Mineralizing soil

[Cep]

Harry, I'm talking about the end mix. Whats referred to as base cation saturation.

let's not forget that there is a "albrecht vs rodale"~ish view being debated here. many feel that balancing amendments makes for better results & it's hard to argue w/ that logic. many also know that a little of this & that and good humic inputs make for excellent end results as well.

Certainly, these views are debated quite a bit. I fall towards towards Albrecht because I like a target to shoot for. Usually when I aim small I miss small. I also don't see too much conflict because humus is so important and compost is a great source for organic matter.

One of the best mineral sources I've found is Sea Crop. Concentrated sea water with 95% of the salt [NaCl] removed.

Sea crop, from what I've read, is an excellent product. I think I'll give it a go this season.

 

[milkyjoe]

I would suggest reading Steve Solomon's book The Intelligent Gardner and ignoring the misinformation already posted.

Until you take a soil test there is no set way of amending a soil...it depends entirely on what you start with. I fucking hate compost cause every one I have ever tested is high K and also mostly P.

Albrecht is the man...check out his writing from the 40s and 50s

 

[Harry Palmer]

So in an attempt to semi-educate myself, I did some reading on both Rodale and Albrecht methods, and I have some basic questions.

Rodale seems to emphasize heavy use of compost, and puts forth the notion that only black soil is fertile, due to it sequestration of carbon. (just a summation of what I've read, please don't attack me if you are passionate about this subject)

Albrecht, on the other hand, places heavy emphasis on the base cations, identified as calcium, magnesium, potassium, and sodium. There appear to be varying academies on this method, some of which also focus equally as heavy on trace elements, and constant monitoring to ensure optimal levels. (not too little, not too much)

So the big question - how can the Albrecht method be practical? How does one do this monitoring? Where do you send your samples? Is this something that has to be done in conjuntion with a lab to provide "optimal" amendments? How long are soils made with the Albrecht method in mind, used? (and re-used)

To be honest, I understand the premise put forth in each method. But I'm not making money, here. I will use more of my soil for hot peppers and tomatoes than I will MJ. LOL

 

[Harry Palmer]

I think mohammed was pointing out that this was worded poorly. I didn't see the text of his post so I can't say if he addressed it appropriately or not but I can see why he might challenge this point. Why the heavy handed tactics to correct the matter? All around, this thread is a sad commentary on this forum.

Harry, as to your questions - the composition of the potting soil in question should be taken into consideration before adding your mineral mix to it. Generally, you will probably be fine. It's just best to know for sure and a soil test is easy enough to obtain. I would test your base mix before adding any minerals and then amend accordingly.

As for top dressing, if it is highly ground it's no problem but any coarse materials are best globally amended as it is the soil decomposition cycle and oxidation process that will allow them to become plant available. If you choose to top dress, consider adding some additional compost and/or peat on top of the mineral mix. It will help increase break down times as well as help keep the dust down.

I missed this reply earlier. Thanks for taking the time.

So, in general, any dusts - whether they be trace elements or base cations - can be added as a top dress? I mean, maybe it's a silly question, but I've been doing it for years, I don't really know any better.

I use vermicompost, which is another subject I have yet to breach on an internet forum. Is there as much debate about compost vs EWC as there is Albrecht vs Rodale?

 

[Microbeman]

Harry: One thing I believe is that no one has mentioned the life of the soil, as in, how old is it?; how big?; How deep?

If you are growing naturally (which I assume), no amount of inputs, Mehlich based soil tests, nor mineralization is going to mean a damn if your soil is not living. Soil tests are mostly a load of hoooey unless you are using liquid chromatography. I threw my Melich extraction unit in the garbage over ten years ago.

To qualify that, living soil is composed of aggregated particles of various make up with sufficient porosity, including humus, organic matter, rock, etc. inhabited heirarchically by athropods, nematodes (maybe earthworms) bacteria, archaea, amoebae [naked & testate], flagellates, ciliates and fungi.

That is where you begin. Yes compost is very important to this process if you are jumping in with container growing. If you have time for some organic matter to degrade, then don't worry about the compost. Otherwise I agree [vermi]compost is the number one base for natural/organic growing.

I have grown in straight vermicompost and aged wood fines...tomatoes even.

As far as mineralization goes, I used the cheapest thing at hand for my rock dust...free from the rock quarry/gravel yard. For drainage...multi-colored pea gravel. Heavy but works.

Who has the best tasting vegetables? The old lady down the road or the anal guy running off with his soil samples to Joe's lab?

Why do you think it only costs $20. My last test correctly done cost over $250. [and I still don't understand it]

 

[Harry Palmer]

Harry: One thing I believe is that no one has mentioned the life of the soil, as in, how old is it?; how big?; How deep?

Container growing, 5 gal to 12.5 gallon pots. Lots of them. As stated, most of them are my garden.

If you are growing naturally (which I assume), no amount of inputs, Mehlich based soil tests, nor mineralization is going to mean a damn if your soil is not living.

Given that I've used lots of vermicompost, aerated compost teas, and mycos - in addition to never watering with cholirnated/chloriminated water - I'd sure hope that it's alive...

To qualify that, living soil is composed of aggregated particles of various make up with sufficient porosity, including humus, organic matter, rock, etc. inhabited heirarchically by athropods, nematodes (maybe earthworms) bacteria, archaea, amoebae [naked & testate], flagellates, ciliates and fungi.

I know there's worms in my containers. Put them there, myself. And I still see them once in awhile.

My soils is mostly self-built, but I use Roots Organic mixes, once in awhile. My mixes are anything from 50/50 pine bark/compost mix, to more elaborate mixings of pine bark fines, ewc, coco, and vermiculite.

That is where you begin. Yes compost is very important to this process if you are jumping in with container growing. If you have time for some organic matter to degrade, then don't worry about the compost. Otherwise I agree [vermi]compost is the number one base for natural/organic growing.

I compost sargassum and rabbit manure. (I pick up the sargassum myself when it's still light colored, and nutrient laden, and the rabbits are mine - I control their diet)

I have grown in straight vermicompost and aged wood fines...tomatoes even.

Makes me think I'm really not that far off the path, then.

As far as mineralization goes, I used the cheapest thing at hand for my rock dust...free from the rock quarry/gravel yard. For drainage...multi-colored pea gravel. Heavy but works.

I live in a climate where drainage isn't a problem. Keeping water in is the hard part. But I also like to use aerated containers. I have some cloth, a few expensive air pots, and even more custom made burlap grow bags. I prefer the burlap over all others. Has given me my best results to date.

Who has the best tasting vegetables? The old lady down the road or the anal guy running off with his soil samples to Joe's lab?

Good question. I wouldn't know. I can only assume that is a rhetorical question, but I really can't answer it. I'm sure as hell not having a soil sample done to grow tomatoes, though.

 

[Cep]

Microbeman is correct that highly active soil biology is going to make whatever is in your soil more available to your plants. Castings are a good source but can get expensive. Inoculants are a cheaper option.

@Microbeman
What lab test is costing you $250? What benefit does it have over the standard testing procedures used globally? Weak acid, strong acid? Why is is hooey?

Soils can have excessive amounts of certain minerals and I promise you plants will have difficulty absorbing them if there is antagonism. The same can be said if something is lacking. Mineral amendments are cheap, add them to your soil at the appropriate rates and you won't regret it.

 

[Harry Palmer]

Microbeman is correct that highly active soil biology is going to make whatever is in your soil more available to your plants. Castings are a good source but can get expensive. Inoculants are a cheaper option.

I make my own castings. I've got as many as I can use right now. (generally have about 50-60 lbs at a time) There is one batch that I make outdoors, so as to get a few more strains of micro-organisms in there. Of course, one risks, pests, but I've not found them to be too difficult to deal with.

Soils can have excessive amounts of certain minerals and I promise you plants will have difficulty absorbing them if there is antagonism. The same can be said if something is lacking. Mineral amendments are cheap, add them to your soil at the appropriate rates and you won't regret it.

Can you give me some additional info on soil tesing - to whom I would need to send it, and whether or not the remedy is part of their plan, or if I can amend it myself? (in other words, does one have to buy into a program, or does one get back a diagnosis that can be incorporated with cheaply acquired components)

 

[Microbeman]

CEP: Certainly I'll share my opinion with you but bear in mind that very few people agree with me.

In natural growing-living soil one is dependent on sequestered nutrients which are not reliably revealed with the typical extraction acids used with Melhich laboratory techniques.

On top of this there seems to be a wide variation from lab to lab and many labs seem to have their own benchmark from which they garner information to advise clients. usually the clients follow the advice given and see improvement in the growth of plants or in subsequent test results. This then builds a sort of patriotism and loyalty to Joe's local lab and Joe is highly recommended.

In the case of conventional farming, the usual advice is to apply more N in spring and P in summer/fall along with micronutrients and of course results are observed.

In the case of organics, various organic amendments will be recommended, again with improvement observed (most of the time) thereby solidifying the patriotism.

I know of one entire organic farming community depending on testing done by an individual hanging out a lab shingle and carrying out tests using the same Melhich extraction soil and tissue testing kit ($2K) which I threw in the garbage after my pure drinking water showed high enough in P to fruit a million grape plants.

Every one of those farms (so far as I know) declared how great the 'lab' was and also declared ongoing loyalty.

I have been lead to believe by accredited labs that HPLC-MS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_chromatography–mass_spectrometry is the testing process which gives closer to genuine readings for potentially sequestered nutrients/metals due to the use of different extraction acids.

I cannot state anything with total conviction because I just do not know. I do know that (personally) for the most part I've given up on these types of soil/substance tests unless I'm checking for harmful compounds or for someone else who requires this.

 

[JVonChron]

there is always more than one way to skin a cat. I know of people that do the exact measurements and ratio thing with amendments/ferts and they have good results in their veggie gardens. and then I know a guy that lays out his garden out in a circle/pacman shape(so he can get to the center), and puts his compost pile in the middle in a smaller circle. when he waters he just comes out and sticks a hose in the compost pile and lets the water go through it and outward towards all the veggies. he has good results too but never does any testing or measuring or anything... I just put a square ft garden in for my grandpa and he had a cheap test kit that tested for soil PH, N-P-K. it was one with tubes you put soil in, and then mix with distilled water and put a little pill they give you with it for each n.p.k. you have to mix em and compare with a little color chart they give you so its not very precise but it will get you a general idea. it worked well for how cheap it was 20$ maybe? sure you could find one online cheaper.

 

[ct guy2]

With ground eggshell and gypsum all you're getting is calcium and some sulfur. The sulfur is important because you're using coco as your base media, I prefer peat but coco will work too. With the addition of calcium and sulfur you're not getting "mineralization" as you may want. Rock dusts will help, or seaweed or comfrey or borage. Anything that accumulates minerals/nutrients in its biomass.

If you're open to it, I highly suggest picking up a copy of The Intelligent Gardener by Steve Solomon or looking into the works of Albrecht, Reams, Tijdens, Astera, etc...

Quick answer is that it could be added to any soil mix, though I would go light on the calcium if topdressing. Most agricultural soil tests recommend calcium applications in the Fall after harvest or doing about half the needed calcium at the time of the test and the rest in the Fall.

 

[Cep]

Can you give me some additional info on soil tesing - to whom I would need to send it, and whether or not the remedy is part of their plan, or if I can amend it myself? (in other words, does one have to buy into a program, or does one get back a diagnosis that can be incorporated with cheaply acquired components)

No programs being bought. Agricultural testing labs are found pretty much anywhere where there is agriculture. Basically what you do is take a representative sample (multiple samples from whatever total amount of soil you're using) and submit 2 cups to a local lab. The tests they perform will vary. Commonly they will perform strong acids tests to calculate total cations but some still do weak acid tests to simulate whats closer to plant available nutrients. I pay 30$ for a test and it tells me how much Calcium or Nitrogen I need to resupply.

CEP: Certainly I'll share my opinion with you but bear in mind that very few people agree with me.

I respect your opinion, which is why I'm asking questions

In natural growing-living soil one is dependent on sequestered nutrients which are not reliably revealed with the typical extraction acids used with Melhich laboratory techniques.

Agreed on laboratory tech not being able to determine what is precisely available to the plant.

On top of this there seems to be a wide variation from lab to lab and many labs seem to have their own benchmark from which they garner information to advise clients. usually the clients follow the advice given and see improvement in the growth of plants or in subsequent test results. This then builds a sort of patriotism and loyalty to Joe's local lab and Joe is highly recommended.

Sometimes. My choice in lab service has a lot to do with their proximity and being able to personally drop samples off, but the guy that runs it is extremely knowledgeable and will discuss things in depth. They also have good turnover for results. I'm aware of the variation in benchmarks but I have numbers in my head that I'm aiming for based on my plants not being 3 foot tomatoes.

In the case of conventional farming, the usual advice is to apply more N in spring and P in summer/fall along with micronutrients and of course results are observed.

In the case of organics, various organic amendments will be recommended, again with improvement observed (most of the time) thereby solidifying the patriotism.

I know of one entire organic farming community depending on testing done by an individual hanging out a lab shingle and carrying out tests using the same Melhich extraction soil and tissue testing kit ($2K) which I threw in the garbage after my pure drinking water showed high enough in P to fruit a million grape plants.

What was your original P source(s)?

Every one of those farms (so far as I know) declared how great the 'lab' was and also declared ongoing loyalty.

I have been lead to believe by accredited labs that HPLC-MS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_chromatography–mass_spectrometry is the testing process which gives closer to genuine readings for potentially sequestered nutrients/metals due to the use of different extraction acids.

I've never submitted anything for HPLC testing. I'd imagine it would be more expensive and I test several times a year. My bill would get steep.

I cannot state anything with total conviction because I just do not know. I do know that (personally) for the most part I've given up on these types of soil/substance tests unless I'm checking for harmful compounds or for someone else who requires this.

I think they best of both worlds is possible. I focus on getting the Albrecht ratios in order first because it often just involves adding a bag of lime to a raised bed. Building soil organic matter is also a goal. I'm trying to do both. I have also seen soils in my area sold by landscaping companies that have unbalanced numbers yet are super rich (compost, casting, etc.). These soils grow big, better than average plants, but there is always a Calcium deficiency. If I had to guess, this isn't happening because the micro herd isn't kicking, it happening because the minerals are unbalanced.

 

[xmobotx]

it's worth it to make note of the fact that conducting a soil test will not be the end of the educational/evaluative process when it comes to soil building. For me, it was another step along the way & represents something of a way to quantify things and possible assess deficiencies in the soil. Moreover, the goal here is not to become effective at flowering out a few plants but to fine tune/hone that process {such as some might consider "dialing in"}

Sure, if a mix/recipe is absolutely failing; the soil test can clarify things and avoid further confusion. but, my point is that soil testing may not be a 1st step towards getting early results & it isn't a final plateau of gardening greatness. ~it's something of a "step along the path"

 

[milkyjoe]

What some of the bigger, better consultants do is combine soil tests with sap analysis or tissue testing. Once you run enough tests one can see correlations between what the soil had in it and what the plant took up. If you set up a database you can then use statistical software to look for those correlations.

I like these guys http://www.novacropcontrol.nl/en. They are not selling nutes so they dont have the conflict many consultants do. There are some articles in both the downloads and news sections.

Still, absolutely no question in my mind that doing everything you can to develop diverse microbiology is key to really healthy plants.

 

[Photosynthesis]

Something to keep in mind with soil tests and the recommendations based from them is that those recommendations are typically for field crops. I have yet to find a lab, agronomists, scientists, etc. that has specific requirements for the growing of cannabis.

I spoke with John Frank from International Ag Labs, and he did not even have any specific requirements for the growth of cannabis. He has been working on something, but it has yet to be tested.

So people on here can hold the soil test as the holy grail of cannabis growing, but until we have Albrecht/ Reems style recommendations that have been thoroughly tested on cannabis it is but only one single tool in the belt of the grower.

 

[Harry Palmer]

This has certainly developed into a very interesting discussion, despite the early distractions. Thanks to all who have stuck with it, and given input. I'm going to try to find a lab in my area that can give me my first soil test. If/when that happens, I'll post it for evaluation. Maybe some of you can help me dial in on some specifics.

By all means, keep this discussion going.

Since it pertains to the conversation at hand, I'll throw out what I'm using as my preferred soil mix at the time. It took me a long time to get it right, but this is what works REALLY well for me:

50% pine bark fines
25% coco peat
15% EWC
10% vermiculite

I like that mix, because it consistently gives me good results, recycles well, and is so cheap to put together. (everything can easily be bought in bulk)

I've had hit or miss results with pine bark fines mixed with compost/vermicompost, mixed at a ration of 60%-40%. Some plants really love it, others have given up the ghost in it.

I'll send in a sample of this mix that's been cooking for about a month, when I locate my lab.

 

[milkyjoe]

I highly suggest logan lab. 25 bucks and you get results in about a week. They understand albrecht...noy all labs do.

 

[rasputin]

I missed this reply earlier. Thanks for taking the time.

So, in general, any dusts - whether they be trace elements or base cations - can be added as a top dress? I mean, maybe it's a silly question, but I've been doing it for years, I don't really know any better.

I use vermicompost, which is another subject I have yet to breach on an internet forum. Is there as much debate about compost vs EWC as there is Albrecht vs Rodale?

Yes, they can be top dressed.

EWC is generally the superior amendment. Not quite as much debate on that one.

 

[trichrider]

my simple soil test is smelling the soil*
smells distinctive and is unforgettable.
learned operating shovels.

are you guys suggesting a soil test for your 'built' soilless mix?

i'm sure I've seen calculators for providing nutrient profiles to somewhat sterile or otherwise depleted media.

I've always attempted to balance npk evenly by using fishbone meal, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, soft rock phosphate and leonardite for humic/folic long term.
ewc and compost, among the 37 other ingredients. but that's just me.

Leonardite is a soft waxy, black or brown, shiny, vitreous mineraloid that is easily soluble in alkaline solutions. It is an oxidation product of lignite, associated with near-surface mining.[1] It is a rich source of humic acid (up to 90%)[2] and is used as a soil conditioner, as a stabilizer for ion-exchange resins in water treatment,[3] in the remediation of polluted environments and as a drilling additive.[4] It was named after A. G. Leonard, first director of the North Dakota Geological Survey, in recognition of his work on these deposits.[5]

Rule 31: It is important to remember magnesium is the enemy of nitrogen. Every pound of magnesium available in soil chemistry will release one pound of nitrogen. Which is why dolomite ( ~35% magnesium carbonate & limestone) is not used as a soil amendment. Magnesium is sometimes used to reduce the amount of nitrogen in and around the plants, otherwise with properly functioning soil the plants can get all the magnesium they need without any help.

 

[Harry Palmer]

i'm sure I've seen calculators for providing nutrient profiles to somewhat sterile or otherwise depleted media.

I'd be intersted in a little experimentation... If you could find those resources again, that would be fun weekend project.