The action of CBD vs. THC in cancer treatment

[Nickog]

I am looking for a not-too-completed explanation of the roles of CBD and THC in treating cancer with oil. I have noticed people selling CBD oil made from hemp plants and shipping it world wide. People are making claims that all you need is the CBD's.
Does anyone have a good explanation or a link as to why all the components of the plant are necessary, and is the CBD only oil just a marketing joke?
Feel free to expand on the other cannabinoids if you choose.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I am looking for a not-too-completed explanation of the roles of CBD and THC in treating cancer with oil. I have noticed people selling CBD oil made from hemp plants and shipping it world wide. People are making claims that all you need is the CBD's.
Does anyone have a good explanation or a link as to why all the components of the plant are necessary, and is the CBD only oil just a marketing joke?
Feel free to expand on the other cannabinoids if you choose.

Dr Melamede's research suggests that what is required, is flooding the endo-cannabinoid receptors with phyto-cannabinoids so that all the receptors are all filled. Once they are filled, more does nothing.

We know that THC has an affinity for the CB-1 receptors in our brains, while CBD has an affinity for our immune systems CB-2 receptors throughout our bodies.

Interestingly, Dr Melamede told me that three or four percent CBD, with the balance THC and other terpenes/cannabinoids, was most effective in their trials.

We grow Cannatonic, Maui Bubble Gift, Harlaquin, and Charlottes Web as high CBD strains to get high dosage patients started building tolerance, because the high CBD helps mollify the psychoactive effects of the THC on the CB-1 receptors, so that they are less prone to anxiety attacks or discombobulation.

Dr Melamede said that they used Citicoline at 3X the oil dose, to ameliorate the THC effects, and on our list to try.

At any rate, it is appalling to me to see some of the prices attached to CBD oil, when it costs cents per gram to extract and can be extracted from hemp.

I salute making legal high CBD oil available to folks in need, but some of the usury prices are an example of opportunists grabbing low hanging fruit from desperate end of life brothers and sisters.

 

[jackgastche]

Dr Melamede said that they used Citicoline at 3X the oil dose, to ameliorate the THC effects, and on our list to try.
.

In what sense are the effects of THC claimed to be ameliorated? I have been supplementing citicoline cycled on/off with phosphatidylcholine for years and on their own they are rather underwhelming in any effects they produce. They do make a rather profound difference when coupled with proper racetams however.

 

[jd2]

I am looking for a not-too-completed explanation of the roles of CBD and THC in treating cancer with oil. I have noticed people selling CBD oil made from hemp plants and shipping it world wide. People are making claims that all you need is the CBD's.
Does anyone have a good explanation or a link as to why all the components of the plant are necessary, and is the CBD only oil just a marketing joke?
Feel free to expand on the other cannabinoids if you choose.

Joke --- could be.

I had some product from a national company tested. Less than .3% by weight for cbd.

I paid approx 34 dollars for one FL Oz. I was curious about the magic in the Amber bottle.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Dr Melamede's research suggests that what is required, is flooding the endo-cannabinoid receptors with phyto-cannabinoids so that all the receptors are all filled. Once they are filled, more does nothing.

Which phyto-Cannabinoids flood which receptors? Do you know? I would love to hear which Cannabinoids he believes bind to which receptors. Does that include the acid forms of all the Cannabinoids binding to receptors?

We know that THC has an affinity for the CB-1 receptors in our brains, while CBD has an affinity for our immune systems CB-2 receptors throughout our bodies.

Not correct, CBD has very very low affinity with the CB2 receptor and almost none with the CB1. CBD does modulate the receptors but does not bind much at all. THC does bind to CB1. Ask him if the CBD and other Cannabinoids were oral or smoked?

Interestingly, Dr Melamede told me that three or four percent CBD, with the balance THC and other terpenes/cannabinoids, was most effective in their trials.

To what percent THC? What other Cannabinoids? Do the different 140 terpenes make any differences? Which ones does he think are most important with CBD? Is this for oral or smoked? I did not know if terpenes moderated the THC or CBD effects if taken orally. I never tested it. The right terpenes with THC can make a big difference.

We grow Cannatonic, Maui Bubble Gift, Harlaquin, and Charlottes Web as high CBD strains to get high dosage patients started building tolerance, because the high CBD helps mollify the psychoactive effects of the THC on the CB-1 receptors, so that they are less prone to anxiety attacks or discombobulation.

Dr Melamede said that they used Citicoline at 3X the oil dose, to ameliorate the THC effects, and on our list to try.

I have never tried Citicoline, removing the terpenes for smoked Cannabis will help, if you do not mind a boring THC. CBD will also help but is way way more effective if smoked before any THC, then it can easily block the high from THC. I assume CBD will do the same if eaten before THC but I have not tried it yet. 100Mg pure CBD vaporized before any THC will block almost all the THC's high effects, for sure.
100Mg CBD and 100MG THC vaporized at the same time will get you high, but it will delay the onset of the THC, reduce peak experience, and make it last longer. I can't stand CBD from a recreational point of view, it is just boring and makes THC the same. THCV does the same, CBC a bit, CBN makes the THC high all fuzzy and physical but you do get a little high even on CBN alone, although I don't like it at all.
Friends in Calif have told me that if they smoke something great and high in THC and then later smoke 100 Mg pure CBD they get almost straight and the high is gone....
-SamS

At any rate, it is appalling to me to see some of the prices attached to CBD oil, when it costs cents per gram to extract and can be extracted from hemp.

I salute making legal high CBD oil available to folks in need, but some of the usury prices are an example of opportunists grabbing low hanging fruit from desperate end of life brothers and sisters.

.

 

[jackgastche]

I have never tried Citicoline, removing the terpenes for smoked Cannabis will help, if you do not mind a boring THC.

Will help do what exactly?

 

[Gray Wolf]

In what sense are the effects of THC claimed to be ameliorated? I have been supplementing citicoline cycled on/off with phosphatidylcholine for years and on their own they are rather underwhelming in any effects they produce. They do make a rather profound difference when coupled with proper racetams however.

Dr Melamede says they reduce anxiety attacks and discombobulation.

 

[Gray Wolf]

.

All good questions, but a little like sipping from a fire hose. Unfortunately, I didn’t ask him many of your questions, because our time was limited with him and we had another list of questions, as did the audience.

I’m sure Dr Melamede would be happy to discuss your list with you, and if you are interested, I will arrange a personal introduction.

He is in his 60’s and just retired from the U of W and the Academy of Sciences, to retire in Vermont, but wasn’t been too busy with relocations, to answer my questions via phone last week, and is a wealth of knowledge.

In general, to the question of whether high CBD strains are required to treat cancer and other immune system disorders, his response was no, that the strain wasn’t as important as flooding the available cannabinoid receptors. The strains with a few percent CBD worked as well as those with higher CBD and that THC appeared to be the major player.

That discussion was during his lecture and was recorded, so when the CD’s are finally available, which should be within the next 30 days, I would be happy to send you one, to an address of your choosing.

The dosage levels required, make it impractical to use processes other than oral, topical, or suppositories. We typically provide one gram a day, to be taken in three equal doses.

I agree that CBD is a bummer from a recreational standpoint. Views on the psychoactive effects aren’t uniform however, as the end of life medical patients that I’ve worked with, are most often focused on living and the absence of a high is of less consequence, than it would be to for instance, a PTSD patient.

 

[Nickog]

Thanks everyone for the info. I currently have 3 people who have asked me to make them Rick Simpson Oil as their last hope. I am happy to help and want to document the treatment to add to the data base of (hopefully) people cured by cannabis. If I am going to do this, I want to do it right! All 3 have different types of cancer and all 3 have been told they have less than a year to live. Thanks to this forum and years of experience, I believe I make as pure an oil that anyone can make. My concern for all three is how can anyone eat a full gram daily! When I make eatables , one gram makes 20 treats. I personally have trouble eating one of my treats, much less the idea of the strength of 20!

 

[Gray Wolf]

Thanks everyone for the info. I currently have 3 people who have asked me to make them Rick Simpson Oil as their last hope. I am happy to help and want to document the treatment to add to the data base of (hopefully) people cured by cannabis. If I am going to do this, I want to do it right! All 3 have different types of cancer and all 3 have been told they have less than a year to live. Thanks to this forum and years of experience, I believe I make as pure an oil that anyone can make. My concern for all three is how can anyone eat a full gram daily! When I make eatables , one gram makes 20 treats. I personally have trouble eating one of my treats, much less the idea of the strength of 20!

Therein lies the rub. We've provided 90 days worth of treatment to a few patients, who overdid it and were overwhelmed enough to drop the treatment.

Interestingly one colon cancer patient dropped it and gave it to another colon cancer patient who took it. The first patient died of cancer and the second patient wrote a glowing account after his tumor disappeared.

Another discussed it with his doctor, and they decided to use it only for nausea. His wife returned most of the oil when he died of his cancer and we passed it on to another "end of life" cancer patient, who is still alive two years later.

We've had successes with some cancers, yet not with others, and Dr Melamede says it is because some cancers are sugar burners and some are fat burners. The sugar burners are the easiest to cure.

Hee, hee, hee, we have no aspirations of being the leading researchers in this field, but am happy to announce that Skunk Pharm Research has now added a volunteer licensed MD and a volunteer licensed Pharmacist to our staff, to help us sort through the morass.

Please welcome Dr. Mark, and Dr. Kate!

As I've previously noted, we'ns are a couple of ooold retired engineers, and a bright young Biotechnologist, so adding a couple medical professionals will ostensibly raise our game to the next level. Dr's Mark and Kate won't be writing or filling script, but will be sharing their insights and answering comments.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

All good questions, but a little like sipping from a fire hose. Unfortunately, I didn’t ask him many of your questions, because our time was limited with him and we had another list of questions, as did the audience.

I’m sure Dr Melamede would be happy to discuss your list with you, and if you are interested, I will arrange a personal introduction.

Go ahead and send it to him, he can post it to you and you can PM me with the info.

He is in his 60’s and just retired from the U of W and the Academy of Sciences, to retire in Vermont, but wasn’t been too busy with relocations, to answer my questions via phone last week, and is a wealth of knowledge.

In general, to the question of whether high CBD strains are required to treat cancer and other immune system disorders, his response was no, that the strain wasn’t as important as flooding the available cannabinoid receptors. The strains with a few percent CBD worked as well as those with higher CBD and that THC appeared to be the major player.

That discussion was during his lecture and was recorded, so when the CD’s are finally available, which should be within the next 30 days, I would be happy to send you one, to an address of your choosing.

The dosage levels required, make it impractical to use processes other than oral, topical, or suppositories. We typically provide one gram a day, to be taken in three equal doses.

I can easily vape 100Mg pure CBD in a single breath, so 10 breaths and a gram. Not that I like it.....
-SamS

I agree that CBD is a bummer from a recreational standpoint. Views on the psychoactive effects aren’t uniform however, as the end of life medical patients that I’ve worked with, are most often focused on living and the absence of a high is of less consequence, than it would be to for instance, a PTSD patient.

.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Will help do what exactly?

Reduce the psychoactive effects.
-SamS

 

[Gray Wolf]

.
[FONT=&quot]Go ahead and send it to him, he can post it to you and you can PM me with the info.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I can easily vape 100Mg pure CBD in a single breath, so 10 breaths and a gram. Not that I like it.....

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-SamS[/FONT]

OK, I will simply ask him to answer your specific list of questions, rather than setting him as a resource for you, but if that simply stirs additional questions, I sure that you understand that I am heavily loaded at the present and I don't have free time to continue to do so.

A few thoughts regarding vaping a gram of CBD.

According to Dr Melamede, CBD is not the main actor, so vaping a gram may or may not resolve the medical issues.

The second is that inhaling 100mg, doesn't equate to the same as oral or sublingual ingestion, because you exhale more than you retain.

Yet a third is that the chronic bronchitis that I've developed tells me that using the lungs for heavy doses, would most likely create other medical issues.

From what I've see thus far, cannabis doesn't cure anything, it simply helps our endocannabinoid system return normal balance, but the fact that our system was out of balance and our endocannabinoid system was not able to address it, suggests a deeper underlying cause.

IE: I'm aware of a miraculous cure, which a couple of years later came back. The tumor went away a second time with treatment and the patient has been on a maintenance dose ever since.

I mention that because in the overall picture, the ingestion method is most likely longer term than 90 days and coughing does take its toll.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Done!

7-31-14

Morning Dr. Bob!

Here is the list of questions that I spoke to you about. Thanks for taking the time to share!

1.0 Which phyto-Cannabinoids flood which receptors?

2.0 Does that include the acid forms of all the Cannabinoids binding to receptors?

3.0 What receptors does CBD bind to?

4.0 How much binding to the CB-2 receptors?

5.0 Were your trials conducted with oral or smoked/vaporized meds?

6.0 What percent THC vis a vis other Cannabinoids did you find most effective?

7.0 How much difference do the ~140 other terpenes make.

8.0 Which ones does are most important in combination with CBD?

9.0 How effective did you find CBD in controlling the psychoactive effects of THC, vis a vis Citicoline?


Peace, JD

 

[gardenfather]

"From what I've see thus far, cannabis doesn't cure anything,"

So all the study's that these researches have done, saying that cannabis stops the growth of cancer and eats the cancer is not true? I know nothing is a cure, we cant even cure the common cold. But if it can stop the growth or eat the cancer that's good news no? unless this is all false and those articles are all BS. Just wondering Im not a dr/research or any of the above just writing what I read. Also "government" <-- Bs Says that there is no medical benifits to Cannabis. This must be 1000000% false obv coming from their mouths. Ive seen it from a personal point its medically helped people but just ease the pain of cancer but help control Parkinson disease and also made this cripple person walk when smoking weed.

Thanks

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Thank you.
If he is mistaken he needs to correct his opinion.
Or if I am, I need to.
-SamS

Done!

7-31-14

Morning Dr. Bob!

Here is the list of questions that I spoke to you about. Thanks for taking the time to share!

1.0 Which phyto-Cannabinoids flood which receptors?

2.0 Does that include the acid forms of all the Cannabinoids binding to receptors?

3.0 What receptors does CBD bind to?

4.0 How much binding to the CB-2 receptors?

5.0 Were your trials conducted with oral or smoked/vaporized meds?

6.0 What percent THC vis a vis other Cannabinoids did you find most effective?

7.0 How much difference do the ~140 other terpenes make.

8.0 Which ones does are most important in combination with CBD?

9.0 How effective did you find CBD in controlling the psychoactive effects of THC, vis a vis Citicoline?


Peace, JD

 

[Gray Wolf]

"From what I've see thus far, cannabis doesn't cure anything,"

So all the study's that these researches have done, saying that cannabis stops the growth of cancer and eats the cancer is not true? I know nothing is a cure, we cant even cure the common cold. But if it can stop the growth or eat the cancer that's good news no? unless this is all false and those articles are all BS. Just wondering Im not a dr/research or any of the above just writing what I read. Also "government" <-- Bs Says that there is no medical benifits to Cannabis. This must be 1000000% false obv coming from their mouths. Ive seen it from a personal point its medically helped people but just ease the pain of cancer but help control Parkinson disease and also made this cripple person walk when smoking weed.

Thanks

You misread my statement.

Research suggests that Cannabis helps the body cure itself by restoring apoptosis and denying the tumor new blood supplies. You are still cured and Cannabis was the instigator, but once restored, your own immune system did the heavy lifting.

 

[medicalmj]

Thanks everyone for the info. I currently have 3 people who have asked me to make them Rick Simpson Oil as their last hope. I am happy to help and want to document the treatment to add to the data base of (hopefully) people cured by cannabis. If I am going to do this, I want to do it right! All 3 have different types of cancer and all 3 have been told they have less than a year to live. Thanks to this forum and years of experience, I believe I make as pure an oil that anyone can make. My concern for all three is how can anyone eat a full gram daily! When I make eatables , one gram makes 20 treats. I personally have trouble eating one of my treats, much less the idea of the strength of 20!

Here's the deal, as I may be called upon to soon to help also.

The original studies of the anti-tumor properties were looking at THC. Additionally researches still conclude its the THC that is most responsible for shrinking tumors. However, for seizures its the CBD.

Now on to making medicine. I think the RS oil method is too crude and potentially harmful, not to mention dangerous. After experimenting with several extraction methods here's what I found to be the safest and most efficeint:

Make dry, mechanically produce kief and then mix into the strongest grain alcohol you can find, filter, freeze, refilter, then evaporate the alcohol. In more detail:

To make the hash I have done several methods but think the dry ice may be the best method. The key is to get it really dry and gently break up any buds like you would to pack a bowl but not ground up. Since it will be filtered again I use a 220 micron only. This will collect maximum amount but also brings plant material so it is low grade hash at this point.

Next, take the keif and add to a small amount of the grain alcohol. A fifth of grain alcohol should be able to handle a few ounces. I put one ounce of keif in about a pint and then shake it up and let it sit for a few minutes. Then strain through a coffee filter. Put this in the freezer overnight.

By freezing the hash liquor the fats and lipids coagulate. Now filter one more time through coffee filter. This needs to be evaporated. Since this is such a small volume it poses little risk and will evap quickly. You can use a rice cooker with fluid in it. Just set the container inside and couple hours later you got pure safe oil.

NO ISOPROPYL. And I can smell the iso in the RS method a month later so I don't wanna give that to anyone.

Finally, at some point this has to be decarboxylated. I prefer to do this first and it also dries it out really well. Put it in the oven at 200F for 45 min or 250F for 30 min. Then place in freezer until ready to use.

 

[medicalmj]

"From what I've see thus far, cannabis doesn't cure anything,"

So all the study's that these researches have done, saying that cannabis stops the growth of cancer and eats the cancer is not true? I know nothing is a cure, we cant even cure the common cold. But if it can stop the growth or eat the cancer that's good news no? unless this is all false and those articles are all BS. Just wondering Im not a dr/research or any of the above just writing what I read. Also "government" <-- Bs Says that there is no medical benifits to Cannabis. This must be 1000000% false obv coming from their mouths. Ive seen it from a personal point its medically helped people but just ease the pain of cancer but help control Parkinson disease and also made this cripple person walk when smoking weed.

Thanks

Read the actual studies. Start with the abstracts since they are more easily understood and terminology is not too sophisticated.

That being said these are not bogus studies. They are performed by professionals and to scientific standards. There are billions of dollars at stake here and those who are currently getting rich cannot make money of weed. So, we are being poisoned for profit.

 

[medicalmj]

Here's the deal, as I may be called upon to soon to help also.

The original studies of the anti-tumor properties were looking at THC. Additionally researches still conclude its the THC that is most responsible for shrinking tumors. However, for seizures its the CBD.

Now on to making medicine. I think the RS oil method is too crude and potentially harmful, not to mention dangerous. After experimenting with several extraction methods here's what I found to be the safest and most efficeint:

Make dry, mechanically produce kief and then mix into the strongest grain alcohol you can find, filter, freeze, refilter, then evaporate the alcohol. In more detail:

To make the hash I have done several methods but think the dry ice may be the best method. The key is to get it really dry and gently break up any buds like you would to pack a bowl but not ground up. Since it will be filtered again I use a 220 micron only. This will collect maximum amount but also brings plant material so it is low grade hash at this point.

Next, take the keif and add to a small amount of the grain alcohol. A fifth of grain alcohol should be able to handle a few ounces. I put one ounce of keif in about a pint and then shake it up and let it sit for a few minutes. Then strain through a coffee filter. Put this in the freezer overnight.

By freezing the hash liquor the fats and lipids coagulate. Now filter one more time through coffee filter. This needs to be evaporated. Since this is such a small volume it poses little risk and will evap quickly. You can use a rice cooker with fluid in it. Just set the container inside and couple hours later you got pure safe oil.

NO ISOPROPYL. And I can smell the iso in the RS method a month later so I don't wanna give that to anyone.

Finally, at some point this has to be decarboxylated. I prefer to do this first and it also dries it out really well. Put it in the oven at 200F for 45 min or 250F for 30 min. Then place in freezer until ready to use.

As to the dosing, it takes a gram of this per day! You have to ramp up to the effective dose and it takes about a month or so to get there.