I did not want to let the damn things get going, so I pitched seemingly less affected plants just as well as infested ones ( 2 out of 8).

I decided to try to better inform myself about my potential opponent and start over, treating preemptively. So far I have armed myself with Bayer Fruit and Citrus, Spectracide, Botanigard es (this is available locally), Azamax (because I thought I had mites), Bud Factor X (to hopefully improve plant immune system, and Great White (to rebuild beneficials after pest control measures). I will also likely exclude FFOF and Purple Cow (vermicompost) from my next cycle to see if that makes any difference.

Here is what I was thinking I would do to try and prevent reinfestation. Apply Bayer Fruit and Citrus beginning week 2 from seed. Apply Botanigard 2 weeks later. Reapply Bayer Fruit and Citrus right before flip to 12/12. Possibly rotate weekly applications of Botanigard and Evergreen (or other similar high strength pyrethrin) until week 5-6 flower on a 9 week finisher. I will innoculate with Great White weekly or bi-weekly. Apply Bud Factor X weekly throughout grow starting in week 2-3 veg. I will be making sure my humidity stays under 45% by adding a dehumidifier to my lung room. Anyone have anything I should add to my regimen? This will all be done whether I see a root aphid or not.

Thank you for your time and assistance.

BP

 

[Guest 88950]

Ballplayer, add DE.

Diatamaceous Earth -- layer ate the bottom after a little coco, layer on top covering coco and alot mixed in my coco...........keeps bugs away and safe to use anytime.