Bad Habit's 10x13 CGE Room Build

[the gnome]

ahhh that makes sense. I was thinking of using a staple gun just to get it in place, then use reflective tapes all around the seams.

I know you keep saying to read through the site, but I'm assuming it doesn't have stuff specific to a grow room, so if you don't mind can I ask you a few more questions? lol

1) I was planning on framing just the floor and putting pond liner down to protect against water on the wood floors, but I assume it would be a good idea to put a layer of prodex down under that?
yes, a very good idea, on the prodex site they have an under a concrete slab section
2) I'm kinda wondering what the order of operations should be in terms of installing the prodex and then the other stuff. For example, is it it fine to drill through the prodex for like hanging my lights and stuff? Like I'm finishing the sub-panel, then painting, then should I put the prodex up everywhere THEN hang all the lights, ballasts, fans etc? If drilling through the prodex, should I put like reflective tape down where I'm drilling to help seal it on itself when it's punctured? sorry if that's confusing...
there's no prob with drilling or running screws thru pro dex.
if your drilling a 1/2" hole and running a 1/4" fastener then i would use the tape or a good sealant, I did this where i had to use a razor to slice the prodex,
as long as its sealed your good. a screw, nail is pretty much self sealing..... of course realistically a few small holes here and there isn't going to adversely effect performance
3) every wall already has an outlet on it, so I was planning on using those for my accessories like fans and not installing any new ones external to the pre-existing walls. So should I install the prodex, then cut squares through the prodex around the outlets and just tape those squares with reflective tape?
hmmm.... the reflective tape is conductive, as long as your not plugging elec. things thru the the foil tape you should be ok, i think at lowes/HD they have foam gaskets you put under the plate to seal against air,
I'd use those and run prodex over the plate and cut out for the actual plug like you said

Sorry to keep bombarding you with questions! You've been a great help so far man.
no prob BHs, I've gotten so much help here its nice to be able to give back

Subpanel is getting installed as we speak, and will probably be done by tonight or tomorrow night. Will snap a few pics after.

looking forward to seeing some of those pics!

 

[Bad Habits]

Gnome, thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions! I appreciate it man.

Would have never even thought of adding a gasket behind the electrical outlet plates to seal against air... do you think this is necessary? Just a good extra precautionary measure to keep the room sealed?

Pic of the new 100amp subpanel:

So I told the electrician I wanted a 100amp subpanel to run all the equipment in the room off of. Guess I was sort of expecting a bunch of different circuits like 20/20/30/30 etc. Right now there's just the 100 at the top (or is that just the main flip switch or whatever?) and 2 20 amp circuits that I told him i wanted to run out to my shed behind the house. As I add in the equipment like AC lights etc will he just add more circuits onto the panel? Kinda confused how that works... I know he's wired up 1 grow before so I hope he knows what he's doing...

Alphakronic Las Vegas Purple Kush BX day 31:

about 9 days after transplanting, and 2 days after training two of the branches down

 

[the gnome]

Gnome, thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions! I appreciate it man.

Would have never even thought of adding a gasket behind the electrical outlet plates to seal against air... do you think this is necessary? Just a good extra precautionary measure to keep the room sealed?

I'd definitely use the gasket, its a quick-n-cheep option.

nice to see some greenery BH

 

[Bad Habits]

I'd definitely use the gasket, its a quick-n-cheep option.

nice to see some greenery BH

I'll definitely have to look into those then!

Just ordered 2 rolls of the prodex 4'x175'. Calculated my room walls come to about 625 sq ft, and each roll is 700 sq feet, so hopefully that should be enough to do 2 layers. Also got 4 rolls of double sided tape to attach the seams. They were out of normal reflective tape but that's easy to get in town and I already have a roll or 2 sitting around.

Should start painting by the day after tomorrow! Hope the prodex doesn't take too long to deliver... wanna get the room wrapped in it before installing anything else.

 

[the gnome]

sounds like the balls a rolling now BH

they're pretty quick getting out orders,
it took about 3-4 days to get mine in after i ordered.
prodex is da bomb, so easy-n-clean to work with,
i used a breakaway razor knife for cutting.
I'm going to get more of it and put it in my attic.

 

[milfweeder]

Hey guys I'm going to jump in here with some probably dumb questions.
So first up, Bad Habits it looks like you're well on your way to a nice setup there, keep up the good work!

I am considering going bigger than I ever have before, which has been Two 400 W's and that's it. At what point do you start to need the subpanel? And why do you do it? Is it a safety thing...or does it keep breakers from tripping? I know my strain really well, and I know my grow methods really well, but the electrical side of things baffles me...
If you you guys are able to recommend some materials for me to read up on that would be great.
That's some really good info gnome on the R values of the insulation and all that. very helpful stuff, thanks guys.

 

[Bad Habits]

sounds like the balls a rolling now BH

they're pretty quick getting out orders,
it took about 3-4 days to get mine in after i ordered.
prodex is da bomb, so easy-n-clean to work with,
i used a breakaway razor knife for cutting.
I'm going to get more of it and put it in my attic.

Hell ya dude! Mine should be here Monday or Tuesday, and I'm about 1/2 way done with painting my house right now. So after the paint drys, it's time to start insulating!

Hey man I got another question for ya. So should I insulate the room first, THEN instal the AC, light controllers, etc?

In terms of hanging the actual lights themselves, is the easiest thing to do find out where the studs are, taken measurements and note, then insulate, then drill 2x4s/2x8s into where the studs are through the insulation, and hang your lights from those?

Just trying to wrap my mind around the optimal order of operations.

Hey guys I'm going to jump in here with some probably dumb questions.
So first up, Bad Habits it looks like you're well on your way to a nice setup there, keep up the good work!

I am considering going bigger than I ever have before, which has been Two 400 W's and that's it. At what point do you start to need the subpanel? And why do you do it? Is it a safety thing...or does it keep breakers from tripping? I know my strain really well, and I know my grow methods really well, but the electrical side of things baffles me...
If you you guys are able to recommend some materials for me to read up on that would be great.
That's some really good info gnome on the R values of the insulation and all that. very helpful stuff, thanks guys.

Thanks man!

No worries bro.

The subpanel becomes necessary when you exceed the amount of power the room is able to generate through its normal circuits to the outlets, etc. For example, in that bedroom there is probably 2 20amp circuits, and 1 30 amp that run to the room, which supply power to the outlets, preexisting ceiling lights, and baseboard heater that are originally in the room. Now, just 1 of my 8 light controllers (the boxes I plug the ballasts into) needs a dedicated 30 amp circuit, so you can't just plug that into a normal outlet because it requires more outlet than the outlets in my room provide (20 amps). So my light controllers will be hard wired into my subpanel. Another example would be my AC unit - it also requires a 30 amp dedicated circuit. Again, that doesn't exist in the room originally, so a 30amp circuit will be added within the 100amp subpanel to supply power to that.

I have read you can generally power about 1000ws of light and accessories through a typical bedroom. So considering I'm gonna be running 6400+ watts of light total, you see how I'm way out of bounds of what the room is originally designed to provide.

Hope that makes sense and provides some clarity

 

[the gnome]

Hell ya dude! Mine should be here Monday or Tuesday, and I'm about 1/2 way done with painting my house right now. So after the paint drys, it's time to start insulating!

Hey man I got another question for ya. So should I insulate the room first, THEN instal the AC, light controllers, etc?

In terms of hanging the actual lights themselves, is the easiest thing to do find out where the studs are, taken measurements and note, then insulate, then drill 2x4s/2x8s into where the studs are through the insulation, and hang your lights from those?

Just trying to wrap my mind around the optimal order of operations.



Thanks man!

if you have to cut out for the prodex to install this stuff and/or lay the 2x tracks on the ceiling I would put the prodex up 1st.

you can easily mark studs and ceiling joists with small trims nails(headless) leaving them stick out just past the thickness of the prodex
as you install prodex the nails pop thru,
or measure 1st. then drill/screw your stuff in
whatever you feel more comfortable with

 

[unregistered190]

Good info gnome...thanks for sharing!

 

[Treetroit City]

I would suggest burning propane or natural gas for your co2 production. Your going to be getting those tanks filled every week.

I run a watercooled Co2 system I put together with a tankless hot water heater for about 250.00

Bad info here. People tried to tell me the same thing, that I would be needing a couple #50's.

Tape every corner, every seam, every nail hole, every staple.

I get 8-9 weeks on a #20 tank at 900 PPM in my 12x13 room.

Literally every staple!

 

[Bad Habits]

if you have to cut out for the prodex to install this stuff and/or lay the 2x tracks on the ceiling I would put the prodex up 1st.

you can easily mark studs and ceiling joists with small trims nails(headless) leaving them stick out just past the thickness of the prodex
as you install prodex the nails pop thru,
or measure 1st. then drill/screw your stuff in
whatever you feel more comfortable with

Dude that's an awesome idea! haha even though it's so simple I didn't even think of doing that. Thanks gnome!

Good info gnome...thanks for sharing!

no problem dude!

Bad info here. People tried to tell me the same thing, that I would be needing a couple #50's.

Tape every corner, every seam, every nail hole, every staple.

I get 8-9 weeks on a #20 tank at 900 PPM in my 12x13 room.

Literally every staple!

Thanks for dropping in Third Coast! I really appreciate the input man.

Dude thanks for posting some pics! I've read through your whole room setup thread, but still have never seen any pics until not. Would love to see some more pics of the room if you ever have time

That's somewhat reassuring about the CO2 tanks. I was hoping to go with thanks because of the reduced heat output compared to a burner. Some folks recommended the water heater one, which seems freakin awesome, but looking at how gnome set his up it looks like you need to have some kind of downspout or line that goes into a tank/res/trashcan ?? Not sure what the requirements of the size are for what the container size of where that line hooks in, or if it can just go into your normal rez or whatever, but if it can't just go into the feeding rez and needs a dedicated container, I realistically don't have space for that in the room. Maybe gnome could chime in?

 

[the gnome]

Dude that's an awesome idea! haha even though it's so simple I didn't even think of doing that. Thanks gnome!

I was in a hurry this AM and forgot to expound further the reasoning for the nails
on the ceiling where your runs will be long
set em a foot or so past where you think the end runs of the fasteners will be on the ceiling joists,
that way you can hook a string on the nails
then you have a guide for the fasteners....
of course this is provided your joists are straight
I would do a dry run before the prodex and make sure your in the center of the joists at points along the string,
just check the center point between the nails

this is basic carpentry 101....
AND
a string is one of the most important tools in a carpenters tool box

That's somewhat reassuring about the CO2 tanks. I was hoping to go with tanks because of the reduced heat output compared to a burner. Some folks recommended the water heater one, which seems freakin awesome, but looking at how gnome set his up it looks like you need to have some kind of downspout or line that goes into a tank/res/trashcan ?? Not sure what the requirements of the size are for what the container size of where that line hooks in, or if it can just go into your normal rez or whatever, but if it can't just go into the feeding rez and needs a dedicated container, I realistically don't have space for that in the room. Maybe gnome could chime in?

i wanted to go with tanks from the get go but didn't like the idea of the heat from a gas gen
of refilling tanks and Qs/suspicions that might go with it.

for a smaller room tanks are fine, but for larger areas like mine,
14' x 20' gas is a better way.

there's several ways to go with the gas water gen,

to feed the water to it you can
A---> use a submersible water pump to feed the Co2 gen in which case you'll need a trashcan for a supply water.
OR
use an elec. selenoid valve fed by tap water.

both pump and solenoid are connected to your Co2 controller.

as for where to drain you can....
A---> drain to waste (what i do)
I have a 3/4" pvc line for the AC condensate and dehuey runoff that goes outside or if you have a drain to the sewer handy you can use that.
OR
dump it back in the dedicated container which i don't like,
it can accumulate heat your AC has to deal with.

the heat from the gas gen is really minimal as it only runs maybe 3-5Xs and hour and is on less than 60 seconds

you said you didn't have space in the room for the dedicated water supply, you can have it outside the room or use the elec solenoid

gas is a cheaper in the long run over tanks for larger rooms
from what Ive read this seems to be the consensus


hope this helps BHs

 

[Bad Habits]

I was in a hurry this AM and forgot to expound further the reasoning for the nails
on the ceiling where your runs will be long
set em a foot or so past where you think the end runs of the fasteners will be on the ceiling joists,
that way you can hook a string on the nails
then you have a guide for the fasteners....
of course this is provided your joists are straight
I would do a dry run before the prodex and make sure your in the center of the joists at points along the string,
just check the center point between the nails

this is basic carpentry 101....
AND
a string is one of the most important tools in a carpenters tool box








i wanted to go with tanks from the get go but didn't like the idea of the heat from a gas gen
of refilling tanks and Qs/suspicions that might go with it.

for a smaller room tanks are fine, but for larger areas like mine,
14' x 20' gas is a better way.

there's several ways to go with the gas water gen,

to feed the water to it you can
A---> use a submersible water pump to feed the Co2 gen in which case you'll need a trashcan for a supply water.
OR
use an elec. selenoid valve fed by tap water.

both pump and solenoid are connected to your Co2 controller.

as for where to drain you can....
A---> drain to waste (what i do)
I have a 3/4" pvc line for the AC condensate and dehuey runoff that goes outside or if you have a drain to the sewer handy you can use that.
OR
dump it back in the dedicated container which i don't like,
it can accumulate heat your AC has to deal with.

the heat from the gas gen is really minimal as it only runs maybe 3-5Xs and hour and is on less than 60 seconds

you said you didn't have space in the room for the dedicated water supply, you can have it outside the room or use the elec solenoid

gas is a cheaper in the long run over tanks for larger rooms
from what Ive read this seems to be the consensus


hope this helps BHs

I'm not gonna lie man, but all the carpentry stuff you just said went right over my head... I really have zero carpentry experience so I suppose I just don't know the vocab beyond what a stud is... If you could elaborate on what that stuff is that would be amazing, however feel free to tell me to fuk off and go google search all that stuff! You've already taken a lot of time to answer my questions and I really appreciate it man.

Thanks for elaborating on the CO2 stuff as well. Might just be because I'm unfamiliar with it, but it seems like the stuff required for the gas water gen just wouldn't fit into my rooms scheme. Seems like the tanks are probably a better fit given my room dimensions and what I'm trying to accomplish with it.

 

[Bad Habits]

Carbon Filter Sizing

Carbon Filter Sizing

So got another question regarding carbon filter sizing/rating for the sealed room...

Since I'm scrubbing and recirculating the air in the room, what air exchange should I be aiming for???

When I was talking about it with my buddy he was saying about once a minute since it's recirculating. He said to get a CAN FILTER CARBON FILTER 75 which is rated at 1200 cfm maximum for recirculating and scrubbing, and to get the 12" max fan which is rated for 1080 cfm. My room is a little under 1040 cubic feet (10 x 13 x 8, minus a little bit of walling around the closet area). He's never run a truly sealed room before and was pretty blazed when he made the recommendation, so I just wanna make sure it's all kosher before making the purchase.

Any input anyone? Gnome?

 

[the gnome]

looking at those figures they match up with with the canfan site's recommendations so you shouldn't have any probs with that set up.
the 12" max fan will also handle all of can's filters up to the 150
something to think about,
you can never have too much filter

I have a can 150 with a 10" HO canfan, the 10" is a bit undersized for the 150
i had the 10" laying around so using that and see what it does till i get more funds.
but, since i'm completely sealed there's no smell escaping anyways.

since Ive never really run a sealed room before i hope I'm right lol
I'm going into bloom tonite so this will be my 1st run with a large sealed room

 

[Bad Habits]

Updates

So I should be finished painting the room tomorrow
Question - how long should I let it dry/air out for before I start installing the prodex? The paint is Pratt and Lambert Pro-Hide Gold with eggshell finish. On the spec sheet it says that @ 77f and 50%RH it should dry in 30 minutes to touch and 4 hours to recoat... but does it need time to offgas or air out or anything before I start installing the installation in the room? I guess now that I think about it, I might not start putting in the installation until after I get my security system installed, which should be the week after next... Not sure if I want the installers to see a room looking like it's getting prepped to grow in... but then again there already is a subpanel in there, but that isn't particularly suspicious on it's own...

Speaking of prodex, got my two rolls delivered today! Just waiting on the tape to arrive.

Also heard back from my HVAC guy yesterday. He said he could get me a 3 ton mitsu split installed for $3500. Not sure what model yet. I had told them that I was really only trying to spend 3 grand, it seems like looking at the mitsus online 3500 seems pretty accurate tho... Just another example of things that end up costing more than you anticipate :/ Gonna see if there's any good alternatives for a bit cheaper first...

looking at those figures they match up with with the canfan site's recommendations so you shouldn't have any probs with that set up.
the 12" max fan will also handle all of can's filters up to the 150
something to think about,
you can never have too much filter

I have a can 150 with a 10" HO canfan, the 10" is a bit undersized for the 150
i had the 10" laying around so using that and see what it does till i get more funds.
but, since i'm completely sealed there's no smell escaping anyways.

since Ive never really run a sealed room before i hope I'm right lol
I'm going into bloom tonite so this will be my 1st run with a large sealed room

Awesome! Good to know my buddy seems to know what he's talking about

Wish you the best of luck with your transition into bloom buddy

 

[Coconutz]

Another vote for tanks!
Shit lasts me a cycle in my 8x10 sealed room set at 900ppm.
When I run my house heater or use hot water I get free co2 though
I have 2 tanks here and fill one every other month or so
Not sure about your layout, but a co2 gen is the last thing I would recommend installing in your living space.
You dont hear from the people who have had co2 gen problems because they are usually dead or in jail
Peace

 

[budleydoright]

Tanks are good for small stuff but don't scale up well. I would go for a burner if there are any issues getting tank refills. For me, it was just taking too long to get them filled and I always seemed to run out at a bad time. If I were to do tanks again, I would rent instead of buying the tank so I could simply swap the bottle. After paying for my nice shiney aluminum tanks, I didn't want to swap them. With propane I can swap a tank at 2am at 7-11.

You dont hear from the people who have had co2 gen problems because they are usually dead or in jail

I think it is more likely that we are not having problems. This is proven technology is quite safe and used by virtually all large scale grows. Let's not confuse Co2 with CO.

 

[Bad Habits]

Question About Veg Area

Alright so I'm trying to figure out the best way for intake/exhaust in the closet veg area.

Up until now I've always done cab/closet grows and just used passive intake with a fan to exhaust...

I'm guessing a passive air intake won't be sufficient for the veg area since it's going to have 700-1000w worth of lighting crammed into 90 cubic feet? Or would I be able to get away with say 2 passive air intakes at the bottom if I had a powerful enough fan exhausting at the top of the space?

Any ideas what size (I'm guessing inline?) fans I'm gonna need to cool the area? Keep in mind my 3 ton mini split will be set to maintain the flower area right outside the closet area in the 70's...

Any input would be much appreciated

Oh ya and I finished painting the room... Next up is locating all the studs/ceiling joists and marking them (thanks Gnome for the tips on how!), then caulking/sealing where the subpanel lines enter the room from the ceiling, then installing the insulation.

Been doin a lot of other work on the house, mainly by myself, and I gotta say it's going slow as hell... When I first got the house I was thinking I would have the room finished out within 2-3 weeks... HA! Had the house a month now and no where even close to that... Gonna probably be at least another month minimum before it's finished. Got my plants vegging out in a different spot right now, so I'm not in a huge time crunch, but I'd rather not have to transport the plants once they're too big... My first batch of 5 plants are on about week 6, and I'm still rooting clones from em to sex to see which one's I need to throw out (started from seed to avoid any pests).

Another vote for tanks!
Shit lasts me a cycle in my 8x10 sealed room set at 900ppm.
When I run my house heater or use hot water I get free co2 though
I have 2 tanks here and fill one every other month or so
Not sure about your layout, but a co2 gen is the last thing I would recommend installing in your living space.
You dont hear from the people who have had co2 gen problems because they are usually dead or in jail
Peace

Ya I'm about 90% sure I'm gonna go with tanks, it just seems to make the most sense for my situation...

Any reason why you set it at 900ppm instead of the normal 12-1300ppm in flower? Sorry, I'm sure you get that question all the time, I'm just curious

Tanks are good for small stuff but don't scale up well. I would go for a burner if there are any issues getting tank refills. For me, it was just taking too long to get them filled and I always seemed to run out at a bad time. If I were to do tanks again, I would rent instead of buying the tank so I could simply swap the bottle. After paying for my nice shiney aluminum tanks, I didn't want to swap them. With propane I can swap a tank at 2am at 7-11.

I think it is more likely that we are not having problems. This is proven technology is quite safe and used by virtually all large scale grows. Let's not confuse Co2 with CO.

Shouldn't be any issues with tank refills - the hydro shops in town just swap em out right then and there. I think tanks just make the most sense for my room given the space restrictions.

 

[the gnome]

Been doin a lot of other work on the house, mainly by myself, and I gotta say it's going slow as hell... When I first got the house I was thinking I would have the room finished out within 2-3 weeks... HA! Had the house a month now and no where even close to that...

lol! that one hit home with me and probably every other 1st time grow room builder

Any reason why you set it at 900ppm instead of the normal 12-1300ppm in flower? Sorry, I'm sure you get that question all the time, I'm just curious

there's been discussions forever about how much Co2 is enough, too much, ideal.
recently Ive read there's quite a few that say 900ppm is all you need and anymore is a waste.
its kinda like the defoliation debate..... some say yes and some say no.
if you have the time there's probabley 3-4 Co2 reads in the 1st 5 pages in the forum on it