DabLab Reloaded-- back to vertville

[DabOnDabs]

With elevated Co2, if I recall right, water use efficiency generally increases significantly. I think there is a copy of a scientific study on cannabis linked on this site somewhere that shows that. I make the uneducated assumption based on that that elevated Co2 environment all else equal would mean the plants would prefer somewhat higher EC nutrient concentration than at natural Co2 levels.

Also have always assumed (no real facts to base this on) that the best EC depends on vapor pressure deficit so what works best can really vary from one to another. Since plants drink a lot more water for the same amount of growth when the VPD is high... (hot, low humidity) a lower EC in a high VPD environment or higher EC in a low VPD environment makes sense.

Do either of these views make sense to yall? Wondering if I'm off base here. I know practically nothing about botany

Thank you both for your well thought out and articulated responses, i appreciate it. My observations of VPD are this; Either I missed the warning signs, or pretty much over night my plants were pissed and suffering from VPD. To these ends, I believe my plants pretty much stopped drinking in general.

Your theory makes sense, and my VPD certainly could have been caused by my low feed, high light/temp, low humidity situation. It would be an interesting hypothesis to test.

 

[DabOnDabs]

Im gonna stick it out with the jacks. Mister D believes elevated P levels needed for cannabis are a myth, and the jacks has plenty of K along with the coco. I'll take a pic of my leaves tonight for you guys, but the buds are finally starting to fill out.

I think im just a couple days behind because of the issues i've had. No signs of hermies though, so thats a good sign. If problems develop, then I'll fix it, but right now its pretty much doing its thing for 90% of the girls.

One thing I was also noticing last night, is that the slight yellowing is ONLY on leaves closest to the light. Even with the training and the trellis, there are branches sticking out that are 12-14'' from the light in places. The slight yellowing that I'm seeing could be light bleaching because EVERY leaf away from the light is succulent and healthy. Or i could have a Ca def, we'll see

 

[DHF]

Light bleaching usually shows up as yas said , but the leaves will literally "bleach out" and get opaque/whitish once completely fried , and hey....

As I said earlier.....Try not to chase issues , but rather stay on point to see if they start to progress and THEN adjust as needed.....

Peace.....Freds..........

 

[papaduc]

Respect once again for explainin things a WHOLE lot more in laymen`s terms rather than my long winded old ass just personal experience from yrs gone by ....

It's all it ever is fella. It's just experience (and a touch of cynicism) which has seen me go from brand/hydro focused, back down to the basics. Growing weed has got me into growing in general, and growing in general give me a better understanding of every part of the process really; not on a scientific level, but in terms of intuition - just the feel that growing cannabis isn't a special formula, that it's just another plant. It's a reciprocal thing and without doubt when you get more into gardening in general you feel that benefit. I did anyway.

Maybe papaduc can give us a more scientific type explanation as to what you ask

Hey bollocks I ain't no scientist, but thanks anyway

Seriously, with regards to things like VPD, and the effects of nutrient balances at different levels of humidity, I can't give anything more than an opinion.... the thing is, neither can anyone else.

We can give our own experiences, but that's often no more than anecdotal.

I mean, what is the exact effect, and why?

I've grown plants in high heat and low humidity, and I've never had the symptoms that people associate directly with that kind of environment. All that tells me is there must be something else different other than the environment.

When I see people say "high or low vpd caused this" I question if something else is involved as well. I believe there is something else to do with it, and that a low or high humidity alone won't be the solitary direct cause of those problems.

But then again, maybe in some cases it is. I wouldn't rule that out either. It's all about keeping an open mind and learning, which is why in a thread like this I'll watch to see how Dabs' buds develop and mature on a 3-1-4 feed or whatever it is.

When I said before that I had experience with the plant magic feed, I talked to Oldtimer about it. He told me nobody else had reported the problem...

So I had a look around. I tried to find as many grow diaries with people using the coco bloom feed as I could... And almost every time, the same thing showed up - clear signs of excess nitrogen in the buds. Very obvious signs.

It got to the point where I could see a picture in a gallery, and know straight away it was grown with PM coco. And when I clicked and followed it back to the diary... it was.. the light came on and I knew I was right.

But when you read people's comments in the diaries, it was all praise.

This is the thing; there's no accounting for taste, or knowledge. There were no reports because people didn't know anything was wrong. Same reason you go online for a restaurant review and see loads of 4 star places to eat out. A lot of people don't know fresh cooked from packet food.

When people give an opinion on something you've got to remember it's not your room, and it's not your grow. No matter what they say on a screen you can't know everything. You can only follow what's there. There are so many variables it's hard to nail it down to just one thing. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT] I'm skeptical when I see reports of low or high VPD being directly to blame for a problem. But that's all. I'm not ruling anything out either.

 

[DabOnDabs]

It's all it ever is fella. It's just experience (and a touch of natural cynicism) which has seen me go from brand slave right back down to the basics. Growing weed has got me into growing in general, and growing in general give me a better understanding of every part of the process really; not on a scientific level, but in terms of intuition - just the feel that growing cannabis isn't a special formula, that it's just another plant. It's a reciprocal thing and without doubt when you get more into gardening in general you feel that benefit. I did anyway.



Hey bollocks, I ain't no scientist View Image

Seriously though, with regards to things like VPD, and the effects of nutrient balances at different levels of humidity, I can't give anything more than an opinion.... the thing is, neither can anyone else.

We can give our own experiences, but that's often no more than anecdotal.

I mean, what is the exact effect, and why?

I've grown plants in high heat and low humidity, and I've never had the symptoms that people associate directly with that kind of environment. All that tells me is there must be something else different other than the environment.

When I see people say "high or low vpd caused this" I question if something else is involved as well. I believe there is something else to do with it, and that a low or high humidity alone won't be the solitary direct cause of those problems.

But then again, maybe in some cases it is. I wouldn't rule that out either. It's all about keeping an open mind and learning, which is why in a thread like this I'll watch to see how Dabs' buds develop and mature on a 3-1-4 feed or whatever it is.

When I said before that I had experience with the plant magic feed, I talked to Oldtimer about it. He told me nobody else had reported the problem...

So I had a look around. I tried to find as many grow diaries with people using the coco bloom feed as I could... And almost every time, the same thing showed up - clear signs of excess nitrogen in the buds. Very obvious signs.

It got to the point where I could see a picture in a gallery, and know straight away it was grown with PM coco. And when I clicked and followed it back to the diary... it was.. the light came on and I knew I was right.

But when you read people's comments in the diaries, it was all praise.

This is the thing; there's no accounting for taste, or knowledge. There were no reports because people didn't know anything was wrong. Same reason you go online for a restaurant review and see loads of 4 star places to eat out. A lot of people don't know fresh cooked from packet food.

When people give an opinion on something you've got to remember it's not your room, and it's not your grow. No matter what they say on a screen you can't know everything. You can only follow what's there. There are so many variables it's hard to nail it down to just one thing.

I'm skeptical when I see reports of low or high VPD being directly to blame for a problem. But that's all. I'm not ruling anything out either.

That is why I love the vertical section on this forum. Everywhere else it seems that there is so much love and praise, but a simple observation of the leaves/buds/room conditions/etc in peoples pics have me screaming "YO YOU HAVE FUCKING ISSUES".

Here on the other hand, it seems there are quite a few educated, and experience growers who have done it their own way before. IME, Experience > Science, every single time. However, being able to research, understand, and apply scientific and botanical concepts to their experience creates the difference between good and great. See Heath Robinson, MrDizzle, d9, etc. Here in vertville, everyones got the experience and the science, and reasons why they agree or disagree with this, that or the other. Similarly, you vertheads are all critics. Anyone notice how much bobble and mister d and those guys bicker about the way their plants look. Also throwing disclaimers out there like "Yo i know there is one leaf in the pic that isnt perfectly healthy, but i accidentally shot it with a nerf gun this morning" because they know the homies are about to come in and eat their lunch...

I'de rather some constructive criticism and someone say, well, it looks pretty good but you have _____, ______, and _____ to keep working on, than someone say wow it looks great(when it looks okay).

To further elaborate on your VPD hypothesis, over in the Coco Section IC OVO has a 12 Light Coco thread. Now, in the environment, we all know there are three factors; Temperature, Humidity, and CO2. ICOVO was attributing some of his feed problems to a mismatch between the ec and the Co2 ppm. I cant remember the relational effect, but it was along the lines of "800ppm CO2 was too much for 1.2 ec, maybe for 1.4"

This hypothesis, and his eventual solution COMPLETELY back up your theory. If C02 can play such a role in the way plants eat, one would think the same rule could be applied to the relationship between temp and humidity(VPD)

 

[papaduc]

Im gonna stick it out with the jacks. Mister D believes elevated P levels needed for cannabis are a myth, and the jacks has plenty of K along with the coco.

Do you know what ratio is Mister D using?

Probably the most important thing, and something I haven't just said in blunt form, is that the most important thing of all is to know exactly what you're looking for when judging your flowers.

If this was a flower show and we had professional judges, probably the first thing they'd be looking for would be the leaf:bud ratio.

I'm interested to know what Mister D is using as his main feed, because I've just been looking at a diary of his, and, with total respect to MD, some of his plants are exhibiting very clear signs of excess nitrogen. Almost the exact same signs I used to see when I looked over plant magic-fed grows. I'm eager to know now what NPK ratio is in the feed he uses through flower.

I'm 100% sure that if he cuts back the N in his mix, he will see an overall improvement in the development of his buds and also he will be able to run to a 1.2 ec without seeing that kind of tip burn I think he is seeing at those concentrations. Nitrogen is the primary cause of that and the first thing that will give you problems if it is making up a large part of your EC.

The kind of issues which show up are very clear and if Mister D and yourself are ok with it I'd be grateful if I could take a few pictures from one of his diaries and post them in here and explain clearly exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[papaduc]

I'de rather some constructive criticism and someone say, well, it looks pretty good but you have _____, ______, and _____ to keep working on, than someone say wow it looks great(when it looks okay).

I agree. It's important to keep an open mind and keep listening and thinking about how to improve. I think online reputation - not the green marks but the actual on screen representation of you - plays a massive role. We develop a virtual ego and sometimes it makes critiquing things almost impossible.

A review or a judgement is a fundamental part of the growing and exhibition of our plants, which is what we're all essentially here to do.

 

[DabOnDabs]

Do you know what ratio is Mister D using?

Probably the most important thing, and something I haven't just said in blunt form, is that the most important thing of all is to know exactly what you're looking for when judging your flowers.

If this was a flower show and we had professional judges, probably the first thing they'd be looking for would be the leaf:bud ratio.

I'm interested to know what Mister D is using as his main feed, because I've just been looking at a diary of his, and, with total respect to MD, some of his plants are exhibiting very clear signs of excess nitrogen. Almost the exact same signs I used to see when I looked over plant magic-fed grows. I'm eager to know now what NPK ratio is in the feed he uses through flower.

I'm 100% sure that if he cuts back the N in his mix, he will see an overall improvement in the development of his buds and also he will be able to run to a 1.2 ec without seeing that kind of tip burn I think he is seeing at those concentrations. Nitrogen is the primary cause of that and the first thing that will give you problems if it is making up a large part of your EC.

The kind of issues which show up are very clear and if Mister D and yourself are ok with it I'd be grateful if I could take a few pictures from one of his diaries and post them in here and explain clearly exactly what I'm talking about.

Its cool with me if its cool w/ him, and I'm not sure if he's currently using it or not, but he recommended 2g/2g diluted down to 1.2-1.5 ec depending on needs. Its pretty much equal parts of Jacks + Calcnit by weight and PPM on a meter. The ratios that this comes up with i posted last page i think

Also, do you grow in coco? What nutes do you use, and do you mind posting some pics of your plants for reference?

 

[Shcrews]

those pics are fuckin huge haha. anyway your plants look great ! props man, i stayed out of the other thread cuz of all the drama but it looks like you are on the right track here. btw i like house&garden nutrients

peace!

 

[papaduc]

Its cool with me if its cool w/ him, and I'm not sure if he's currently using it or not, but he recommended 2g/2g diluted down to 1.2-1.5 ec depending on needs. Its pretty much equal parts of Jacks + Calcnit by weight and PPM on a meter. The ratios that this comes up with i posted last page i think

Also, do you grow in coco? What nutes do you use, and do you mind posting some pics of your plants for reference?

Yes I grow in coco and no I don't mind posting some pictures. My camera - or should I say the thing I'm stuck with for the minute - is a piece of shit which barely takes a reasonable picture. I need a new one. I'll treat myself soon.

 

[DabOnDabs]

Light bleaching usually shows up as yas said , but the leaves will literally "bleach out" and get opaque/whitish once completely fried , and hey....

As I said earlier.....Try not to chase issues , but rather stay on point to see if they start to progress and THEN adjust as needed.....

Peace.....Freds..........

But we dont want them to get bleached out so we tie them back away from the light

 

[DabOnDabs]

those pics are fuckin huge haha. anyway your plants look great ! props man, i stayed out of the other thread cuz of all the drama but it looks like you are on the right track here. btw i like house&garden nutrients

peace!

Okay, are all you guys surfing this site on like Pre 1999 compaq computers or dell's or something?

The pics are huge but they automatically resize on every device i've ever used, including my 7 year old mac laptop, my phone, my pc, my pc laptop, my ipad, etc. So they show up regular sized for me, and you can click them and then they become big....Idk what its like for yal...


So like, are they just showing up the size of a wall on your computer screen or what?

Thanks for stoppin in lol

 

[DHF]

LMAO....I like the big pics Dabs.....I`m old and appreciate the detail , but Shcrews MIGHT be surfin from his smartphone ?......dunno....

Go check out hydro-gardens.com and see what`s available to build your own juice blends with powdered concentrates that`s been good enough for Walt Disney World and 80% of all the corporate commercial hydroponic greenhouse veggie operations nationwide for more yrs than I`ve grown dope if you might be interested down the road....

Got several old heads on your end of the world that`ve been blendin their own mixes many yrs with dialed results , but they only sell in bulk , and even though it`s cheap for the base nutrients , it`s not cost effective unless yas plan to stay in production mode so as to utilize the minimum amounts they ship......anyways....

Thoughts to ponder....

Peace....DHF........

 

[papaduc]

Here yo go dabs.

I should have posted these before when I was talking about the plant magic nutes.

This is headband by Reserva Privada. Nice plant, but nitrogen sensitive.



Look at the fan leaf which is pointing upward. See the tip of it curling. That plant showed it was a low feeder in veg.

In flower I was using Hesi's bloom 8-6-10 feed. That was a 1-part nutrient which people would use right through veg and flower.

I changed the feed as soon as the tips clawed and before it got tip burn, and before the buds had set, so they weren't affected. The new growth was ok after that and the buds grew nicely. All I did was swap some of the base feed for some pk booster. That's all I did.

This is what happens when you don't catch it. It's a more stark example of what a nitrogen excess looks like, even when it doesn't get to the stage where it's burning your plants.



Can you see what I mean?

Look at the leaf development. That's a plant which is being fed something which is prompting it to put out thick foliage at the expense of bud.

This is the same strain when it's grown with a different formula



Now you've got nice big calyxes which aren't overpowered by leaf.

Leaf should take a back seat when the plant's in full bloom. When you see plants with thick green foliage, that's too much N.

 

[DabOnDabs]

LMAO....I like the big pics Dabs.....I`m old and appreciate the detail , but Shcrews MIGHT be surfin from his smartphone ?......dunno....

Go check out hydro-gardens.com and see what`s available to build your own juice blends with powdered concentrates that`s been good enough for Walt Disney World and 80% of all the corporate commercial hydroponic greenhouse veggie operations nationwide for more yrs than I`ve grown dope if you might be interested down the road....

Got several old heads on your end of the world that`ve been blendin their own mixes many yrs with dialed results , but they only sell in bulk , and even though it`s cheap for the base nutrients , it`s not cost effective unless yas plan to stay in production mode so as to utilize the minimum amounts they ship......anyways....

Thoughts to ponder....

Peace....DHF........

What sorta mixes we talkin about??

The second i put my first clone in the ground was the moment I knew this would never stop. Production mode is all it is; IT takes a shit load of weed to keep my circle's dab habits supplied. I have been thinking about jumping into mixing my own nutes. All it would take would be a quick 12 hour day in the library reading all of the things, and I'm sure I could figure it out..

But thats my problem. I'm always on to the next thing before I've had a chance to fine tune what I'm doing. We will see how the Jacks turns out, Its far from over. Also been wanting to hop on the ppk bandwagon. Looks like too much fun. 5x5 trees. YUP.

I was loving the LOVE MACHINES thread. What ever happened with that?

 

[DabOnDabs]

Here yo go dabs.

I should have posted these before when I was talking about the plant magic nutes.

This is headband by Reserva Privada. Nice plant, but nitrogen sensitive.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=49668&pictureid=1172012&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Look at the fan leaf which is pointing upward. See the tip of it curling. That plant showed it was a low feeder in veg.

In flower I was using Hesi's bloom 8-6-10 feed. That was a 1-part nutrient which people would use right through veg and flower.

I changed the feed as soon as the tips clawed and before it got tip burn, and before the buds had set, so they weren't affected. The new growth was ok after that and the buds grew nicely. All I did was swap some of the base feed for some pk booster. That's all I did.

This is what happens when you don't catch it. It's a more stark example of what a nitrogen excess looks like, even when it doesn't get to the stage where it's burning your plants.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=46124&pictureid=1190180&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Can you see what I mean?

Look at the leaf development. That's a plant which is being fed something which is prompting it to put out thick foliage at the expense of bud.

This is the same strain when it's grown with a different formula

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=49668&pictureid=1172030&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Now you've got nice big calyxes which aren't overpowered by leaf.

Leaf should take a back seat when the plant's in full bloom. When you see plants with thick green foliage, that's too much N.

.'

I see exactly what you mean. Thank you.

Im pretty sure Yosemite Sam said this, but i cant be 100% positive, but "theres also a school of thought that says, in nature, there is no way for a plant to change its feeding schedule (i.e. Dirt/water) during its cycle. It merely lives off what it has."

I can see his point of view, but also i would argue, nature isnt putting out 29% THC buds either. In other words, the way that we're doing it inside is different because it maximizes certain things that the plant needs whereas nature really doesnt have that ability. Idk, just a question.

 

[papaduc]

Someone quoted something recently, I can't remember who or what they were quoting, but it was along the lines of "you don't increase yield, you only minimise the loss of it"

Obviously you've got to understand the context, but it's the best way I've seen it put.

Cannabis is a broad range feeder and I believe you could be a few points over or under as long as one nutrient isn't spiking.

 

[DabOnDabs]

LMAO....I like the big pics Dabs.....I`m old and appreciate the detail , but Shcrews MIGHT be surfin from his smartphone ?......dunno....

Go check out hydro-gardens.com and see what`s available to build your own juice blends with powdered concentrates that`s been good enough for Walt Disney World and 80% of all the corporate commercial hydroponic greenhouse veggie operations nationwide for more yrs than I`ve grown dope if you might be interested down the road....

Got several old heads on your end of the world that`ve been blendin their own mixes many yrs with dialed results , but they only sell in bulk , and even though it`s cheap for the base nutrients , it`s not cost effective unless yas plan to stay in production mode so as to utilize the minimum amounts they ship......anyways....

Thoughts to ponder....

Peace....DHF........

checked out the site, this...

http://hydro-gardens.com/10822.htm

Is...uhh, for hobbies. 1-1-2. Perfect flowering recipe for cannabis no?


ahahahahhahahaha and then this:

Many of our commercial growers have asked if we can supply them with a hydroponic plant food they can sell to their customers that are growing in small greenhouses at home. We are pleased to offer the formula that these hobby growers will need listed below.

Thats fucking hilarious, so they drop a bud specific mix. <3 it

 

[DHF]

............I was never here.....this was never discussed....LOL.....but.....

When and if yas EVER got ta where yas wanted to check out the products , do NOT ask about cannabis specific blends , cuz they`re like NO SALE TO MMJ affiliated concerns on the forefront for their cover story , but....

Since yas had the knowledge ta notice what`s as plain as the nose on yer face with the hobby blend , thay KNOW what`s up when individuals order certain makeups and other such macro`s and micro`s ta be blended in aight ?.....anyways....

Things to consider down the road.....

Peace....Freds..........

 

[Shcrews]

Okay, are all you guys surfing this site on like Pre 1999 compaq computers or dell's or something?

The pics are huge but they automatically resize on every device i've ever used, including my 7 year old mac laptop, my phone, my pc, my pc laptop, my ipad, etc. So they show up regular sized for me, and you can click them and then they become big....Idk what its like for yal...


So like, are they just showing up the size of a wall on your computer screen or what?

Thanks for stoppin in lol

now they are showing up re-sized, so no worries. compaq computer LOL that was my first laptop. Lately ive been thinking about grabbing one of those new Mac Pro's, they look sick.

carry on...