Fantastic and inspirational FE!
Big Soil Little Room, Recycled soil trial
- Thread starter FatherEarth
- Start date
Nah the glues haven't rooted yet.. Going with the heavy hitters, my three allstars. The WC D.O.G, URL, NL X TW... MIght throw a fire alien romulan in the mix. Had some tested came back at 25% and yielded well so yea... Tryin to bust 3 a light I gotta stick to my proven performers. Would be easy if I just mono cropped the NL x TW or the D.O.G. ... I'll be back with some ways to amend these beds and a discussion of the math to figure out how much of what. Should be a good discussion. Should make the whole amending issue a bit easier for all those wondering how. At least that's my hope ...
Thanks to all for the encouragement, I'm going to need it with the challenges ahead. I've accepted a job managing a facility that runs coco. I'll eventually be converting it to all soil if it goes well. All legal and on paper too..It's going to be a real challenge as are the goals I have to meet for the project to be successful,lol.. We' ll see how it goes. I'm going to ask permission to document the journey before I divulge anymore details.
Respect,
FE
Thanks to all for the encouragement, I'm going to need it with the challenges ahead. I've accepted a job managing a facility that runs coco. I'll eventually be converting it to all soil if it goes well. All legal and on paper too..It's going to be a real challenge as are the goals I have to meet for the project to be successful,lol.. We' ll see how it goes. I'm going to ask permission to document the journey before I divulge anymore details.
Respect,
FE
reading material
reading material
A useful PDF to have on hand
These are the tables Im using to convert the analysis deficit numbers into how much I need to apply per bed. Specifically the Calcium, using Gypsum to get up to the desired base saturation.
Beds are roughly about 4x4'...
reading material
A useful PDF to have on hand
These are the tables Im using to convert the analysis deficit numbers into how much I need to apply per bed. Specifically the Calcium, using Gypsum to get up to the desired base saturation.
Beds are roughly about 4x4'...
My estimates
My estimates
So from the above listed guidelines for fertilizer applications..
2,000lbs per acre = 20.8 grams per sq ft
Each bed is roughly 16 sq ft.
So the Ca deficit on SB6 for example is 5839 lbs per acre.
I estimated that to be 2.8 acres so I multiplied that by 20.8 = 58.4
So 58.4 grams of calcium per sq ft. multiply that by the bed square footage 16 = 931.84 grams
So then factoring in how much calcium is in the gypsum Im using..
Sof N Soil Gypsum
"Works like millions of tiny hoes"
(Actual company slogan)
____________________
Calcium (Ca) %19.6000
Sulfur (S) %15.7000
Total
Calcium Sulfate (CaSO42H2O) 82.00%
Considering that 82% will be calcium sulfate I feel its close enough for me. Im really just trying to get into the right ballpark doesnt need to be exact so Im going with the original gram total.
So if 2 cups of fertilizer = 1lb
Which would be:
931.84 / 454 = 2.05lbs = approx 4 cups of gypsum for soil bed # 6
This is how Im estimating how much gypsum to use.
Does anyone think this is not correct?
Is there an easier way to figure out how much to amend?
Anyone care to share their method of figuring out how to amend this particular issue?
Respectfully,
FE
My estimates
So from the above listed guidelines for fertilizer applications..
2,000lbs per acre = 20.8 grams per sq ft
Each bed is roughly 16 sq ft.
So the Ca deficit on SB6 for example is 5839 lbs per acre.
I estimated that to be 2.8 acres so I multiplied that by 20.8 = 58.4
So 58.4 grams of calcium per sq ft. multiply that by the bed square footage 16 = 931.84 grams
So then factoring in how much calcium is in the gypsum Im using..
Sof N Soil Gypsum
"Works like millions of tiny hoes"
(Actual company slogan)
____________________
Calcium (Ca) %19.6000
Sulfur (S) %15.7000
Total
Calcium Sulfate (CaSO42H2O) 82.00%
Considering that 82% will be calcium sulfate I feel its close enough for me. Im really just trying to get into the right ballpark doesnt need to be exact so Im going with the original gram total.
So if 2 cups of fertilizer = 1lb
Which would be:
931.84 / 454 = 2.05lbs = approx 4 cups of gypsum for soil bed # 6
This is how Im estimating how much gypsum to use.
Does anyone think this is not correct?
Is there an easier way to figure out how much to amend?
Anyone care to share their method of figuring out how to amend this particular issue?
Respectfully,
FE
I dont think I will be using this lab again. I can get a quicker turn around time and cheaper overall if I use a local company. The recommendations at Logan are 30$ each thats more than the tests@ 25$...
Here is what the lab suggested for SB2. Also the answer to my question about the H..
Now that my PH is steady from the inoculation with microbes this suggestion would raise my PH out of target range. Gypsum is the answer. Im going to call and speak with them about the issue.
**Notes**
Inoculate soil with Spectrum Extra,Pepzyme c, Rejuvenate, wait a week to 10 days before sending in any samples for analysis.
FE
Here is what the lab suggested for SB2. Also the answer to my question about the H..
Now that my PH is steady from the inoculation with microbes this suggestion would raise my PH out of target range. Gypsum is the answer. Im going to call and speak with them about the issue.
**Notes**
Inoculate soil with Spectrum Extra,Pepzyme c, Rejuvenate, wait a week to 10 days before sending in any samples for analysis.
FE
Photosynthesis
Member
I should have paid attention more in math class. I was to busy being stoned though. 
I am glad I have been following as I was getting ready to send a sample to Logan Labs to see where my soil is after 2 recycles. I am sure I will need to bump up my calcium as it seems everyone is going to light on Ca.
It will be interesting to see the results for everything else though.
If you have anymore info on other labs I would be grateful. You can PM if you are not wanting to post it in open forum.
Great thread!
I am glad I have been following as I was getting ready to send a sample to Logan Labs to see where my soil is after 2 recycles. I am sure I will need to bump up my calcium as it seems everyone is going to light on Ca.
It will be interesting to see the results for everything else though.
If you have anymore info on other labs I would be grateful. You can PM if you are not wanting to post it in open forum.
Great thread!
Keep in mind I'm new and learning, but I would start from a more accurate measurement, such as your soil volume and dry weight.
1ppm = 2 lb/acre
2920ppm deficit in Ca, so basically 0.3% Ca needs to be added to that bed.
If you know your dry weight of substrate per liter you can determine how much your yard size bed weighs (764.5L per yard)
I would guess as you have a heavy amount of green compost in your substrate it would be around 150g per liter, 114675 grams per yard bed. 3000ppm would be 344 grams deficit of Ca.
So roughly based on a guessed dry weight of 150g per liter, 900 grams of Calcitic lime or 1.7Kg of gypsum would add 3000ppm to 764 liters of soil.
1ppm = 2 lb/acre
2920ppm deficit in Ca, so basically 0.3% Ca needs to be added to that bed.
If you know your dry weight of substrate per liter you can determine how much your yard size bed weighs (764.5L per yard)
I would guess as you have a heavy amount of green compost in your substrate it would be around 150g per liter, 114675 grams per yard bed. 3000ppm would be 344 grams deficit of Ca.
So roughly based on a guessed dry weight of 150g per liter, 900 grams of Calcitic lime or 1.7Kg of gypsum would add 3000ppm to 764 liters of soil.
A more accurate measurement? Well the desired amount of Ca is calculated by the TEC. Not by soil volume or weight. Doesnt matter the PPM's if your soil cannot hold what you are putting in.
To figure the desired Ca levels is as follows:
TCEC x 400 x 0.68= target level
Mg
TCEC x 240 x 0.12 = target level
So to calculate how much to add after this seems pretty straight forward to me.
Or possibly I misunderstood what you are saying?
Respectfully,
FE
To figure the desired Ca levels is as follows:
TCEC x 400 x 0.68= target level
Mg
TCEC x 240 x 0.12 = target level
So to calculate how much to add after this seems pretty straight forward to me.
Or possibly I misunderstood what you are saying?
Respectfully,
FE
I think some sort of misunderstanding, just sharing what i would do.
A more accurate measurement as in better than 16sqft or 2.8 acres.
Your bed six results and recommendation was to add 5839 lb / acre of calcium. 5839 lb/acre divided by 2 equals ppm, so 2920ppm needs to be added.
To figure out how much 2920ppm represents of your soil bed you need to figure out how much it weighs, which is the same thing they are doing with lbs/acre as the common standard is an acre weighs 2million pounds.
If you knew how much a liter or a gallon of your soil weighs you can accurately add 5839lbs/acre or 2920ppm of calcium.
Not sure if this makes any more sense or not, been a long day.
Take care.
A more accurate measurement as in better than 16sqft or 2.8 acres.
Your bed six results and recommendation was to add 5839 lb / acre of calcium. 5839 lb/acre divided by 2 equals ppm, so 2920ppm needs to be added.
To figure out how much 2920ppm represents of your soil bed you need to figure out how much it weighs, which is the same thing they are doing with lbs/acre as the common standard is an acre weighs 2million pounds.
If you knew how much a liter or a gallon of your soil weighs you can accurately add 5839lbs/acre or 2920ppm of calcium.
Not sure if this makes any more sense or not, been a long day.
Take care.
Ok ,I understand what you were stating. Thank you for the clarification.
So how do you weigh the soil? Oven dried or ?..
Thanks for contributing...
FE
So how do you weigh the soil? Oven dried or ?..
Thanks for contributing...
FE
S
sensibuds
Taking it to another level buddy!
The information, pictures, test results etc really show what can be done to bring your garden to its pinnacle
The information, pictures, test results etc really show what can be done to bring your garden to its pinnacle
I do it like pangea says. When the field soil guys are talking about ppm what they are referring to is weight divided by weight. And they assume an acre weighs 2,000,000 lbs...so 2 lbs of Ca divided by 2,000,000 lbs is 1 ppm.
Compost based soils typically weigh between 750-1000 lbs per yard. If you start chucking top soil in there the weight goes up but I use 800 lbs per yard for the type of soil we normally use. I feel that is a safe number. If anything your soil will weigh a little more...but you don't want to overdo things, that is much harder to fix than not enough.
So basically I take the Logan Lab recommendation and multiply it by 800/2,000,000 for the amount needed for 1 yard. I go by yards instead of sq ft because I see roots filling out the entire container.
There are a couple of more sophisticated calculations you can make. When you add Ca it is going to bump Mg off the cec site...so plus Ca is going to be minus Mg.
Plus when you add Ca it will not all become available in the first grow unless you are using a micronized source. It is estimated CaCO3 will take 3 grows to be available...so you could go a little higher than the recommend and simply go longer without reamending. With gypsum it won't take that long since it is more soluble and generally is ground finer. But you might want to consider say 1.25 x the recommend.
The University of Iowa did some tests back in the early 2000s on how fast different ferts became available to plants. K2SO4 was the quickest...and only 12% was available in the first 90 days. So given our cycles these amendments really start kicking in a few grows.
Micros, on the other hand, can be toxic if you overdo it. So the typical strategy is to sneak up on them for several grows. Like never go more than 0.25 what is required per grow and make sure you take a test before the next amendment...soils are not completely linear because of microbe activity. So go slow on these and supplement with foliar until you get there.
Love your grow bro...much respect. If you want more help with the calcs just let me know I am happy to help. But work through it first and see how it goes...you learn much thinking about the specifics.
Compost based soils typically weigh between 750-1000 lbs per yard. If you start chucking top soil in there the weight goes up but I use 800 lbs per yard for the type of soil we normally use. I feel that is a safe number. If anything your soil will weigh a little more...but you don't want to overdo things, that is much harder to fix than not enough.
So basically I take the Logan Lab recommendation and multiply it by 800/2,000,000 for the amount needed for 1 yard. I go by yards instead of sq ft because I see roots filling out the entire container.
There are a couple of more sophisticated calculations you can make. When you add Ca it is going to bump Mg off the cec site...so plus Ca is going to be minus Mg.
Plus when you add Ca it will not all become available in the first grow unless you are using a micronized source. It is estimated CaCO3 will take 3 grows to be available...so you could go a little higher than the recommend and simply go longer without reamending. With gypsum it won't take that long since it is more soluble and generally is ground finer. But you might want to consider say 1.25 x the recommend.
The University of Iowa did some tests back in the early 2000s on how fast different ferts became available to plants. K2SO4 was the quickest...and only 12% was available in the first 90 days. So given our cycles these amendments really start kicking in a few grows.
Micros, on the other hand, can be toxic if you overdo it. So the typical strategy is to sneak up on them for several grows. Like never go more than 0.25 what is required per grow and make sure you take a test before the next amendment...soils are not completely linear because of microbe activity. So go slow on these and supplement with foliar until you get there.
Love your grow bro...much respect. If you want more help with the calcs just let me know I am happy to help. But work through it first and see how it goes...you learn much thinking about the specifics.
So we have determined I am not good at paying attention. I am so freakin use to Logan Labs I just assume they all tell you how many lbs per acre you need to hit Albrecht numbers.
Anyways, if you wanna go ppm then that would be mgs per kilograms methinks. So 800 lbs per yard is 363 Kilograms per yard. So 363 mg per yard is 1 ppm.
We have been smoking this morning so you might wanna check out that math.
Anyways, if you wanna go ppm then that would be mgs per kilograms methinks. So 800 lbs per yard is 363 Kilograms per yard. So 363 mg per yard is 1 ppm.
We have been smoking this morning so you might wanna check out that math.
Im lost all together now..
Just when I thought I had it figured out, lol...
OR maybe I do...
They do tell you how much you need to add to hit albrecht numbers.
Thats the difference between the desired level and your actual levels. Which is the deficit number.
Thats the key number in figuring how much to add. They show the deficit as per acre so figuring that number down to the size of space and depth you are using is the task.
I believe its one acre at 6 inches so since my beds are about 18 inches it should probably be x3 then use the appropriate amount for the space Im using....?
Although if I were to go with what pangea said @.3% of the total weight estimating the bed is 800lbs as MJ suggests the total amount to add isnt far off from my original calculations.
800lbs / .3% = 2.6lbs
2.6 x 454= 1,180.4 grams
My original calculation was 931 grams still on the low side but also considered the side of caution.
As MJ mentioned I can patch up anything missing with foliar..
So as Im figuring we have just given two different examples of how to calculate the amount to amend based on the soil analysis.
Both giving similar numbers, although MJ/Pangea's way may be more accurate..
Anyone else getting this?
Milkyj,
Your thoughts please?
Respectfully,
FE
Just when I thought I had it figured out, lol...
OR maybe I do...
They do tell you how much you need to add to hit albrecht numbers.
Thats the difference between the desired level and your actual levels. Which is the deficit number.
Thats the key number in figuring how much to add. They show the deficit as per acre so figuring that number down to the size of space and depth you are using is the task.
I believe its one acre at 6 inches so since my beds are about 18 inches it should probably be x3 then use the appropriate amount for the space Im using....?
Although if I were to go with what pangea said @.3% of the total weight estimating the bed is 800lbs as MJ suggests the total amount to add isnt far off from my original calculations.
800lbs / .3% = 2.6lbs
2.6 x 454= 1,180.4 grams
My original calculation was 931 grams still on the low side but also considered the side of caution.
As MJ mentioned I can patch up anything missing with foliar..
So as Im figuring we have just given two different examples of how to calculate the amount to amend based on the soil analysis.
Both giving similar numbers, although MJ/Pangea's way may be more accurate..
Anyone else getting this?
Milkyj,
Your thoughts please?
Respectfully,
FE
10,226 was the desired amount
5,006 Actual amount found
5,220 was the deficit
5,006 Actual amount found
5,220 was the deficit
So 5220 lbs per acre of field soil is what they are telling you...5220 lbs Ca in 2,000,000 lbs of field soil.
A yard of your soil is about 800 lbs...so 5220 x (800/2,000,000) = 2 lbs of Ca in one yard. But gypsum is 20% Ca so you have to take that into account.
2/0.2 = 10 lbs of gypsum to get 2 lbs of Ca.
27 cubic ft in a yard.
So you figure out how many cubic ft in a bed...divide that by 27 and multiply by 10 to figure out lbs per bed.
So say your bed is 8' x 4' x 1.5' (18 inches deep)...48 cubic ft
= 1.8 yards x 10 = 18 lbs of gypsum.
You have to take into account what % is Ca. For example hi cal lime is gonna be around 40% Ca, you would only need half if you choose that. But gypsum won't raise your pH...it will probably drop a hair as Ca replaces Mg on the cec sites. Plus the sulfate will help you leach out the extra K.
A yard of your soil is about 800 lbs...so 5220 x (800/2,000,000) = 2 lbs of Ca in one yard. But gypsum is 20% Ca so you have to take that into account.
2/0.2 = 10 lbs of gypsum to get 2 lbs of Ca.
27 cubic ft in a yard.
So you figure out how many cubic ft in a bed...divide that by 27 and multiply by 10 to figure out lbs per bed.
So say your bed is 8' x 4' x 1.5' (18 inches deep)...48 cubic ft
= 1.8 yards x 10 = 18 lbs of gypsum.
You have to take into account what % is Ca. For example hi cal lime is gonna be around 40% Ca, you would only need half if you choose that. But gypsum won't raise your pH...it will probably drop a hair as Ca replaces Mg on the cec sites. Plus the sulfate will help you leach out the extra K.
