Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[redlaser]

It's possible to do this in a sensible way, but legal?

We are talking about within the state of California. It's legal. In addition, you are only sending root, stem, and soil samples, no buds or leaves are necessary. I would vacuum seal them.

 

[Loc Dog]

Some articles I found -

Nematodes and Fusarium -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15759439

Some expert knowledge on pathogens -
http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=727

It seems some could have nematodes or fusarium, which becomes rampant with root-knot nematodes.

If Storm Shadow's were above ground, then they should be stem nematodes. Would make sense if it was spread with cuttings.

 

[RetroGrow]

Some articles I found -

Nematodes and Fusarium -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15759439

Some expert knowledge on pathogens -
http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=727

It seems some could have nematodes or fusarium, which becomes rampant with root-knot nematodes.

If Storm Shadow's were above ground, then they should be stem nematodes. Would make sense if it was spread with cuttings.

Storm Shadow's been messing with Iranian strains, too.

 

[Loc Dog]

I just sliced open the stem of the DUD Witches Broom Plants I have.....

Zoomed in 200X ... Saw lil Micro Worms smaller than any mite Ive ever seen doing laps and flipping me off in the process

Was it found above ground??? If so, could you check roots also??

 

[RetroGrow]

Was it found above ground??? If so, could you check roots also??

You always want to check your roots in any case.
Certain strains of plants are resistant to parasitic nematodes, so possible some strains are more or less prone to damage. Some strains might be completely resistant, others might be particularly susceptible.
The fact that he's growing Iranian strains would have nothing to do with nematodes, but could have implications re: fusarium. Spores can be on seeds, so it's possible (emphasis on possible)imported seeds from Iran or other locations, could introduce different strains of fusarium to a locale where they are not naturally indigenous.
Actinovate can be used as a seed inoculate, preventing fungal infections before they start.
From the PDF:
Actinovate Seed Inoculant is a high concentration of
a beneficial microbe that promotes plant health, size,
and root growth; increases yield and aids in reducing
or eliminating the use of chemical fungicides."
Dissolve Actinovate Seed Inoculant
in appropriate amount of water (enough to barely
cover seed) to create solution. Soak seed in
solution for 1 hr just prior to planting.
Slurry:
Just prior to planting dissolve in appropriate
amount of water and apply through slurry."

http://naturalindustries.com/commercial/Docs/2012/stpfactsheet.pdf

More on parasitic nematodes. There are 6 types, one of which works above ground, affecting branches, so that would be one guess as the culprit here. Ditylenchus dipsaci is it's name.

"Nematodes are tiny roundworms, also called eelworms. Nematodes are not closely related to earthworms. Built on a much smaller and simpler scale, they have no respiratory nor circulatory systems. Their nervous system is so simple it can be described at the level of individual cells. Caenorhabditis elegans, for instance, has exactly three hundred and two neurons.
Crop damage by nematodes is underrated due to their small size and the unseen (mostly underground) nature of their pathology. Above-ground symptoms consist of stunting, reduced yield and insipient wilting (drooping of leaves during midday with recovery at night). Farmers may misinterpret symptoms as mineral deficiencies or drought, mysteriously arising despite adequate nutrients and moisture. These symptoms do not occur uniformly across a field, but in pockets of scattered infestation. Below ground symptoms are more distinctive, including root knots or galls. Six nematodes are known to infest Cannabis. All species attack roots except one.
Root knot nematodes embed themselves in roots and induce plants to form giant cells or syncytia. Syncytia swell into root galls and stimulate formation of adventitious rootlets, creating a bushy root. Compound galls arise on larger roots forming "root knots": hypertrophied roots with a rough surface. The southern root knot nematode, Meloidogyne incognita, has been reported on fiber cultivars in Europe, the former USSR, Brazil, and the southern United States. M. incognita is the most widely distributed worldwide, and attacks hundreds of hosts. Two other species are rarely reported: the northern root knot nematode Meliodogyne hapla and the Java root knot nematode Meloidogyne javanica.

The stem nematode, Ditylenchus dipsaci, uniquely lives above the ground and does not infest roots. Initial symptoms arise in stems, branches and leaf petioles, which swell and become chlorotic. Stems subsequently become twisted and distorted with shortened internodes. Plants are stunted. D. dipsaci is found in North America, southern Africa, Australia, and temperate areas of Asia. But Cannabis disease has only been described from fiber varieties in Europe. Other nematodes are rarely reported: cyst nematodes (Heterodera schachtii, H. humuli), needle nematodes (Paralongidorus maximus), and root lesion nematodes (Pratylenchus penetrans)."

http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=727

 

[Storm Shadow]

Im about to do a heavy flush with High Grade Chitosan ... I just read these evil bastards hate the stuff... I use it a lot in my foliar sprays....but rarely drench the roots with it....

Lets see what it does!

 

[oceangrownkush]

SS, think you could post up that link to agricultural chitosan you posted a minute back? Had it bookmarked but old lappy took a shit. If you've been experimenting with dosages for it I'm all ears as well.. Everything I've read on it sounds awesome.

 

[Grizz]

sounds promising but I really don't think it could be the final answer to the sour dub duding phenom.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Im about to do a heavy flush with High Grade Chitosan ... I just read these evil bastards hate the stuff... I use it a lot in my foliar sprays....but rarely drench the roots with it....

Lets see what it does!

Storm Shadow,
You still need to ID the nematodes you found. As well as any other pathogens or pests you may have, take it to the lab OK?
There are some 500 species of nematodes that are plant parasites, but only a few effect Cannabis, Not all nematodes are bad news some are beneficial and prey on pests.

Root Knot Nematodes
Meloidogyne species include
Meloidogyne incognita, Southern Root Knot Nematode
Meloidogyne hapla, Northern Root Knot Nematode
Meloidogyne javanica, Java Root Knot Nematode

Cyst Nematodes
Heterodera schachtii, Sugar Beet Cyst Nematode
Heterodera humuli, Hops Cyst Nematode

Stem Nematode (this is the Alfalfa Stem Nematode) also called the Long Stem Nematode
Ditylenchus dipsaci

Root Lesion Nematode
Pratylenchus penetrans

Needle Nematode
Paralongidorus maximus

Spiral Nematodes
Heliocotylenchus & Scutellonema species

Reniform Nematodes
Rotylenchuls species

Cannabis was used in rotation with sugar beet crops in the Netherlands, to suppress the nematodes that caused problems for the sugar beets, worked great. There are bacterial and fungal bio-controls like bacterium Burkholderia (Pseudomonas) cepacia, against lesion, sting, lance, sprial nematodes.

Fungus, Myrothecium Verrucaria, for Meloidogyne, Heterodera, Pratylenchus, Xiphinema species.
Arthrobotrys robusta & Dactylaria superba species, for Ditylenchus & Meloidogyne species.

Bacterium, Pasturia (Bacillus) penetrans, for Meloidogyne, Heterodera, Ditylenchus, Paralongidorus, Pratylenchus species.

Fungus, Verticillium chlamydosporium kill many nematode species.

Fungus, Hirsutella rhossiliensis for Heterodera, Meloidogyne, Ditylenchus, Pratylenchus, Xiphinema species as well as killing beneficial nematode species Steinernema and Heterorhabditis.

Nematophthora gynophila, is an obligate parasite of nematodes in the Genus Heterodera.

Beneficial Nematodes
Heterorhabditis bacteriophora
Heterorhabditis indica
Heterorhabditis marelatus
Steinernema carpocapse
Steinernema kraussei
Steinernema feltiae is used against Root Knot Nematodes

Nematodes usually are introduced into new areas with infested soil or plants. Prevent nematodes from entering your garden by using only nematode-free plants purchased from reliable suppliers. To prevent the spread of nematodes, avoid moving plants and soil from infested parts of the garden. Don’t allow irrigation water from around infested plants to run off, as this also spreads nematodes. Nematodes can be present in soil attached to tools and equipment used elsewhere, so clean tools thoroughly before using them in your garden.

-SamS

 

[Storm Shadow]

SS, think you could post up that link to agricultural chitosan you posted a minute back? Had it bookmarked but old lappy took a shit. If you've been experimenting with dosages for it I'm all ears as well.. Everything I've read on it sounds awesome.

http://www.bestchitosan.com/e_productshow/?22-Chitosan-Oligosaccharide-Powder-22.html

Chitosan Oligosaccharide

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Once I harvest in a couple of weeks.... Im going to drive my DUDs up to Norcal and get them into the lab.....only reason I haven't done it yet...Im not sending shit through the Mail... any form of cannabis in the US post office is a federal offense.... Ive got way too much to lose to even let something so minute have the chance at taken me down...

I almost got rolled and twice in the last 6 months...between my commercial grow that cost me 50k+ in losses and 50k+ Ive spent building the new place..... I could care less about $$$$$$ ... Anyone growing cannabis who cant fork up a few hundred bucks to figure out this problem ...isn't doing it for a living like some of us

Great! This is the solution, everyone that can and has an example of a suspect problem, needs to be tested for pathogens/pests so we can start to get to the bottom of this.

Earlier I was asked if this is as big a problem in the EU, but I only know that while I have found Fusarium or Verticilum or Pythium as well as Botrytris and a few other fungi and bacteria. I have not yet found BM, CM, or RM, on my own plants or on others in the EU. And have not really seen "Duds" other then from some of the fungi/bacteria/nematodes/viruses I have listed in post 1109 post 23, post 85 in this thread.

 

[RetroGrow]

Nematodes are thought to inject injurious substances into the plant when they feed.

Sound familiar?

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/02952.html

Nematode search engine:
http://plpnemweb.ucdavis.edu/nemaplex/Nemabase2010/NematodeHostRangeQuery.aspx
Plug in the type of nematode, and it shows you the host plants and range.
Plug in "Ditylenchus dipsaci", and you get Cannabis Sativa as a host.

"Ditylenchus dipsaci is a plant pathogenic nematode that primarily infects onion and garlic. It is commonly known as the stem nematode, the stem and bulb eelworm or onion bloat (in the United Kingdom). Symptoms of infection include stunted growth, discoloration of bulbs, and swollen stems. D. dipsaci is a migratory endoparasite that has a five-stage life cycle and the ability to enter into a dormancy stage. D. dipsaci enters through stoma or plant wounds and create galls or malformations in plant growth. This allows for the entrance of secondary pathogens like fungi and bacteria. Management of disease is maintained through seed sanitation, heat treatment, crop rotation, and fumigation of fields. D. dipsaci is economically detrimental because infected crops are unmarketable."
This supports the theory of multiple pathogens, as we suspected all along, as the nematodes promote the entrance of secondary pathogens, like fungi or bacteria.
So Ditylenchus dipsaci kind of go together with fusarium.
"D. dipsaci feed on the parenchymatous cells of the cortex once inside the plant. They release an enzyme pectinase that dissolves the cell walls. Once D. dipsaci begin to feed on the plant, cells near the head of the nematode lose all or a portion of their contents. The cells surrounding these begin to divide and enlarge. This develops into a gall or malformation of the seedling. This opening allows secondary pathogens to enter such as bacteria and fungi. Favorable entry of young seedlings in the soil occurs through the root cap or from inside the seed. The plant cells become enlarged due to the disappearance of chloroplasts and an increase of intracellular spaces in parenchyma tissue. Once the bulbs enlarge, D. dipsaci will migrate down the stem. This causes the stem to become puffy and soft due to cavities, which can lead to collapse. D. dipsaci will only enter the soil again if living conditions become unfavorable."
"D. dipsaci can survive on or in plant tissue by entering cryptobiosis and survive for 3–5 years in this stage!
Read more @:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ditylenchus_dipsaci
Not saying this is the only possible nematode, but it sure fits the symptoms/theories/hypothesis, including multiple pathogens. It would be my suspect #1.
Send via Fed Ex for testing to be sure.

Note: Heat treatment is one of the remedies. Sound familiar?
They also can be passed through seed,which is surprising.
"Several different methods are currently employed to reduce the presence and destruction of D. dipsaci. Infection can be prevented by insuring that only clean seeds and bulbs are planted. Growers should inspect seeds and bulbs for any signs of disease and rot before planting. Seeds and bulbs that show signs of disease should not be planted. When importing seeds or bulbs from other areas, growers should ensure that the source is not infected with nematodes and the stock is clean. Bulbs and seeds can be disinfected by hot water treatments. Soaking them in 110 to 115 °F water with formalin, a formaldehyde solution, for two to three hours can successfully kill nematodes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ditylenchus_dipsaci

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

i somehow missed that you had seen dudding in the eu sam. so you saw similar witches broom type symptoms from root diseases ?my sample did show pythium but they felt it wasnt a contributing factor.i am taking the same specimin back in to get tested hopefully next week or two. i have a few more things noe to add to the list. nematodes.we shall see. good work storm.and everyone sourcing info etc.

Great! This is the solution, everyone that can and has an example of a suspect problem, needs to be tested for pathogens/pests so we can start to get to the bottom of this.

Earlier I was asked if this is as big a problem in the EU, but I only know that while I have found Fusarium or Verticilum or Pythium as well as Botrytris and a few other fungi and bacteria. I have not yet found BM, CM, or RM, on my own plants or on others in the EU. And have not really seen "Duds" other then from the fungi I have listed above.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

sounds promising but I really don't think it could be the final answer to the sour dub duding phenom.

im not disagreeing with this notion but i amcurious why this seems unlikely as the cause in the dubb to you.

 

[RetroGrow]

i somehow missed that you had seen dudding in the eu sam. so you saw similar witches broom type symptoms from root diseases ?my sample did show pythium but they felt it wasnt a contributing factor.i am taking the same specimin back in to get tested hopefully next week or two. i have a few more things noe to add to the list. nematodes.we shall see. good work storm.and everyone sourcing info etc.

No, he HASN'T seen duds in Europe. That was the point.
Not unusual to find pythium spores. They may be in trace amounts that may do no harm.

 

[RetroGrow]

im not disagreeing with this notion but i amcurious why this seems unlikely as the cause in the dubb to you.

Yes, keep in mind that these can remain dormant for 3-5 years before emerging, can be passed by seed and often go hand in hand with other pathogens, which may emerge as plants immune system is compromised.
This SEEMS to fit most of the hypotheses that we have come up with, and I believe the testing will confirm, as the people at A L & L are very familiar with it.
Still, may be something unique about SourDubb pathogen, but this is counter-intuitive. It's still cannabis, regardless of strain.

 

[Storm Shadow]

So I used 8 grams of Chitosan per gallon... Most studies say 500mg-1g per gallon is all you need.... anyways no signs of anything bad like phytotoxicity ...

I might be a bit optimistic, But I feel this Chitosan might get the ladies in Veg with small leaves to grow normal again... from DUD to STUD ...

This feels so awesome to have so many great minded folks attacking this issue together ... I feel like the IPM we'll come up with for these guys will be like nothing else on the Internet....

We growers all came together when Root Aphids and Broad Mites blind sided us all.... Once again we'll do the same thing with this issue and prevail in the face of the Microscopic Evil

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

@ retro As far as this not being coco. I do no of at least 2 coco growers reporting this. They are in la and run coco beds. I'm pretty sure they reuse medium round after round but do not have this cad a persistent issue.

 

[Grizz]

im not disagreeing with this notion but i amcurious why this seems unlikely as the cause in the dubb to you.

well I am hoping it is but what I don't understand is how I can get a cut of sour dub from someone that has had no dud issue and within 2 runs I am getting duds. I grow in coco, fresh new coco every grow, also it will be the only one duding in a multi strain grow, then I get a gg4 x hb that duds, no others duding. the gg4x hb seeds came from someone that has never had a dud. it seems unlikely that this could happen, I might agree if I had been growing in the same spot but I have changed grow spots several times.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

i agree. the nematode theory leaves several unanswered questions. like yours. the only thin i can figure is suseptibility playing a role. but thats a stab in the dark. tests forthcoming hopefully.