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Organics & coco
- Thread starter stoneybud2
- Start date
stoneybud2
Member
stoneybud2
Member
Ok so I'm not 100% sure if I did the calculator right.
Wanted to see where I stood with GO feed schedule
My total N-135/P-47/K-91/Mg-26/Ca-66 now compared to H3ads numbers I'm off a lot.
And off of tokinblackguy's as well N-107/P-62/K-140/Mg-29/Ca-66. Not to bad compared to tbg's I guess.
This was full strength everything bio thrive grow/bio weed/bio root/CaMg.
Should be easy enough to lower my N but adjusting the p and k with a line such as this how would one go about doing so.
I'm gonna go do some playing n see what I can't come up with.
SB2
Wanted to see where I stood with GO feed schedule
My total N-135/P-47/K-91/Mg-26/Ca-66 now compared to H3ads numbers I'm off a lot.
And off of tokinblackguy's as well N-107/P-62/K-140/Mg-29/Ca-66. Not to bad compared to tbg's I guess.
This was full strength everything bio thrive grow/bio weed/bio root/CaMg.
Should be easy enough to lower my N but adjusting the p and k with a line such as this how would one go about doing so.
I'm gonna go do some playing n see what I can't come up with.
SB2
stoneybud2
Member
Well if I'm using that calculator right I have got myself to
N109/P51/K139/Mg20/Ca66
At ratios of
5ml per gal grow
5ml bio root
2.5ml bio weed
5ml CaMg
8.5ml Si
10ml bio marine
Anyone feel this feeding plan is a bad idea lol. I've never done anything like this.
SB2
N109/P51/K139/Mg20/Ca66
At ratios of
5ml per gal grow
5ml bio root
2.5ml bio weed
5ml CaMg
8.5ml Si
10ml bio marine
Anyone feel this feeding plan is a bad idea lol. I've never done anything like this.
SB2
stoneybud2
Member
Shit going through some previous posts n threads. I have seemed to match / come close to the "flower" feeding plan so that was a waste of time. Lol. Can some one help me on where I'd like to be as far as NPK CaMg ratios.
Ima gonna start with the flower one now for Christ sake.
SB2.
Ima gonna start with the flower one now for Christ sake.
SB2.
what's up, just got done reading your thread. I too am trying to grow organic with coco as a base. i've only done 2 grows in it so far but i'll share my knowledge with you.
i see you're ph'ing and mixing ratios and shit and imho if you are going for full on water only you gotta move away from all that. #1 if you are doing organic you will have lime in your mix which keeps the ph around 6.5-7.1ish. bottom line on that is it keeps the ph where it should be so you can do away with all that ph unless you just want to, or you think your mix might be too base or acidic which can happen if you overdo any one element. like adding too much lime (calcium and magnesium) which will make the ph be real high.
but anyway the mix i have tried the first time was a variation of h3ads. i don't ever copy any mix 100% and you shouldn't either. you need to tailor it to your specific growing condition. start by looking at their mix and learning the different types of natural soil then learn how plants grow their roots, marijuana in particular, sativa vs indica. for me i grow in small pots, i need a mix that's light enough to dry out in no more than 2-3 days, but it also needs to hold enough moisture so that i don't have to keep watering it and need to set up drips and hoses and shit.
I grow micro and i need to be as stealth as possible so less noise the better, less space needed better. I mixed 40% coco, like 40% compost, 5% perlite and 5% EWC the first time. that mix was really good for drainage and ease. the amendments i added got me till like week 6 both for veg and flower when i transplanted. after that i need to feed, i didn't get that part and yields suffered. i was using tea which i learned was too weak afterwards so if you're gonna go this route you might be able to do it but i think you gotta use the tea every water. which i also didn't do.
last try i don't have room to make tea and whatnot so i did a different mix. 50%coco, 45%EWC, 5% perlite. worked pretty well with just water +molasses but learning from last time i also watered with guano once a week, that didn't help with the N and i saw a K def all through beginning weeks of flower. i didn't add much for K in my amendments since they tell me coco is super duper high in K which is why you need so much cal/mag, the K in coco locks it out.
i use fish emulsion for the N, it has a little bit that fast releases but the rest will take 2+ weeks before you see it available. it also has a ton of everything you need for your plants. if you haven't had a look at the infirmary yet you should make yourself familiar with the sick plants guide. it has a chart that can teach you to read plants. which is really all you need to grow great weed. if you know what plants want and what they look like when they want more of any specific thing then you don't need to mix formulas and shit. just know whats in whatever you are gonna feed the plants with and how much they need on a general baseline. I got some kelp too which provides a lot of K should you need it but it also has N and is fast release and seems like it's good to foliar spray once in a while all through flowering.
my biggest issue is still overwatering. this mix i used last drys fast enough but it's too cold and the bottom was staying too wet and roots were dying. the biggest part of it is actually the watering. some people say keep watering as often as possible, others are like treat it like soil. so far i can tell you that its not exactly either of those. its more like. KNOW YOUR MIX. you will have to feel it out learn how the mix you made dries out when theres nothing in it. i would suggest have an empty container with your mix, water it, and let it dry at whatever rate it dries at. learn how it dries in your particular pot. Yeah coco is light and fluffy and holds air and all that good shit. but you're growing in pots with One big hole at the top and X amount of LITTLE holes in the bottom.
if the mix stays wet longer in one area and dries really fast in another, you need to know that.
the point of all that is, tailor your mix to yourself, how you need it. light mix with lots of perlite and whatnot if you're gonna treat it like hydro, and a more dense mix if you're gonna try and treat it like soil. you can do the organic coco thing i'm sure of it not only based on my own experiences but from reading other people who have done it with success. i can't think of anything specific right now but check out the organics forum, and search for organic coco threads. most of em are semi like what we're doing now, but there's a few that are doing straight water/tea like i hope to get to.
i don't wanna have to mix bottled nutes, you don't need all those bottles and stuff i hear being touted. you don't need silica blast and cal/mag or sweet or bcuzz(i'm just throwing names now), or whatever.
1.) just read the sick plants guide and learn what women want
compare that with the labels on the back of those bottles you have around you.
2.) learn about different soil types and how it will work in your environment
3.) learn how to water.
that's not a knock i've got over 10 years exp overwatering plants. microgrows is srs bzns.
those plants you have up there are not bad, but a few are suffering, mostly overwatering and i saw at least one with mag def. i would adjust the amount of time between waterings a little and cut back a little on the N.
you can grow awesome weed with nothing more than
$2 brick of coco
$1.50 bag of compost from case de pot
$5 bottle of alaska fish
$5 bag of garden lime which will last you like years.
$5 bag of bone meal which will last you about half as long as the lime
if you recycle your mix and just re ammend it, which is mostly gonna involve adding more lime and or perlite then you can grow for over a year on $20.
i see you're ph'ing and mixing ratios and shit and imho if you are going for full on water only you gotta move away from all that. #1 if you are doing organic you will have lime in your mix which keeps the ph around 6.5-7.1ish. bottom line on that is it keeps the ph where it should be so you can do away with all that ph unless you just want to, or you think your mix might be too base or acidic which can happen if you overdo any one element. like adding too much lime (calcium and magnesium) which will make the ph be real high.
but anyway the mix i have tried the first time was a variation of h3ads. i don't ever copy any mix 100% and you shouldn't either. you need to tailor it to your specific growing condition. start by looking at their mix and learning the different types of natural soil then learn how plants grow their roots, marijuana in particular, sativa vs indica. for me i grow in small pots, i need a mix that's light enough to dry out in no more than 2-3 days, but it also needs to hold enough moisture so that i don't have to keep watering it and need to set up drips and hoses and shit.
I grow micro and i need to be as stealth as possible so less noise the better, less space needed better. I mixed 40% coco, like 40% compost, 5% perlite and 5% EWC the first time. that mix was really good for drainage and ease. the amendments i added got me till like week 6 both for veg and flower when i transplanted. after that i need to feed, i didn't get that part and yields suffered. i was using tea which i learned was too weak afterwards so if you're gonna go this route you might be able to do it but i think you gotta use the tea every water. which i also didn't do.
last try i don't have room to make tea and whatnot so i did a different mix. 50%coco, 45%EWC, 5% perlite. worked pretty well with just water +molasses but learning from last time i also watered with guano once a week, that didn't help with the N and i saw a K def all through beginning weeks of flower. i didn't add much for K in my amendments since they tell me coco is super duper high in K which is why you need so much cal/mag, the K in coco locks it out.
i use fish emulsion for the N, it has a little bit that fast releases but the rest will take 2+ weeks before you see it available. it also has a ton of everything you need for your plants. if you haven't had a look at the infirmary yet you should make yourself familiar with the sick plants guide. it has a chart that can teach you to read plants. which is really all you need to grow great weed. if you know what plants want and what they look like when they want more of any specific thing then you don't need to mix formulas and shit. just know whats in whatever you are gonna feed the plants with and how much they need on a general baseline. I got some kelp too which provides a lot of K should you need it but it also has N and is fast release and seems like it's good to foliar spray once in a while all through flowering.
my biggest issue is still overwatering. this mix i used last drys fast enough but it's too cold and the bottom was staying too wet and roots were dying. the biggest part of it is actually the watering. some people say keep watering as often as possible, others are like treat it like soil. so far i can tell you that its not exactly either of those. its more like. KNOW YOUR MIX. you will have to feel it out learn how the mix you made dries out when theres nothing in it. i would suggest have an empty container with your mix, water it, and let it dry at whatever rate it dries at. learn how it dries in your particular pot. Yeah coco is light and fluffy and holds air and all that good shit. but you're growing in pots with One big hole at the top and X amount of LITTLE holes in the bottom.
if the mix stays wet longer in one area and dries really fast in another, you need to know that.
the point of all that is, tailor your mix to yourself, how you need it. light mix with lots of perlite and whatnot if you're gonna treat it like hydro, and a more dense mix if you're gonna try and treat it like soil. you can do the organic coco thing i'm sure of it not only based on my own experiences but from reading other people who have done it with success. i can't think of anything specific right now but check out the organics forum, and search for organic coco threads. most of em are semi like what we're doing now, but there's a few that are doing straight water/tea like i hope to get to.
i don't wanna have to mix bottled nutes, you don't need all those bottles and stuff i hear being touted. you don't need silica blast and cal/mag or sweet or bcuzz(i'm just throwing names now), or whatever.
1.) just read the sick plants guide and learn what women want
compare that with the labels on the back of those bottles you have around you.2.) learn about different soil types and how it will work in your environment
3.) learn how to water.
that's not a knock i've got over 10 years exp overwatering plants. microgrows is srs bzns.
those plants you have up there are not bad, but a few are suffering, mostly overwatering and i saw at least one with mag def. i would adjust the amount of time between waterings a little and cut back a little on the N.
you can grow awesome weed with nothing more than
$2 brick of coco
$1.50 bag of compost from case de pot
$5 bottle of alaska fish
$5 bag of garden lime which will last you like years.
$5 bag of bone meal which will last you about half as long as the lime
if you recycle your mix and just re ammend it, which is mostly gonna involve adding more lime and or perlite then you can grow for over a year on $20.
all these are overwatered. the pic below this one is slightly overwatered too and the one with the yellow and green striped leaves is mag def coming on.Alright finally some pics. Nothing special. And a little sad/confused
The pictures with the 5 in are gsc not happy either
Ph in-5.7 ph out- 5.9
Still feeding full line of GO.
Tent temp 70
And not ph'in solution
Next pics of the 2. Are purple bomb I have 4 that are good
All specs are the same as above
SB2
the third pic is the best looking but one of those is slightly overwater too.
i don't recall you saying your mix but with pots the way pots are if you are using finer grades of coco vs more coarse i would keep it a little less moist. i find watering just enough to keep the plants at close to dry worked better. also keeps the gnats away. also i would stop dropping the ph so low, might be the cause of your lockouts vs my suspicion of your overwatering. are you using all coco? cuz if it's not all coco you should stop treating it like hydro and phing the nutes.
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stoneybud2
Member
Thanx for the info.
Coco perlite 50/50 is the mix.
The hurting ladies I was just gonna water b4 I snapped pics. Passed out early n missed my watering. They were dry.
I'm not touching my ph. I'm mixing my nutes and watering.
SB2
stoneybud2
Member
Alright I think I may have come up with a nute regiment plan here for veg.
But I think the n may be too low. But here are 4 I've calculated
N127/P124/K100/Mg26/Ca66
N148/P130/K113/Mg29/Ca66
N180/P141/K133/Mg33/Ca66
N193/P227/K138/Mg33/Ca66.
SB2
But I think the n may be too low. But here are 4 I've calculated
N127/P124/K100/Mg26/Ca66
N148/P130/K113/Mg29/Ca66
N180/P141/K133/Mg33/Ca66
N193/P227/K138/Mg33/Ca66.
SB2
i'm afraid i dunno what all that means. but i do know that you want the leaves to be deep green and have nice veins. don't want it so dark that it looks blue or blackish, not so light they look yellow and start falling off. they should stick more or less straight out as far as fingers are concerned. keep em looking like that for most of the grow till bout week 7-8-9 depending on the strain and then stop feeding and do plain water till you harvest.
plants like a lot of N at veg time and during the first 6-8 weeks of flower from weeks 1- end they like a nice amount of K, like 1:1 with N some plants like a lot of P some a little is too much. but you usually shoot for 2x amount of P as N in flower. magnesium is crucial during the first 4-6 weeks of flower, calcium all the way through. you always wanna keep your micros up as they keep the major elements working. most nutes that supply N will have all the micros you need for the whole grow, everytime you add N you are adding micros. usual exception being cal, mag, iron, sulfur which you can get by adding lime and molasses. whole nute regiment rounded out from compost for N and K, some lime for the mag and cal, water with molasses and you add in more K cal, some mag, and fe.
i'm sure someone will come along who can better understand those numbers and help ya more. are those ratios? looks good i would double the P. oldest most basic ratio i know of is 321 132. in veg you want 3 parts N/ 2 parts P/ 1 parts K. in flower you do 1 part N/ 3 parts P/ 2 parts K. those are just general guidelines just like the label on the back of a bottle, and your tables up there pardon my arrogance. the best way to grow is to learn how plants talk, grow a strain with some general guidelines based on what plants need or the ratios above then on the second time around do what the plant told you it liked most.
the formulas you have may work for one of those strains you have just perfect but the other strains might hate it. if you don't know how to listen to the plants then you will just be wasting your time adjusting willy nilly here and there. as you fix one problem you will just be making another one. lol i guess it's sorta like fantasia. just flashed in my head as i was writing that last sentence.
that's something you can take into consideration for the next grow i guess?
plants like a lot of N at veg time and during the first 6-8 weeks of flower from weeks 1- end they like a nice amount of K, like 1:1 with N some plants like a lot of P some a little is too much. but you usually shoot for 2x amount of P as N in flower. magnesium is crucial during the first 4-6 weeks of flower, calcium all the way through. you always wanna keep your micros up as they keep the major elements working. most nutes that supply N will have all the micros you need for the whole grow, everytime you add N you are adding micros. usual exception being cal, mag, iron, sulfur which you can get by adding lime and molasses. whole nute regiment rounded out from compost for N and K, some lime for the mag and cal, water with molasses and you add in more K cal, some mag, and fe.
i'm sure someone will come along who can better understand those numbers and help ya more. are those ratios? looks good i would double the P. oldest most basic ratio i know of is 321 132. in veg you want 3 parts N/ 2 parts P/ 1 parts K. in flower you do 1 part N/ 3 parts P/ 2 parts K. those are just general guidelines just like the label on the back of a bottle, and your tables up there pardon my arrogance. the best way to grow is to learn how plants talk, grow a strain with some general guidelines based on what plants need or the ratios above then on the second time around do what the plant told you it liked most.
the formulas you have may work for one of those strains you have just perfect but the other strains might hate it. if you don't know how to listen to the plants then you will just be wasting your time adjusting willy nilly here and there. as you fix one problem you will just be making another one. lol i guess it's sorta like fantasia. just flashed in my head as i was writing that last sentence.
that's something you can take into consideration for the next grow i guess?
stoneybud2
Member
Yeah those are the make up using the calculator at 5ml this 2.5 that If your digesting I make a dif nute plan got each plant fk that. I'll go back to synth
SB2
SB2
nah what i'm suggesting is that in organics you don't need to make up a nute schedule, you just watch the plants and if they need more of one thing than another then you give them that. they only take what they need so you don't have to worry about whether or not you are underfeeding or over feeding. just keep them happy and they will do what comes natural.
stoneybud2
Member
See that's where my troubles begin Sir I'm new to orgsnics. And from what I can tell already is they don't act like synth nutes n finding but harder to say hey you do need a lil more this n that. That could also be because this is my first trial with this brand. I've had great results with gh3. Why I change bored after 6 yrs running it.
Then hitting it with coco lol which all n all ain't too hard to grow in. Well wasn't with synth nutes. Anyways. Along side I've never ran these 2 strains b4. So I'm running pretty much blind.
I'm gonna go back to my roots n hope for the best. What pissed me off the most is my host are happy green praying at the light. And gsc is in there. N almost seems like a ph issue. I water by hand n feel n have been raised to do so. IMHO best and easiest way. So over watering I know is not an issue.
But more ph lock out n N toxity. Vs my pb that could use more N.
In due time I didn't expect to hit it right first time round. But I also didn't think I'd have these problems either. Lol. Either way I'm gonna run some water through em tonight cal/mag n ph 5.9-6.0. I've been stepping out of my zone n like you say stick with "a" plan n watch n alter.
Thanx
SB2
Then hitting it with coco lol which all n all ain't too hard to grow in. Well wasn't with synth nutes. Anyways. Along side I've never ran these 2 strains b4. So I'm running pretty much blind.
I'm gonna go back to my roots n hope for the best. What pissed me off the most is my host are happy green praying at the light. And gsc is in there. N almost seems like a ph issue. I water by hand n feel n have been raised to do so. IMHO best and easiest way. So over watering I know is not an issue.
But more ph lock out n N toxity. Vs my pb that could use more N.
In due time I didn't expect to hit it right first time round. But I also didn't think I'd have these problems either. Lol. Either way I'm gonna run some water through em tonight cal/mag n ph 5.9-6.0. I've been stepping out of my zone n like you say stick with "a" plan n watch n alter.
Thanx
SB2
tokinblackguy
Active member
Give me a few to play around with the numbers stoney, busy with work today. Of first glance of your breakdown though, N and P are too high. I still have the breakdown for some of the GO line but some of the others you are using, I will have to look up the nutrient values again. If I were you, I would flush out that medium with very mild nutrient solution before going into bloom. If things aren't correct now, blooming them at this point would only compound your issues. I can't really tell from the pics, but it looks like you are experiencing some sort of lockout which is why I suggested a thorough flush. Let them rebound from the flush, and feed half strength for a couple days. When growth returns to normal, then you can begin with regular nute schedule and flower.
Also keep in mind that there is no real "VEG" or "BLOOM" feeding when using the Lucas/H3ad modified formula. Bloom is triggered by the light schedule. The only thing different you might add are bloom boosters but the basic formula stays the same throughout.
Give me a few to see what I can come up with, might be a good idea to refresh the H3ad thread also. It's long I know but worth the read. If anything, just browse it for only post made by H3ad.
Also keep in mind that there is no real "VEG" or "BLOOM" feeding when using the Lucas/H3ad modified formula. Bloom is triggered by the light schedule. The only thing different you might add are bloom boosters but the basic formula stays the same throughout.
Give me a few to see what I can come up with, might be a good idea to refresh the H3ad thread also. It's long I know but worth the read. If anything, just browse it for only post made by H3ad.
stoneybud2
Member
Yeah flush is on my "to do" list I can achieve H3ads plan with gh3 I got kicking around.
But getting it to those specs with the organic was tricky if I was doing it right lol.
I'm gonna give them a few more days.
And I thank you for the time n help you are putting in.
SB2
But getting it to those specs with the organic was tricky if I was doing it right lol.
I'm gonna give them a few more days.
And I thank you for the time n help you are putting in.
SB2
tokinblackguy
Active member
OK, I've played with the numbers a few different ways, and given the nutes you have on hand, these are the best I could come up with in terms of simplicity and ratios:
All measurements are per Gal.
2 tsp/10mL - Bloom
1/2 tsp/2.5mL - Grow
1 tsp/5mL - CaMg
gives nute profile of : 96N-66.5P-147K-24Mg-66Ca
This ratio is just about spot on for coco, except that Mg is low. Easy and cheap fix is to add Epsom Salt, available everywhere.
+1g Epsom gives : 96N-66.5P-147K-56Mg-66Ca, plus some added sulfur. <---just about perfect
Now we still have to take into account your Si additive, which also helps with pH. Not sure which product you have but most have somewhere between 2 and 3% K so I would use sparingly. I used DynaGro Protekt, it has 3%K and like 7 or 8% Si so I would use 1/2 tsp which would only add 20K. If yours has more K, I would use less. If it has less K, I'd use more. As for your other nutes like Bio-Weed/Marine, I would not use at all, or alternate uses with each feeding, but not both together. 1tsp Bio-Weed, 1/2 tsp Bio-Marine alternated shouldn't throw the formula off too much.
Now to bring your plants and medium back in line, I would mix up a batch and the dilute it to 1/4 strength or basically turning 1Gal. into 4. Use this to flush your medium, you don't want to flush coco with plain water, especially with plants your size. Although I don't know how much this changes considering you're running a 50/50 cocoerlite mix but I would still assume the coco would buffer out better and rinse out most of any built up salts.
How long does your medium retain moisture? How longs does it take to almost dry out and how many times are you feeding? Would you say they become dry 1, 2, or 3 times a day? If I missed it earlier, what size pots are you using?
All measurements are per Gal.
2 tsp/10mL - Bloom
1/2 tsp/2.5mL - Grow
1 tsp/5mL - CaMg
gives nute profile of : 96N-66.5P-147K-24Mg-66Ca
This ratio is just about spot on for coco, except that Mg is low. Easy and cheap fix is to add Epsom Salt, available everywhere.
+1g Epsom gives : 96N-66.5P-147K-56Mg-66Ca, plus some added sulfur. <---just about perfect
Now we still have to take into account your Si additive, which also helps with pH. Not sure which product you have but most have somewhere between 2 and 3% K so I would use sparingly. I used DynaGro Protekt, it has 3%K and like 7 or 8% Si so I would use 1/2 tsp which would only add 20K. If yours has more K, I would use less. If it has less K, I'd use more. As for your other nutes like Bio-Weed/Marine, I would not use at all, or alternate uses with each feeding, but not both together. 1tsp Bio-Weed, 1/2 tsp Bio-Marine alternated shouldn't throw the formula off too much.
Now to bring your plants and medium back in line, I would mix up a batch and the dilute it to 1/4 strength or basically turning 1Gal. into 4. Use this to flush your medium, you don't want to flush coco with plain water, especially with plants your size. Although I don't know how much this changes considering you're running a 50/50 coco
erlite mix but I would still assume the coco would buffer out better and rinse out most of any built up salts.How long does your medium retain moisture? How longs does it take to almost dry out and how many times are you feeding? Would you say they become dry 1, 2, or 3 times a day? If I missed it earlier, what size pots are you using?
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tokinblackguy
Active member
*Also note* If you use the Silica, add it to your water first and mix around before adding any other nutes. And what Silica product are you using? Most come with some K, so that would change things a bit.
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stoneybud2
Member
Yeah I'm no where near "full organic". But from my reading I was thinking of testing out few pots with a mixture but nothing major due to intent to bottle feed as well at low dose.
But first I have a few bumps to get over. I already do miss the use of synth. But I have qt size of the line n gotta use em. I've got 2 tents running flower so I'm gonna play with organics in the one tent n synth in the othe. Feel a lot more at home I guess u could say.
SB2
But first I have a few bumps to get over. I already do miss the use of synth. But I have qt size of the line n gotta use em. I've got 2 tents running flower so I'm gonna play with organics in the one tent n synth in the othe. Feel a lot more at home I guess u could say.
SB2
stoneybud2
Member
I was going to go with Armor Si by GH.
I haven't got it yet store in town had nothing.
SB2
