big plant ppk

[flat9]

Yes, I'm reading from the beginning, although there seems to be some missing spots. Thanks for the quick heads up.

I do a similar airless RDWC, I just let a 1/2" line waterfall into each site, churning the water's surface. Would it be better if I were to run it through the hydroton instead?

Waterfall works, and feeding in through the hydroton works too. I cannot say which is better, but I'd imagine the more the water gets disturbed as it recirculates, the better. Both seem sufficient...

... on rollitup I think someone had actually purchased a dissolved oxygen meter and done some testing if I recall correctly...

 

[flat9]

Flat9 pretty well summed it up. Comparable growth rates to RDWC without needing all the bells and whistles to keep the nasties at bay. The other advantages being the design allows you adjust the moisture content of your chosen media via the air gap (removes the perched water table resulting in more prolific rooting). Then maintains that specific level automatically (as long as your reservoir lasts) without any power inputs required (wick fed hydro). The regular flood/drain cycles keep your media rich with oxygen while maintaining consistent ph and EC. That combined with removing the perched water table results in explosive root growth, which leads to big fuckin' plants that grow big fuckin' nugs

Speaking of which Mister_D, how exactly does one "optimize" the air gap? What are the parameters and what am I aiming for? Never really understood this...

 

[Ttystikk]

I do run my one circulation pump 24/7, but it's the only one running. No air pump system, just a manifold feeding 1/2" lines to each tub, the 'nozzle' is simply a 1/2" elbow fitting sticking through a hole in the lid, held in place by the light cover on top of it. The pump either draws from or delivers to the bucket with the chiller coil, thus maintaining temperature. If power fails of course everything stops and the plants will be okay for up to 24 hours.

 

[Ttystikk]

Waterfall works, and feeding in through the hydroton works too. I cannot say which is better, but I'd imagine the more the water gets disturbed as it recirculates, the better. Both seem sufficient...

... on rollitup I think someone had actually purchased a dissolved oxygen meter and done some testing if I recall correctly...

I made my choice specifically to promote churn, agitation and water currents beneath the surface to help deliver more nutrients to the roots.

I'm thinking that a big air diffusion pad under the rootball could be helpful- not from an oxygenation standpoint, but more simply for moving water past the roots, helping them take up nutrients even more efficiently. IDK, just guessing out loud here? I'm not happy with my own roots, so I'm hunting for tools.

 

[Mister_D]

'perched water table' meaning the water left in the tub after it drains?

Exactly

 

[catman]

I made my choice specifically to promote churn, agitation and water currents beneath the surface to help deliver more nutrients to the roots.

How exactly does that help deliver more nutrients to the roots?

I'm not sure why it wouldn't, but I have read this..

GROWING IN A SOIL (or SOILLESS) ENVIRONMENT vs. HYDROPONIC:


Our best seller and most well know formula for home and hobbyist growers, Jack’s 20-20-20, is best suited for roots grown in soil or soilless mix. In a soil environment, the nitrogen forms in 20-20-20 can be easily taken up and converted to the nitrogen forms that the plants use best. In a true hydroponic system (water flowing environment), these nitrogen conversions do not occur easily, and some forms of nitrogen, (like urea and ammonium) can sit in the root zone a bit too long when certain low light or low temperature conditions arise.

When this happens, these slow to change forms of nitrogen act as a great source of food for other things like algae, bacteria and microorganisms, causing a build-up of these materials in your hydroponic environment. This creates a real mess and greatly reduces the effectiveness of the nutrients in solution.

For a true hydroponic system it is NOT advised to grow with a typical 20-20-20, however, this formula is very well suited for any indoor or outdoor system that uses a soilless or soil containing media.

 

[Mister_D]

Speaking of which Mister_D, how exactly does one "optimize" the air gap? What are the parameters and what am I aiming for? Never really understood this...

You optimize the air gap by adjusting how large or small it is. Basically it works like this, you use the float valve in you pulse reservoir to adjust the water level up or down in the lower buckets. By lowering the water level you lower the concentration of water in the upper pot (where the roots are). If you raise the water in the lower buckets, you also raise the water concentration in the media. This is merely a function of moving the perched water table up or down. What you are aiming for is to maximize the oxygen to water ratio in your particular media (right in the middle of just watered and needs watered). You'll know you got it right when your plants are growing inches per day. For turface and floor-dry ~3" seems to be ideal. I'm finding with coco due to it's greater wicking abilities, a 4-5" gap is working better. That's really a brilliant part of the design, makes it easy to customize to various medias/growers preference.

 

[flat9]

Yeah I knew that I can dial in the level w/ the float valve but didn't know what to aim for in terms of the air gap and what that really does. I think I'll try to keep this about 3".

To be honest I think since we pulse feed every 90 minutes or so, how much effect does the air gap really have? My 8822 always feels damp, which I presumed is ideal.

Yeah, coco is excellent in terms of wicking ability for sure. I think farmari isn't even top feeding it -- just wicking from his tailpieces...

 

[flat9]

I made my choice specifically to promote churn, agitation and water currents beneath the surface to help deliver more nutrients to the roots.

I'm thinking that a big air diffusion pad under the rootball could be helpful- not from an oxygenation standpoint, but more simply for moving water past the roots, helping them take up nutrients even more efficiently. IDK, just guessing out loud here? I'm not happy with my own roots, so I'm hunting for tools.

Take a look at "Heath's latest tree grow" thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181239

There's a pretty good discussion about developing roots in there. According to Heath, he has had great luck letting the water fall over the hydroton as a means of oxygenating the water, though he also says just shooting it (with some drop as in a waterfall) works too. Another important thing though is he doesn't need to run chillers because he keeps his temps low. Lower temp waters can hold more oxygen. At the very least, take one look at those trees and convince yourself that the air diffusers are unnecessary...

... or just getting back to this topic, build a ppk and forget all of the above. Literally, you can get results on par with the best dwc systems and save a few hundred watts (chillers, water pumps, air pumps on 24/7) in the process.

 

[Mister_D]

Yeah I knew that I can dial in the level w/ the float valve but didn't know what to aim for in terms of the air gap and what that really does. I think I'll try to keep this about 3".

It's very difficult to put into words what the perfect moisture level is. You can always experiment by turning off the top feed, and lowering the water level daily until you see a decline in growth speed. Then you simply set at the ideal level and turn the top feed back on. 3" is ideal for turface/floor dry according to d9, so I'm sure you're good there.

To be honest I think since we pulse feed every 90 minutes or so, how much effect does the air gap really have? My 8822 always feels damp, which I presumed is ideal.

The air gap is very important. It removes the excess water from each flood cycle (perched water table, google it) so the entire pot stays at the ideal water/air ratio. Ever notice when hand watering how a pot may be dry on the surface, but have a good amount of water lower in the pot? That water in the lower part of the pot is the perched water table. It tends to stifle root growth in that area as the oxygen/water ratio is out of balance. By removing that excess water, roots grow much healthier in that area of the pot effectively increasing your usable media for a given pot size. As well as the other benefits that stem from a larger root mass

Yeah, coco is excellent in terms of wicking ability for sure. I think farmari isn't even top feeding it -- just wicking from his tailpieces...

I think he's doing once per week top feeds by hand to control salt build up, but aside from that just the wicks keeping things watered. Obviously working well for him

 

[Ttystikk]

How exactly does that help deliver more nutrients to the roots?

I'm not sure why it wouldn't, but I have read this..

Nice to meet you, Catman!

The idea is that physical floor of water last the root tendrils themselves helps maximize the immediate availability of nutrient to the plant, as opposed to a relatively still body of water the roots dangle in. Like I said, when I have a little extra time on my hands (!!) I'll run a head to head and see what I get. OUR, if someone has some insight here so I can just implement best practice and keep focusing on my own goals.

Your quote about Jacks 20-20-20 is well taken, and in fact that's not a mix I would recommend for hydroponic ganja.

I prefer a two part Jacks mix of 5-12-26 Jacks Professional Hydroponic w/ micros, plus the recommended seeing part of calcium nitrate. Having these two separate allows for easy manipulation of the partial concentration of N in solution. I add a bit of epsom salt to this, plus a skôsh of MKP during peak bloom. OGBiowar for happy roots. Adjust pH and serve mildly chilled...

 

[Ichabod Crane]

A side note on the perched water table that the perched water table it according to the smallest particle size. Simply stated if you add larger stones to the bottom you move the water table up in the pot. This is because the smaller media is where the perched water table will be.

With the PPK this will negate the wick and the air gap by moving the water table into the bucket.

 

[Ttystikk]

Take a look at "Heath's latest tree grow" thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181239

There's a pretty good discussion about developing roots in there. According to Heath, he has had great luck letting the water fall over the hydroton as a means of oxygenating the water, though he also says just shooting it (with some drop as in a waterfall) works too. Another important thing though is he doesn't need to run chillers because he keeps his temps low. Lower temp waters can hold more oxygen. At the very least, take one look at those trees and convince yourself that the air diffusers are unnecessary...

... or just getting back to this topic, build a ppk and forget all of the above. Literally, you can get results on par with the best dwc systems and save a few hundred watts (chillers, water pumps, air pumps on 24/7) in the process.

Thanks for the reading material! I'm not convinced the diffusers are needed either, I have several runs now with this and things work well with the waterfalls.

I'm here to learn about PPK, if it works this well I see no reason not to try it!

 

[flat9]

The air gap is very important. It removes the excess water from each flood cycle (perched water table, google it) so the entire pot stays at the ideal water/air ratio. Ever notice when hand watering how a pot may be dry on the surface, but have a good amount of water lower in the pot? That water in the lower part of the pot is the perched water table. It tends to stifle root growth in that area as the oxygen/water ratio is out of balance. By removing that excess water, roots grow much healthier in that area of the pot effectively increasing your usable media for a given pot size. As well as the other benefits that stem from a larger root mass

So the tailpiece being connected the res below w/ an air gap necessitates that the perched water table doesn't develop? My point was wouldn't it be sufficient to just have the tailpipe without the res (i.e., just to have a drain hole of some sort)? Of course if you have a power/pump failure this will be a problem in that you don't have the wick as a backup, but my point was that how much of the growth is really due to the wicking itself as opposed to the flood & drain? I get that you effectively create the perched water table in the bucket, but wouldn't just draining the media be sufficient?

 

[Mister_D]

So the tailpiece being connected the res below w/ an air gap necessitates that the perched water table doesn't develop? My point was wouldn't it be sufficient to just have the tailpipe without the res (i.e., just to have a drain hole of some sort)? Of course if you have a power/pump failure this will be a problem in that you don't have the wick as a backup, but my point was that how much of the growth is really due to the wicking itself as opposed to the flood & drain? I get that you effectively create the perched water table in the bucket, but wouldn't just draining the media be sufficient?

I could have worded my last reply better. The perched water table still develops, just that it is moved down into the pipe so it isn't effecting the root mass (i.e it's removed from the upper pot). Not entirely sure if it would still work effectively with such a large air gap, as that is what creates the vacuum effect that removes the PWT from the upper pot. If it still lowers the PWT out of the pot (thinking it probably will, would just remove more than the ideal amount of moisture. Not a real issue with regular top feeds to replenish), and into the pipe, then yes it would work without the added backup of a wick. However the growth in this system is a function of the sum of all parts being greater than the individual components on their own. It's not the wick that is feeding your plants in this system (unless the power is out), it's main benefit is lowering the PWT so your roots can grow better/faster/stronger as a result of having a consistent moisture/oxygen level in both the upper and lower sections of the root zone. It is this removal function that allows us to feed so often without succumbing to over watering. What you describe would work well to grow plants, but I doubt you'd achieve the same growth rates as the PPK properly setup.

 

[Snook]

So the tailpiece being connected the res below w/ an air gap necessitates that the perched water table doesn't develop? My point was wouldn't it be sufficient to just have the tailpipe without the res (i.e., just to have a drain hole of some sort)? Of course if you have a power/pump failure this will be a problem in that you don't have the wick as a backup, but my point was that how much of the growth is really due to the wicking itself as opposed to the flood & drain? I get that you effectively create the perched water table in the bucket, but wouldn't just draining the media be sufficient?

that is called drain to waste, many do grow that way very successfully.. I chose PPK because of the pump/electrical failure scenario... and I'm a lazy bastard who likes to go away for a week or 2 ( or even a month) at a time without too much worry about the girls going south. using stacked 600w hps's, even if one bulb or ballast goes, will still limp long. if you want to run one of those systems, them by all means, 'go', do it.

 

[catman]

Nice to meet you, Catman!

The idea is that physical floor of water last the root tendrils themselves helps maximize the immediate availability of nutrient to the plant, as opposed to a relatively still body of water the roots dangle in. Like I said, when I have a little extra time on my hands (!!) I'll run a head to head and see what I get. OUR, if someone has some insight here so I can just implement best practice and keep focusing on my own goals.

Your quote about Jacks 20-20-20 is well taken, and in fact that's not a mix I would recommend for hydroponic ganja.

I prefer a two part Jacks mix of 5-12-26 Jacks Professional Hydroponic w/ micros, plus the recommended seeing part of calcium nitrate. Having these two separate allows for easy manipulation of the partial concentration of N in solution. I add a bit of epsom salt to this, plus a skôsh of MKP during peak bloom. OGBiowar for happy roots. Adjust pH and serve mildly chilled...

Nice to meet you as well

I must admit I was assuming you wouldn't already be using Jack's hydro products. I think a side-by-side would be an interesting and worthwhile experiment. I believe another way of stating your words would be that you wish to expose greater amounts of nutrient solution to the surface area of the roots. It makes sense to me that you would mechanically accomplish that, but to my limited understanding, nutrient uptake by roots is more so a cellular process than a mechanical one. I have seen many people report damage to plants/roots from too much of an undercurrent. Maybe there is a beneficial balance between too much and none at all .

My last grow I did not document here, but the only change I made is I did not change out my water. I had 5 gallon buckets with the tailpiece sitting on top of 3 gallon buckets. They were watered by Blumat drippers. The tailpiece sat in still water for several months and no contamination developed. The water was always room temperature which was not chilled. I only use synthetic nutrients, but that isn't the whole story. In previous grows where I occasionally drained the lower 3 gallon buckets, I had algae and nasties grow. My conclusion... nasties can't grow where there ain't no oxygen and the plant gets plenty of oxygen in the upper bucket with turface as the medium.

So the tailpiece being connected the res below w/ an air gap necessitates that the perched water table doesn't develop?

Yes and no. There will technically always be a PWT with turface because of its particle size and shape. The PWT is how far water will wick up so theoretically say it wicks up 3 inches. 3 inches above a 5 gallon bucket is a lot of water compared to 3 inches in a 6''x1.5'' tube (the tailpiece.)

My point was wouldn't it be sufficient to just have the tailpipe without the res (i.e., just to have a drain hole of some sort)? Of course if you have a power/pump failure this will be a problem in that you don't have the wick as a backup, but my point was that how much of the growth is really due to the wicking itself as opposed to the flood & drain? I get that you effectively create the perched water table in the bucket, but wouldn't just draining the media be sufficient?

I experimented with watering 5 gallon buckets with tailpieces by hand and via Blumats. At times I had plants with no air gap; meaning the lower bucket was completely full up to the bottom of the upper bucket. I once did an experiment in which I took a 5 gallon bucket of dry and wet-but-drained turface and sat it on top of a filled 3 gallon bucket of water with no air gap. Very little water would wick up. As little as it was, I believe it would still be more than a plant would use.

I'm sure you've seen plants grown in hempy buckets. Although very simple, good growers get great plants. I believe the good growers consistently follow basic guidelines and irrigate often. The plants will adapt to their environment and thus a consistent environment is important.

I've seen very few pictures of roots grown with the PPK. The ones I have seen have been concentrated toward the top of the container. The root mass in hempy buckets is concentrated at the bottom. I don't believe it makes a difference since we are growing indoors where the wind won't topple a plant with a shallow root structure over. If you want to check out my grows in my signature, you will see the result of a cat or person whom successfully filled a bucket with roots. I don't think it helped grow any more bud and it probably costed me in time and nutrients. However, I was very limited by light. If you want more plants, more light will far outweigh any other detail. Oh...The pursuit of efficiency and effectiveness.

 

[flat9]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think I also could have answered my own question by taking a look at farmari's own thread, in which he apparently hand waters once a week but the rest is all wicking. Of course he is using coco which wicks like a champion, but it seems reasonable to say that the wicking is at the least helping the growth rate as well as adding insurance in the event of a pump failure...

 

[TerpeneTom]

I don't quite understand how the male piece fits within the 3.5" hole. I understand that you have to cut it, but where exactly? Also, how does it fit with the ridges on the sides?

Thanks

 

[DabOnDabs]

you cut just above the threads, leaving a small lip. Look at page 80,... flat9 posted pics. The first pic on the bottom is the male piece, after its been cut.