Brix

[milkyjoe]

Hi Milky,
No offense, but I do have a few questions/comments concerning your statement (the passages in question are underlined):
- How do you know that your primary metabolites are converted to chains? Cause those are often no more solid and/or no longer in the plant sap, hence 'invisible' using plant sap refractometry...
- Why would you want to add 'a wide variety of enzymes' as fertiliser?
- Every good fertiliser contains a 'combo of lots of trace minerals' because they are as important to the plants as vitamins are to us. Basalt, kelp, sea minerals and sulfate salts of the main micros: That part, I don't get... Basalt and kelp may be nice natural sources for minerals, sea salt too but what is 'sea minerals' and why only sulfate salts?
- Also the sentence 'tons of biology to chelate stuff going into the plant to minimize the energy the plant needs to convert stuff' is somewhat weird. What do you mean exactly by that? A plant doesn't use energy to convert something it can't resorb and resorbed minerals, may they be free or bound to a synthetic or natural chelate, are treated the same way. There's always energy used to 'put them in place' if they don't do it by their own; especially chelates have to be metabolised afterwards to get rid of them.
- And finally that one 'controversial cause conventional wisdom is a plant only takes up soluble ions' is wrong. Because many chelates (natural or synthetic) are soluble and modern science has realised that for example metal complexes with humus can still be resorbed and may even have advantages over 'standard' fertilisers. It's just not understood HOW that works .

No offense taken at all. I don't claim to have any real answers, I am learning.

I do not know for a fact longer chains are formed. Other than in plants where tissue testing is done things like protein have formed...that is N plus sugar, right? Or Ca Pectate is a longer chain compound, right?

And yea...a lot of that stuff becomes part of plant and is no longer soluble in the plant. I wonder if Ca influences sap at all. My understanding is it pretty much gets where it is going, forms whatever it forms and that is it. On the other hand something like K mostly stays soluble in the sap, so it greatly influences brix...yet too much k does you no good at all. Plus I wonder if our female plants even have a true sugar sink at all...I am thinking that only happens when a plant is pollinated.

I am looking to get enzyme co factors...does not every enzyme have some metal co factor it needs to form...mostly trace stuff. That is why I like to get a variety of sources in there. And no, not all main traces are through sulfates, obviously the anions cannot be delivered that way...B, Mo for example. I over simplified that.

I actually meant sea salt...I use one that has had the NaCl reduced to about 12%.

I am thinking biology can chelate metals, or complex the single valent stuff, with amino acids and the plant can take that up. There would be energy to break that bond but the plant could then use the amino vs using energy to convert nitrate into amino. No? What I don't know for sure is how much energy does it take to break the bond vs convert nitrate to amino. And I am wondering can you chelate ions with peptides...that could potentially save two energy steps...right?

And, if you have an enzyme that catalyzes any of these reactions you save energy vs not having it right?

That is my thinking anyways. No clue if it is true or not.

 

[milkyjoe]

And that chelating with organic acids is something I think I have observed that helps. When I use CaNO3 I always add a little fulvic acid to the water with it. I "seem" to get a quicker response that way.

So I wonder is it just the ability of the plant to take up a chelate more effectively that an ion...or is it that it uses less energy once it is in the plant. I don't know.

 

[Only Ornamental]

So I'll vote he tried to simplify too much.

That's why I usually don't ask consultants or sales reps but the technician/scientist behind 'em .

Just look at potassium: That ion always stays an ion; it can't be fixed or bound under normal conditions. It also never gives energy off nor turns into energy. It is just resorbed as is, stais mainly in the sap and cytoplasm where it acts as osmotic regulator, helps maintaining the membrane potential and serves as second messenger.
What you can affect, is its behaviour in the soil; for example how fast it will be resorbed and that will directly affect how fast it will be washed out, too.

Using nutrients which should be metabolised by bacteria to be easily available for plants is also not as simple: Maybe you don't have the required mycorrhiza so it won't work. Or you have enough of the right bacteria but they need energy as well; from where do they take it? Right, the plant which they have a symbiosis with provides them with sugar and you have gained nothing!

Every single ion/nutrient is different, each cannabis variety is different, each soil is different; there is no perfect nut mix. You have to adapt by observing your plants; some might do better with organic farming, others in pure chemical hydropontics etc...

 

[milkyjoe]

And OO....completely off topic but transmutation and pleomorphism...real or no?

 

[Only Ornamental]

First to the transmutation and pleomorphism:
The former is some sort of 'neoesoteric charlatanry' to me, the latter a simple biological behaviour (that is, if we speak of the same thing here LoL).
To the rest: That has to wait, got to go, sorry .

 

[milkyjoe]

Using nutrients which should be metabolised by bacteria to be easily available for plants is also not as simple: Maybe you don't have the required mycorrhiza so it won't work. Or you have enough of the right bacteria but they need energy as well; from where do they take it? Right, the plant which they have a symbiosis with provides them with sugar and you have gained nothing!

That is a point I have often wondered about. Is the energy always a wash? Or does one reaction sometimes require less. And does it matter anyways in our case where we can easily provide ferts cause they are such a minor cost compared to the price we get.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

That's why I usually don't ask consultants or sales reps but the technician/scientist behind 'em .

Every single ion/nutrient is different, each cannabis variety is different, each soil is different; there is no perfect nut mix. You have to adapt by observing your plants; some might do better with organic farming, others in pure chemical hydropontics etc...

He's an agronomist. Don't know if you consider someone like that a technician/scientist.

I agree there is no perfect nute program. As for variations in varieties, soil, etc. that's where plant testing comes into play such as tissue analysis and sap testing...which is what this thread is about. Well brix really yet that is only one piece of the puzzle.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

Using nutrients which should be metabolised by bacteria to be easily available for plants is also not as simple: Maybe you don't have the required mycorrhiza so it won't work. Or you have enough of the right bacteria but they need energy as well; from where do they take it? Right, the plant which they have a symbiosis with provides them with sugar and you have gained nothing!

Wanted to chew on this a bit and hopefully I'm on the right track. Maybe part of that energy loop between the bacteria and plant in regards to sugar should include the energy available from sunlight and CO2?

Milkyjoe...as for the amino acid/complete protein thing can't you monitor sap NO3 as part of determining what's going on in that cycle?

 

[milkyjoe]

All of the energy comes from sunlight...no? Photosynthesis makes simple sugar which then combines with minerals, N, etc to form other things. Jacking up photosynthesis provides more energy.

It is one reason a lot of the Albrecht/Reams guys have added foliars. Which makes me believe OO is right about the energy thing...the foliars provide the energy for the plant to send sugars to the roots/microbiology which then use that energy to chelate minerals. You are kinda providing those soluble ions just a different way. The question is does this improve plant health, yield, secondary metabolite formation..or not.

A nitrate meter tells you how much nitrate is in the sap, it does not say anything about aminos. When it reaches a certain level it is certain your brix just dropped is all I know.

 

[NorCalDreaming]

Thx for the input.

I was just going to the comment about the energy swap of sugar from the plant and bacteria gaining nothing that OO mentioned which I get yet. Was looking at the entire cycle. I need to re-read later when I have more time.

I could have swore I remember reading something about monitoring NO3 levels as part of something to look at in that regard. For sure tissue testing will answer a lot and see why it's so important in monitoring crops.

Anyway should be an interesting year.

 

[Granger2]

This is maybe THE best thread I've seen on ICMag. Thanks to all who've contributed. And all have played so well together.

BTW, it occurred to me that, for accuracy, when testing results of a foliar feed, shouldn't the leaf sample be washed with RO or distilled to remove residue of foliar nutes so they don't artificially raise Brix reading? And shouldn't they then be blotted or allowed to dry so the rinse off water doesn't dilute the plant juice? Thanks. -granger

 

[NorCalDreaming]

Milkyjoe...have you ever looked at what LaMotte can offer regarding test kits? I have not looked at their stuff in a long time. I've only run into 1 grower in all my years online that used one of their kits and she was running hydro. I know they have water and soil kits. Took a quick peek at their site and have plant tissue tests also at least for macro and micro nutrients yet no time to look at specifics now.

 

[shaggyballs]

-

 

[Only Ornamental]

Sorry for disconnecting a bit; were a few too many questions about basic plant physiology etc. IMHO a forum isn't there to replace a good book .

I'd like to start the debate by summarising briefly and in a reductionistic way why °Bx is high in healthy plants and why crops, veggies, and fruits of high °Bx are of better quality and what that may have to do with pest resistance.

A plant which has everything in sufficient quantity and the right amount of light will first produce a maximum of sugar (glucose), °Bx goes up. The sugar is then used for growth (the plant looks vigurous), repair (dealing with disease/pest damage), and is also stocked as reserve. Obviously, a growing plant builds more leaves, hence captures more sunlight and produces therefore even more sugar. Also, a tree woud use the reserve not only for fruit production comes fall but also for next springs sprouting and flowering; a cannabis plant only for seed production towards the end of its life. A healthy plant will/can never convert all the sugar into insoluble carbohydrates (or breaks them down to sugar again to use them for growth) and as long as it produces/stocks sugar, °Bx will stay high. If the °Bx (or anabolism) falls, a healthy plant should temporarily reduce storage (°Bx will fall slightly but also later due a to less full storage). Also, a healthy plant not only produces enough energy but has also enough stocked sugar/carbohydrates (or proteins/fats) in fall to produce a lot of fruits/seeds without hampering its health; °Bx should stay at a constant high level; the stems sap is like a buffer between the early sink (roots) and the late sink (fruits).
Leaves + sunlight + CO2 + water -> sugar (high °Bx) -> storage/growth (°Bx stays high) -> more growth/seeds etc. (°Bx should not fall) -> more leaves and the circle starts again but with a higher °Bx from the beginning. In the same time, the °Bx in the storages (including fruits) will constantly rise.

Now, plants under optimal conditions stock sugars/carbohydrates because carbohydrates are easier to convert to sugar and that one faster to move and they are the main building blocks during growth (cellulose fibres & cell walls). Optimal conditions are usually only met in summer (warm and bright weather). Towards fall, plants convert sugar to proteins because they grow less fast and hence use less energy and less nitrogen. Besides, nitrogen one can only be stored in form of amino acids/proteins. Many plants prepare that way for winter, even if they are only annual. Also, a good part of the sugar is needed for the fuits.

Sure enough, all that is a delicate balance between what the plant would be able to do and actually can do with the nutrients it gets. The better it grows, the more it needs and when it slows down growing in fall and starts producing seeds/fruits its requirements change. In nature, such optimal conditions don't exist; the soil does not follow the plants needs but the plant has to adapt its requirements to the seasonal cycle. It is up to the farmer/grower to regulate all the fine details and sure enough, measuring °Bx is one of several nice tools because it directly reflects anabolism ('growth metabolism').

Notably, agricultural crops, veggies, and fruits have basically been breed as carbohydrate sources, in few cases for fat/oil (and usually not proteins). As a source of primary metabolites, high carbohydrates (concurrently high sap/fruit sugar visible as high °Bx) reflect therefore a good harvest quality and not only a healthy plant.
We don't want tough salad, hairy peaches, sour blueberries, or bitter courgettes. These things are caused by secondary metabolites in response to stress (low nutrient, drought, shade, predators etc.) and proteins in winter veggies.
Apropos predators; a healthy plant has enough reserves to withstand short term shortages, repair wounds, and regrow lost leaves, but can also spend energy for preventive and curative defense mechanisms; it will cope with damage/disease/herbivores/shortages much better and that on several levels. But a healthy plant will not use its whole energy to prevent damage but push more into growth; damage is usually dealth with when it happens. A healthy plant results therefore in a tender and sweet harvest.
Sure enough, we do want healthy cannabis plants but we don't want cannabis to be a tender, sweet, fresh salad veggie which doesn't stick and has no sharp taste! Maybe EVERYTHING we seek in the final harvest (flower buds but no seeds) is in disagreement with common farmers sens. We want it to fight for its life and produce a hell of a lot of defense chemicals (trichomes brimmed with canabinoid and terpene saturated resin)! We don't like weed to burn like hairs or fingernails so we even flush the soil at the end to deprive the plants reserves (mainly proteins). Which farmer would waist his fertilisers? And that's where Brix stops to matter... I don't know in which direction it goes (should go) with our 'end of season' treatment but who cares if the plant really is healthy in the last few weeks of its life (as long as it has no PM or spider mites)? Besides, sinsemilla is not a healthy plant because no healthy plant dies without having produced seeds!

I stop here for now...

 

[Adze]

For those of you who know relatively little about the topic, like me, here is a link to a video that explains the basics of Brix. I appreciate the information here, thanks to all.
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2009/09/the-refractometer-an-indispensable-monitoring-tool/

 

[NorCalDreaming]

Found out the LaMotte macronutrient kit tests for nitrates, phosphorous and potassium while their micronutrient kit tests for manganese, iron, copper, zinc and boron. They didn't know of anyone that offers a home protein test kit and guess the only way to determine that is using a lab. Anyway just FYI stuff for anyone interested in expanding their home test capabilities.

 

[silver hawaiian]

Here for more education..

 

[Only Ornamental]

They didn't know of anyone that offers a home protein test kit and guess the only way to determine that is using a lab. Anyway just FYI stuff for anyone interested in expanding their home test capabilities.

For a DIY approximate total protein determination, get some ninhydrin and a protein standard (like BSA or even simple gelatine). Works also in solution but best on TLC plates. Else, there's a bunch of protein kits for plate readers which work quite fine under the naked eye like Lowry, BCA, Bradford, or Biuret tests.

 

[redclover]

I'm a little confused on such a monumental subject. So will a dialed in synthetic run produce the same taste as an all organic living soil?!

 

[Only Ornamental]

So will a dialed in synthetic run produce the same taste as an all organic living soil?!

No, it won't.
Organic living soil = natural, biodiversity, in tune with the seasons, less waist, no pollution, sustainable, the way to go (if you can)
Inorganic hydro = always optimal nutrient supply and perfect 'weather', no pests, 'man dominates nature and the world is doomed', works everywhere if you've got the money

So, one will fluctuate strongly and a good season will give a perfect harvest but a cloudy and moist fall will result in not much. The other will always be +/- the same and may bring out everything the plant can give in a 'sterile' environment.

Which one you like more is solely up to you!