Inside Out Trees, Silo Op, custom RDWC, water cooled

[sahdgrower]

So I am working up my new design in my mind as my girls flower. I have about 5 or 6 more weeks to figure it out. What I am currently thinking is a series of flat panels using hog panels 5'x16' w/ 4"x4" grid. I will cut them down and mount each one to the top of a 5 gallon bucket (or possibly a different container if I find one better). Each bucket will have its own set of wheels and I will configure the buckets in a geometric shape yet to be determined but I am thinking hexagon. I am currently into the RDWC so I will have to make each bucket easily detacheable from the rest. The purpose for me is so that I can have each plant modular. This will allow me to veg them on their screens and then roll them into the flower room. Also I will be able to tend each plant from front and back more easily, and third I could wheel it out of my flower room to tend so I could get out of the blinding light. I will post up some pics on my design once I get it on paper or mocked up. What do you think though?

 

[Ttystikk]

So I am working up my new design in my mind as my girls flower. I have about 5 or 6 more weeks to figure it out. What I am currently thinking is a series of flat panels using hog panels 5'x16' w/ 4"x4" grid. I will cut them down and mount each one to the top of a 5 gallon bucket (or possibly a different container if I find one better). Each bucket will have its own set of wheels and I will configure the buckets in a geometric shape yet to be determined but I am thinking hexagon. I am currently into the RDWC so I will have to make each bucket easily detacheable from the rest. The purpose for me is so that I can have each plant modular. This will allow me to veg them on their screens and then roll them into the flower room. Also I will be able to tend each plant from front and back more easily, and third I could wheel it out of my flower room to tend so I could get out of the blinding light. I will post up some pics on my design once I get it on paper or mocked up. What do you think though?

For me, hog panels and concrete panels were to rigid and bulky. 2" x 4" x 50' rolled mesh fence from Home dePot is cheaper, easier to work with.

I find that the silo really depends on all its pieces being bound together for strength and to hold its shape. Multiple separate bits might be a pain.

I chose a circular shape to ensure that as much of the silo as possible is at the same distance from the bulb. I did the math and found that between the shoot on the trellis directly adjacent to the bulb and one at the bottom edge is already over 50% difference in intensity.

I do not veg my girls on my trellis. I veg them together, in a separate area in a tent with overhead lighting. Why? So my girls grow tall to fill out the trellis! I find they don't grow as tall when they hit the trellis, although they do fill out. There is a time for that; 'bloom', lol

I carry my veg girls into the bloom room and put them in place. They never move again, so there is no need for a cart. At harvest they come out in pieces anyway, and now I don't have to knock my trellis down and put it back up every cycle. Maybe in a warehouse with hundreds of silos... but not at your house.

 

[Ttystikk]

@sahdgrower, you know what? Just because I defended how I made my choices as I did above means that... I made some choices.

Just because what I do works for me (at the moment, I'm always upgrading something!) doesn't mean that your idea couldn't be better. The more I think about it, the more I think you may have something.

Those quick disconnect fittings are gonna be some pricey little fuckers, unless you plan to drain the entire system every time you want to move them, ie, moving them all at once or not at all.

Today's personal experience would seem to argue against limiting oneself like that; I noticed that the biggest plant in my vertical run got stem rot, 'elephant's foot', and wilted at seven weeks out of eight. GRRRR- but the entire plant came out, in pieces, roots and all without disrupting any of the rest of the plants. She's a sweet smelling, thick and productive girl, too, she's made some admirable nugs and a TON of hash material. Powerful aromas of citrus, mango and sweetness... I'm still going to dry and weigh her to get a baseline idea of yield, and I'll let y'all know. With what I've seen so far, I'll be running her again!

 

[Ttystikk]

Veg Stages

Veg Stages

Like I said I haven't read through but, I can imagine the veg time needed unless you have a huge clone ready to go once you clip this one.

~mr .gt

I'm still working on my veg system, it needs tweaking yet;
Stage zero; fresh clones
Bullpen; rooters and moms
Stage One; a group assembled from Bullpen stock to move through production
Two; into the 4' x 8' veg tent under a 130W LED
Three; next to stage 2 in the tent, under 400W HPS
Four; the other half of the tent, under 1kW MH

They stay in each stage two weeks and move on in lockstep. Each stage is open to the rest in the tent, so there is plenty of beneficial cross lighting. There is one RDWC that services all three veg stages in the tent.

The plants are intentionally kept together somewhat, close but not quite crowding, in order to encourage upward growth to occur as vigorously as possible. Plenty of lateral branches still develop, which will spread around the curving sides of the trellis in a big 'bear hug' around the hanging bare bulb in the center.

By the time they head towards a silo, they're as close to four feet tall as I dare let them get. They're spread out as widely as possible, vine clipped to the trellis to hold them in place and trimmed to remove overgrowth and crowding.

I've tried to take pics, but they just show an overgrown mess- which is of course the whole point! In spite of all this, my plants are not quite filling their trellis yet. Hence, more tweaking...

 

[Ttystikk]

So I'm working on the next iteration of this. Instead of two trellis panels- size is always the same, modular style, at 4' x 6.25'- this time there will be four, arranged vertically, height of 6'3". Diameter works out to 5'1", so the plants will start 30"from the bulb. Four 25 ft² panels makes 100 ft², so I'm going to hang two thouies in there, one over the other along the centerline of the silo. I'm hoping it won't get too hot in there but even so, I'm working on a light mover.

This upright orientation of panels just might be the answer, as the plants want to grow up more than across. It will still be the same square footage trellis for the same single plant, but this at least appears be a much more comfy fit. As branches grow off the edge of the trellis, they'll get topped to encourage secondary nodes to swell along them, thus more evenly and completely filling out the trellis. So much for theory, let's see how she runs, eh?

 

[sahdgrower]

@sahdgrower, you know what? Just because I defended how I made my choices as I did above means that... I made some choices.

Just because what I do works for me (at the moment, I'm always upgrading something!) doesn't mean that your idea couldn't be better. The more I think about it, the more I think you may have something.

Those quick disconnect fittings are gonna be some pricey little fuckers, unless you plan to drain the entire system every time you want to move them, ie, moving them all at once or not at all.


I hear ya about choices. It is always a balancing act between something, cost, weight, size, ease of use etc. I think I have hit on an idea that is good for me and I am comfortable working with the materials I have selected. I know their strengths and weaknesses. I agree the hog panel is tough to work with. I just like the size of the holes and the durability. I am working on some sketches I will post in a day or two.

Funny thing, while searching the internet to put together all my crazy ideas I keep running into posts you have on other sites that directly pertain to what I am thinking of. I think you will like what I do in the end. I am really excited about my new design.

 

[Ttystikk]

@sahdgrower, you know what? Just because I defended how I made my choices as I did above means that... I made some choices.

Just because what I do works for me (at the moment, I'm always upgrading something!) doesn't mean that your idea couldn't be better. The more I think about it, the more I think you may have something.

Those quick disconnect fittings are gonna be some pricey little fuckers, unless you plan to drain the entire system every time you want to move them, ie, moving them all at once or not at all.


I hear ya about choices. It is always a balancing act between something, cost, weight, size, ease of use etc. I think I have hit on an idea that is good for me and I am comfortable working with the materials I have selected. I know their strengths and weaknesses. I agree the hog panel is tough to work with. I just like the size of the holes and the durability. I am working on some sketches I will post in a day or two.

Funny thing, while searching the internet to put together all my crazy ideas I keep running into posts you have on other sites that directly pertain to what I am thinking of. I think you will like what I do in the end. I am really excited about my new design.

So just ask me.

 

[420ish]

how do you collect the condensation from the air handler?

 

[sahdgrower]

So just ask me.

Well the issue I know the least about, that I need the most advice on is the cooling. My grow is in a basement and temps stay pretty low. However since I am running RDWC I would like to capitalize on the fact that I am in a basement. What I would like to do is dig a big hole in the middle of the basement, line it watertight and fill with 300-500 gallons of water which should stay a pretty constant cool temp. Then I want to run a few hundred feet of coiled water line and submerge in this tank. Then recirc my RDWC through this line to keep it coool. Seems straight forward enough but I imagine I could do a lot more using heat exchange technology to use this for cooling of my grow room (which I will need to do if I add more lights which I want to do) and maybe even my whole house. I am able to research this all and figure it out but if someone could just tell me what I should do I am all ears.

 

[2 Legal Co]

sahdgrower

I'm not terribly sure you 'need' the water tank at all.

You might want to do some reading on Geothermal Wells,,,, vertical and horizontal installations... If you have room

The water storage may be desirable. If so you certainly can do it, but it looks like the cooling function will be limited by the area of dirt that touches the tank. If you get enough rain to do a catchment from your roof areas, the tankage could be magical as a cistern for storing that water, as well. Forget RO water and just use rain water?

That said several smaller tanks/barrels might be more efficient for thermal transfer, because of the increased surface area of the smaller tankage as well as the larger mass of earth to drop heat into.

Ttystikk:
Please excuse this brief hi-jack.

Good thread.

 

[Ttystikk]

how do you collect the condensation from the air handler?

In one pic above, you can see my green 8" muffin fan at the top of the air handling stack, pushing hot air down through the Icebox. This is where the water condenses, and it rains down the length of rigid duct, into a cut down 5 gallon bucket with a bunch of holes drilled in the bottom which is sitting on a control bucket for the hydro system- and back from whence it came. Top ups are all but a thing of the past, as long as the room is well sealed and the moisture stays in it.

 

[Ttystikk]

Well the issue I know the least about, that I need the most advice on is the cooling. My grow is in a basement and temps stay pretty low. However since I am running RDWC I would like to capitalize on the fact that I am in a basement. What I would like to do is dig a big hole in the middle of the basement, line it watertight and fill with 300-500 gallons of water which should stay a pretty constant cool temp. Then I want to run a few hundred feet of coiled water line and submerge in this tank. Then recirc my RDWC through this line to keep it coool. Seems straight forward enough but I imagine I could do a lot more using heat exchange technology to use this for cooling of my grow room (which I will need to do if I add more lights which I want to do) and maybe even my whole house. I am able to research this all and figure it out but if someone could just tell me what I should do I am all ears.

The single best way to capitalize on cool basement ground is to simply place your RDWC tubs directly on that ground, then insulate them from the heat of the lights and warm air as much as possible. You're trying to take advantage of a concept known as 'thermal gradient', where there is a warm spot and a cool spot and the theory is they'll even each other out. This is fine, except that growers need to take into account how quickly the heat will transfer because we are playing with several thousand BTu per bulb. It doesn't take much of that to overwhelm the speed at which heat can be shed through a thermal gradient surface.

And that's the problem. It's the same problem with a water tank in the floor of the basement; it's only going to pull so much heat. Stay under that load by insulating buckets, etc, and you're golden. Exceed it- at all- and temps begin to rise.

Burying storage tanks is an option explored by several of my friends. The limitations are exactly the same, plus two; the insulating value of the tank itself, and whether that tank is strong enough to be buried in the first place. These two work against each other (of course! Why make it easy?! LOL) in that thicker walls stand up better- and insulate better, too!

My chiller really does two things at once. One, it pulls heat from the water at a string and consistent rate- obvious enough- and two, it concentrates that heat enough for it to heat my house- WITHOUT additional plumbing or ductwork. The first is already plenty efficient; the second part is a bonus that's paid for the unit all by itself over the last three winters, just by moving the heat upstairs and warming the house- and saving me a couple hundred bucks in gas bills every month all winter. The house is a constant heat sink in winter- and anytime it isn't, just blow the hot air outside. The difference isn't ultimate capacity as much as it is throughput, or the ability to move a lot of heat at a time instead of a trickle.

Another example; I'm planning a warm water aquaponics tank outdoors. Since the water needs to stay around 82f for best fish growth, I'll be adding quite a bit of heat in the winter- and likely none for much of the summer, requiring me to find other places to send it.

I hope that helps. If it doesn't, I'm sorry and I will keep trying!

 

[Ttystikk]

sahdgrower

I'm not terribly sure you 'need' the water tank at all.

You might want to do some reading on Geothermal Wells,,,, vertical and horizontal installations... If you have room

The water storage may be desirable. If so you certainly can do it, but it looks like the cooling function will be limited by the area of dirt that touches the tank. If you get enough rain to do a catchment from your roof areas, the tankage could be magical as a cistern for storing that water, as well. Forget RO water and just use rain water?

That said several smaller tanks/barrels might be more efficient for thermal transfer, because of the increased surface area of the smaller tankage as well as the larger mass of earth to drop heat into.

Ttystikk:
Please excuse this brief hi-jack.

Good thread.

Not at all- on topic, helpful info, additional idea of using tank for cistern... yeah, keep jacking my thread like that and I'll give ya a medal!

 

[sahdgrower]

Shit I hope my manners aren't as foul as my mouth! Really not trying to hijack, just that Ttystikk seems to think just like me, only he is ahead of me with experience. I find that intelligent discussion on a topic with someone somewhat ignorant to the subject can be very enlightening. I stress the need for intelligence but I find that often new eyes on a subject frequently results in ingenious innovation. I really hope that this doesn't come off smarmy but I have noticed an incredible lack of real clever innovation in this community, there are a few, a very few who really get it and strive to improve. Then there are the masses satisfied to pour snake oil all over their plants and poison the shit out of em any sign of disease or pest with no regard as to why they are sick or what toxic crap they are dealing to their clients. It is really that aspect that has driven me to grow my own. I have no idea what the hell people are doing. I grew indoors 20 years ago as a teenager. It seems that there are a few improvements since then but over all not that many people doing things that much different. Vertical growing is new to me and shockingly the guys in my hydro store were a little befuddled when I wanted just a bare bulb and base with no reflector. Sorry I rant.

Ttystikk let me know if you want me to stfu and butt out and erase my posts. Otherwise I am super happy to jump all over your threads.

P.S. I one day hope to grow outdoor pot trees in a hot tub (Free on Craigslist) with fish in it.

 

[Ttystikk]

Sahdgrower, you had me laughing so hard I about pissed myself, you are SOOOO right about these idiots 'pouring snake oil all over their plants', ROTF LMFAO!!

FUCK! Okay, I'm better now...

I've found that what passes for 'innovation' in this industry is actually almost totally advertising driven. Vertical growing means you don't need to use a bunch of the shit the hydro store has to sell, so if course they'll act befuddled; they want you to shut up and buy a Raptor- and the ducting and the cooling fan and and and... And do not get me started on water bottled nutes!

It is also true that 'Big Ag' has also been asleep when it comes to physical innovations. They've been stuck on GMO and Biotech bullshit for so long, they're believing their own hype about how it makes growing skills and equipment/technique innovations obsolete.

There is innovative stuff going on out there, but it takes an education (formal or otherwise, I have no family background in farming or formal education in agriculture) to recognize it and patience to find it.

Shining example... from WYOMING?! Believe it;
http://www.brightagrotech.com/Technology.html

Sure as hell, vertical technology works in sunlight, too- how 'bout that? Trees have only known this for what- 500 million years now? LOL You should see some of the conversations I've had with administrators on various forums about setting up a vertical growing section. It's as if I'm fucking Martian or something... But growing rockturds under LED? OH YEAH, give THEM anything they want!

The free hot tub with fish in it is already in my plans. I'll even leave the jetpump installed, so it can act like a heat sink while it oxygenates the Fuck outta them fishies! My own concept calls for bringing the water inside to feed my vertical girls, then sending back to the tank. My concern about doing the whole thing outdoors is the water in the tub getting too hot- at least, until the tree you're growing in it gets tall enough to shade the whole works by itself!

 

[2 Legal Co]

I must admit, the cistern idea was not mine. I've been watching too many 'Earthship' vids on youtube. They all seem to have at least one.

It's amazing how many areas of endeavor 'thermal efficiency' really counts. Our efforts to get better, and more each harvest, are easily stymied if that efficiency is not kept first and foremost.

Damned expensive in more ways than one if you don't pay attention.

By the way: I like the 'all in one' aquaculture idea.

 

[Ttystikk]

So, update time. Yeah, I'm soooo bummed the Magic Merlin crashed and burned, but it's going to make for some happy hash makers! Meanwhile, the rest of the room looks great- all five are ripening and thickening, some are looking more like monster chunks against an open mesh, others more like a lumpy, curving green flying carpet o' buds, lol- yeah, that would be the Blue Dream!

So while the Magic Merlin was in trouble, she threw stress nanners- and they seeded. So, the room could be seed weed, which would piss me off, indeed! Oh well, move forward. The ultimate cause of this was poor design of the RDWC hoses in this room. Since this was my first multi group tubsite setup, I thought I could get away with one hose back to the control bucket from each pair of tubs. This turned out badly, so the rule is always two or more, to thwart clogs.

In this case, the clog backed up the water in the tub, it overfilled and drowned the stem, causing the stem to rot. It wasn't bad luck, and tracing all the way back to root causes teaches lessons that lead to continual improvement.

On to happier subjects! With some help and more wrestling, I completed my first four trellis Super Silo; this one stands six feet above the tubsites, about five feet in diameter, has four tubsites and presents 100 ft² to two thouies, one hung from the ceiling and the other standing on a tripod in the middle. So, this one is two feet taller and one foot wider than the two plant, 50 ft² silo. In other words, double the interior growing space, complete with double the watts to light it- but not double the footprint. INTERESTING!

I bought a big fan to blow upwards through the center, to bring cool air from floor level and blow it upwards to both move heat from the bulbs out of the canopy, and provide a breeze on the plants. If this isn't sufficient, I'll add an 8" duct inlet collar on a 90 degree angle- and SUCK the heat from directly above the bulbs and stuff it right through the Icebox exchanger! This would be in addition to the first fan blowing from beneath.

I'm skipping the light mover for the moment because I want the thing up and running. If I can retrofit during the run I will- or just wait. With two bulbs, the light distribution pattern is going to be much better than with just one in any case. I'm lining the ceiling with Mylar, and beneath, covering the area around the sides of the fan and tripod beneath, I'm using more rigid reflective insulation board.

So, top and bottom will be covered in reflective materials and of course all the walls are directly in range, and 30" from a bare bulb. I'm thinkin' it's gotta be a nice place for some girls to hang out and do some personal growth... Might be nice for plants, too. LOL

I have a trophy crew in the veg tent bursting out of every seam- and growing directly into the MH thouie in the adjust-a-wing! High time to get them into their places! Tomorrow, the leak test will be finished- already went around it twice tonight, sometimes a drip is just slooow, lol

 

[Ttystikk]

Delayed but not denied, the Super Silo has officially been launched! The clock has begun, the girls are in place, let's see what's she does!

For those who've come lately, my Super Silo is four trellis panels that are each four feet wide and six feet tall, all joined at their sides into a cylinder five feet in diameter, with two thouies vertically in the middle. That's 100 ft² if growing space. It's looking pretty exciting already!

 

[Ttystikk]

Today's event is that things are uneventful. Ticking along, minding their own business, I just add water now and again, maybe a lil acid to bring down pH. I wish I had more to talk about. Trellising; nothing new here, except maybe the lack of sore shoulders and a backache from bending across a wide ScrOG screen.

The biggest problem in the whole place is that the girls need a bit more time on a trellis to properly fill it in in order to maximize yield.

 

[d3cryption]

Damn double stacked 1ks ? Gonna be a good harvest..