-
-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Brix
- Thread starter shaggyballs
- Start date
Razzurrection
Member
i've heard of Brix Mix used in vineyards to increase the sugar content in the grapes.
Nice thread shaggyballs 
.
Though with cannabis, there are a few things to consider, because cannabis is more often smoked than eaten.
Plants (in general) accumulate basically amino acids in fall, whereas they store mainly carbohydrates in summer. That means, weak autumn lighting and low temperatures in addition to flushing decrease the amount of sugar considerably.
Also, the preferred harvest before sunrise and eventual storage for two days in the dark prior to chopping lowers sugar content of aerial parts. The curing process lowers it even more.
Obviously, sugar isn't appreciated in a joint (well, amino acids and proteins even less, but that's beside the point) and hence, a low °Bx at harvest should logically be favoured.
.Though with cannabis, there are a few things to consider, because cannabis is more often smoked than eaten.
Plants (in general) accumulate basically amino acids in fall, whereas they store mainly carbohydrates in summer. That means, weak autumn lighting and low temperatures in addition to flushing decrease the amount of sugar considerably.
Also, the preferred harvest before sunrise and eventual storage for two days in the dark prior to chopping lowers sugar content of aerial parts. The curing process lowers it even more.
Obviously, sugar isn't appreciated in a joint (well, amino acids and proteins even less, but that's beside the point) and hence, a low °Bx at harvest should logically be favoured.
-
Addendum
Addendum
And there is even more:
The taste of cannabis comes mainly from essential oil in the trichomes; the juice on the other hand is water from within the plant tissue.
Sure, a healthy grown plant will have more nutrients and more primary metabolites (the latter are often the main goal of agricultural crops) and obviously a cannabis plant which thrives will also result in good healt and therefore a nice harvest. But we are interested in secondary metabolites, more precisely resin. Its production (BTW in many aromatic spices too) is often coupled to defense mechanisms and therefore increased under 'stress', that may be intense light exposure, temperature extremes, predators, shortage in available nutrients, drought etc. and that is exactly what growers do to their plants during the final weeks of the season (and also before).
OK, drought for example will result in drier plant matter and hence a concentrated sap -> °Bx rises and coincides maybe with a better harvest (if the plant doesn't get killed by the process). That's also what winemakers do with noble rot and when making straw wine or ice wine (they speak of the oechsle scale in that case) .
Addendum
And there is even more:
The taste of cannabis comes mainly from essential oil in the trichomes; the juice on the other hand is water from within the plant tissue.
Sure, a healthy grown plant will have more nutrients and more primary metabolites (the latter are often the main goal of agricultural crops) and obviously a cannabis plant which thrives will also result in good healt and therefore a nice harvest. But we are interested in secondary metabolites, more precisely resin. Its production (BTW in many aromatic spices too) is often coupled to defense mechanisms and therefore increased under 'stress', that may be intense light exposure, temperature extremes, predators, shortage in available nutrients, drought etc. and that is exactly what growers do to their plants during the final weeks of the season (and also before).
OK, drought for example will result in drier plant matter and hence a concentrated sap -> °Bx rises and coincides maybe with a better harvest (if the plant doesn't get killed by the process). That's also what winemakers do with noble rot and when making straw wine or ice wine (they speak of the oechsle scale in that case)
.
wallywombat
Member
Wooohoooo someone has put brix into plain English that even I can understand , thank you a lot for your information
And there is even more:
The taste of cannabis comes mainly from essential oil in the trichomes; the juice on the other hand is water from within the plant tissue.
Sure, a healthy grown plant will have more nutrients and more primary metabolites (the latter are often the main goal of agricultural crops) and obviously a cannabis plant which thrives will also result in good healt and therefore a nice harvest. But we are interested in secondary metabolites, more precisely resin. Its production (BTW in many aromatic spices too) is often coupled to defense mechanisms and therefore increased under 'stress', that may be intense light exposure, temperature extremes, predators, shortage in available nutrients, drought etc. and that is exactly what growers do to their plants during the final weeks of the season (and also before).
OK, drought for example will result in drier plant matter and hence a concentrated sap -> °Bx rises and coincides maybe with a better harvest (if the plant doesn't get killed by the process). That's also what winemakers do with noble rot and when making straw wine or ice wine (they speak of the oechsle scale in that case)
The stress thing works to a certain extent...the question I am struggling with is if it is not maybe better to provide the plant with enough energy to make more fat which could then be converted into essential oils.
I have been told this is being done in mint production with outstanding results.
Do you have an opinion?
E
Eureka Springs Organics
I have yet to see good application of Brix monitoring in relation to cannabis growing. We just aren't there yet.
Good question
.Sure, it only works to a certain extent and that's why everyone on this forum (and likely others) is discussing on how/what/when etc.
Fat? You mean fat like fatty acids, triglycerids, oil and such?
That has nothing to do with secondary metabolites and is also not the main energy storage in plants (unlike human bellies and bottoms). I've observed that with peppermint and lemon balm too; they get better when boosted. On the other hand, rosemary and thyme will just grow tall but the aroma goes down the drain. Mint and balm thrive in half shade whereas the others like full sun exposure... got to run, dog has the squits..
-
poolplayer
Member
Higher brix is higher quality in wine? Uh...sorry, but no.
Winemakers may let grapes get pretty sweet to make sure the tannins and phenolics are full developed, but no one wants to add water to the tank if you don't have to.
There comes a point where the sugar is too high for the yeast to complete fermentation and this isn't good most of the time. The left over sugar is food for stuff that can cause major problems.
There are super sweet grapes left hanging for late harvest wines, but the generalization of sweeter is better is stupid.
BTW, I live in Norcal, and have done wine chemistry since '97
Winemakers may let grapes get pretty sweet to make sure the tannins and phenolics are full developed, but no one wants to add water to the tank if you don't have to.
There comes a point where the sugar is too high for the yeast to complete fermentation and this isn't good most of the time. The left over sugar is food for stuff that can cause major problems.
There are super sweet grapes left hanging for late harvest wines, but the generalization of sweeter is better is stupid.
BTW, I live in Norcal, and have done wine chemistry since '97
-
There are literally hundreds of thousands of secondary metabolites and only some derive from fatty acids
. Essential oil and cannabinoids come from the isoprene pathway (I think also a small part comes from the polyketide pathway) and those are something completely different to the CoA one.
Sorry, got to go, more later....
Thanks OO, look forward to hearing the more.
Also it seems to me phospholipids are key to the prevention of things like PM which feed on pectins. It is my understanding (not saying I am sure at all) that a phosphopipid layer covers a Ca Pectate layer on the leaf...the thicker that pl layer the less likely the mold can reach its food source.
Plus brix simply measures the amount of solids in the sap. It says nothing about how complex the carbohydrate chains are, whether you have non protein N vs complete protein or how much fat you have. The goal for plant health is actually how long the carbon chains are...again my understanding, not an absolute fact.
My opinion is brix is a single measurement that taken alone does not mean all that much. Taken in a broader context it is a guide to how healthy your plant is.
Also it seems to me phospholipids are key to the prevention of things like PM which feed on pectins. It is my understanding (not saying I am sure at all) that a phosphopipid layer covers a Ca Pectate layer on the leaf...the thicker that pl layer the less likely the mold can reach its food source.
Plus brix simply measures the amount of solids in the sap. It says nothing about how complex the carbohydrate chains are, whether you have non protein N vs complete protein or how much fat you have. The goal for plant health is actually how long the carbon chains are...again my understanding, not an absolute fact.
My opinion is brix is a single measurement that taken alone does not mean all that much. Taken in a broader context it is a guide to how healthy your plant is.
My opinion is a plant is basically a plant. I have been using brix for a while now to guide my mineral nutrition. Combined with sap pH and soil EC interesting things start to emerge
And I'm back (but maybe not long this evening...
AFAIK, what protects plant leaves against many fungi (PM for example) is the cuticle, a hydrophobic layer on the surface. It contains cutin and things like that but likely not too many (if ever) phospholipids (because they would make the surface hydrophile and eventually wash out). Pectin is a main part of the cell wall and phospholipids of the cell membrane.
Why don't you write a separate thread if you're interested? Not to mix up things too much
.Second statement: Completely my opinion, too!
Now, where was I?
Ah yes: Secondary metabolites, essential oil and lipids...
@Milkyjoe: Could you elaborate your line of thoughts a bit more? I really can't see how "fat" and essential oil could possibly play together and what has that to do with Brix?
Shaggyballs has a nice thread about terpenoids (aka essential oil) HERE. As one can see from the graphs 4 and 5, terpenes and cannabinoids start with mevalonyl-CoA. Breaking down fatty acids (thats the part which is common in most lipids and the true source of the energy in "fat") results in acetyl-CoA (and "energy" etc.).
A winemaking, potgrowing chemist! COOOOLLLL!
Do you also have that excellent taste or is it just test tubes?
IMPT (that stands for 'In my personal taste'), sweeter is better cause I love sweet white wine LoL! OK, don't know how far that is true for Bordeaux wines (I love them too), but they (or acutally many winegrowers in France) heavily trim the vine to keep them small and also leave just few grapes per plant. They get less wine but it's way better than Swiss of German ones where the vines grow big and have a lot of, finally sour, grapes resulting in a watery liquid called "Wein". Maybe it's also the sun, the soil, malolactic fermentation or whatever.
Just wondering how you guys in America do the thing
.From what I understand, Brix is correlated to taste. That means sweet grapes taste better, a wine with less water gets richer and better (if you like a heavy Médoc for example). As you said, how and if the winemaker can handle that is something else.
poolplayer
Member
There are huge variations in the final brix of grapes when picked. White zins can be picked as low as 18 brix while some reds are left out until at almost 30 brix if the winemaker feels they need more time for phenolics and tannins to be fully developed. If the fruit has a lot of raisins, the brix will rise even higher in the tank. Having to throw water in the tank to get a more reasonable brix for fermentation isn't ideal, but better than picking too early and not getting fully developed tannins, etc...
When the final brix gets in the high 20's to over 30 brix, only certain yeasts can fully ferment the sugars before the alcohol level is too high for them to survive. Residual sugar and that point isn't always bad, sometimes a winemaker will arrest fermentation on purpose with sulfur dioxide to achieve a certain level of remaining sugar.
You can multiply the brix by .56 and ballpark the final alcohol level if the sugar ferments all the way out. 30 brix means you're well above 16% alcohol and many yeasts just stop working.
Typically winemakers for reds and chardonnays will want to have the wine undergo malolactic fermentation when the sugar is very low. When this secondary fermentation is complete, they can hit it with sulfur dioxide and breathe easier knowing they are far more protected from bad microorganisms that can ruin the wine.
Other whites like Sauvignon Blanc, Viogner, Pinot Gris are usually sulfured to prevent the malolactic fermentation.
Soil makes a huge difference. Even in the same vineyard with the same vines, they may be picked at different times because one block of the vineyard matures differently than the other.
Sonoma and Napa counties are right next to each other, but certain varietals are grown far more in one or the other areas.
Damn this post is getting long. I'll end it with a little story:
I was in the lab and there were some glasses of wine by the sink where they usually are when a tasting has been completed. Dumped them and put the glasses in the dishwasher.
Turns out one was a glass of Screaming Eagle cab that sells for anywhere from 1000 to over 3000 bucks a freaking bottle.
Almost certainly my one chance in life to taste that wine and I just poured it out.
When the final brix gets in the high 20's to over 30 brix, only certain yeasts can fully ferment the sugars before the alcohol level is too high for them to survive. Residual sugar and that point isn't always bad, sometimes a winemaker will arrest fermentation on purpose with sulfur dioxide to achieve a certain level of remaining sugar.
You can multiply the brix by .56 and ballpark the final alcohol level if the sugar ferments all the way out. 30 brix means you're well above 16% alcohol and many yeasts just stop working.
Typically winemakers for reds and chardonnays will want to have the wine undergo malolactic fermentation when the sugar is very low. When this secondary fermentation is complete, they can hit it with sulfur dioxide and breathe easier knowing they are far more protected from bad microorganisms that can ruin the wine.
Other whites like Sauvignon Blanc, Viogner, Pinot Gris are usually sulfured to prevent the malolactic fermentation.
Soil makes a huge difference. Even in the same vineyard with the same vines, they may be picked at different times because one block of the vineyard matures differently than the other.
Sonoma and Napa counties are right next to each other, but certain varietals are grown far more in one or the other areas.
Damn this post is getting long. I'll end it with a little story:
I was in the lab and there were some glasses of wine by the sink where they usually are when a tasting has been completed. Dumped them and put the glasses in the dishwasher.
Turns out one was a glass of Screaming Eagle cab that sells for anywhere from 1000 to over 3000 bucks a freaking bottle.
Almost certainly my one chance in life to taste that wine and I just poured it out.
Completely OT but very interesting and the anecdote is hilarious!!
-
