Organics & coco

[dansbuds]

use the silica as a ph up . you said it comes out to 3.9 - 4.3 when mixed .... add just enough silica to your mix to bring the PH up to 5.7 & let it drift from there . if your hand feeding right after mixing , use the silica to bring it up to 5.9 then feed it . 5.9 is the sweet spot for coco's PH . to bring the PH up in your mix with the silica , just add a few drops at a time & retest till you get it where you want it . that willgive you an idea how much you need every time to bring the PH up .

silica can be had in botanicares Silica Blast or dynagrows Protekt .those are about the cheapest & easiest to use . the protekt is a little more concentrated & you'll use less of it .

 

[stoneybud2]

Thanx dansbuds
Yeah when first mixed it's really low. But when bubbling drifted up to 7.+
I'll be picking some up Friday.
Last grow I was 5.8-6.0 ph. Would me ph'ing and hand watering be the "hydro" side of coco vs mixing and watering no ph'ing. (Like soil application) speaking organics of coarse.
Really appreciate your help you guys thanx again.
SB2

 

[dansbuds]

the hydro side . sorry , i keep forgetting you want to do the organic way .

the organic compounds will buffer the coco where it needs to be , so yeah , you really don't have to worry about it much , but i would still bring it up , cuz that seems low even for organic . i believe.... which means i'm not really sure .... but i believe that organics still work better up in the soil range which is around 6.5
besides .... your using silica to bring it up & the plants will bennefit from it anyways even if its not needed

 

[stoneybud2]

No worries dansbuds.
Getting great advise on both sides of the fence in personally use to hydro not a dirt farmer.
But this is really helping me get shit sorted.
And seems like using the silica will benifit quite well besides a ph up.
Yeah in not too sure if that's due to RO water or what but never mixed nutes n had a ph that low. Lol.
Thanx again.
SB2

 

[tokinblackguy]

A few notes from some old posts

A few notes from some old posts

Hey stoney, I dug up a few post I made relevant to the conversation. Still haven't located my hand-written notes besides the breakdown of nute profiles, but I will keep looking. I know I had worked up another profile including Pro-Tekt Silica but those notes elude me at the moment. Also, I think I had settled on mixing 15-20% course perlite in with the coco with a bottom and top layer of straight perlite. Anyways, maybe you can use some of the info posted below, as stated already, it's really trial and error but I know how important having a starting base can be. I will continue to try and locate my hand- written notes for you as I remember little tweaks here and there.

NOTES FROM OLD POST:

--i'm running a nutrient profile modeled after what H3ad uses for coco, but with organic/mostly organic nutes and just wanted to double check if anyone here sees a problem with it and if any adjustments should be made or addressed. my medium is pure b'cuzz coco, no pre-rinsing or flushing, General Organics Bloom and Cal/Mg and Buddha Grow from Roots Organics. Trinity(bio-catalyst), Ancient Amber(fulvic/humic acid) OregonismXL(mychos and benefiicials), and Hygrozyme. nute profile is 107N-62P-140K-29Mg-66Ca. i haven't ph'd at all and plants look extraordinarily healthy going into week 1 flower. i plan to boost with Roots Big Swell. i should add, this is my first time with coco, less than 1 month experience. any help or feedback is appreciated.

--since my previous post, i have tried a few different feeding regimens over the course of vegging, but have since switched to the roots organics "master feeding schedule" for bloom. i alternate between the roots and the GO line for the plants i still have vegging. the GO line seems to encourage denser foliage and tighter node spacing in veg, so my feedings lean more that route. i also top dress per the roots feeding schedule which i asked about in another thread but got no replies, so i played guinea pig.

i have witnessed no problems alternating these lines during veg aside from what appeared to be a Mg deficiency on a couple strains when i wasnt top-dressing in the veg stage. i settled with the roots for bloom only because of the reports i've read of the the GO line not producing dense buds. i have no experience running it to full bloom myself so who knows, and i'm just experimenting here. i know the roots line gave me excellent results and some of my tastiest buds to date and down right respectable yields when i ran their basic feed schedule on my last crop.

to date, i still DO NOT ph my feedings. i just said fuck it, see what happens, these nute lines are supposed to be "ph stable". all i know is, i calibrated my ph meter, never had an ec/ppm meter cause i've always been a dirt farmer. my waters ph out the tap is like 7.3, if i let it set out for 24 hrs, it comes in at 7.15-7.2. after adding my bloom mix, ph comes in at 5.5. i tested runoff once or twice and it's at 6.5. i have no idea what is happening in the root zone as im a total newb to coco, but i would assume sort of buffering/ cation exchange thing is going on and the root zone area is somewhere near 6.0 +/-.

i wish someone else had some experience with this or similar to let me know what all is going on and if this may be detrimental. so far, everything is super healthy with the oldest plants right at 3 weeks bloom. i can say that bud set came in earlier on most strains as compared to my soil grows and i'm feeding everything at the same level, no tailoring feed for different strains. the only leaf loss experienced was from the one blade leaves after the cotylens(sp) and that may have been due to me transplanting too deep and letting those leaves get dosed in nutrient.

if i had my cam, i would document some of this stuff and get some opinions. the final smoke will tell all, as close to all organic in coco as i think you can get so you know im hoping for some tasty morsels.

--I've been playing with a semi-organic nute regiment and I think I have it close to dialed.

2-tsp GO Bloom
1-tsp Soul Grow
1-tsp GO Cal/Mag
1-g Epsom
1-tsp RO Extreme Serene
1/4-tsp DG Pro-Tekt

I can adjust strength by simply diluting with water, seedlings to bloom. I haven't decided what my bloom booster will be but I have some Soul Big Swell which I've used before and some liquid KoolBloom which I'm not sure if I'll use at all. I'd really like to pick up some Humboldt Big Up Powder, I used it in one of my soil grows with good results and would like to try it again in coco. Big Swell is good for a little more weight with added flavor and aroma, but Big Up really helped add density to that weight IMHO. The combination should produce favorable results. Did I mention I don't pH this mix..??

--I have a nute profile I worked up if anyone is interested. I wouldn't mind someone double checking it for me either. The good thing about coco is I've seen excellent results from a variety of methods on the boards. I've even tried top-dressing with organics for a few feedings with no noticeable ill effects. It did seem to invite gnats but I'm not sure if that was a result of the organics or if the larvae came premixed with the coco.

--i just switched to coco for a quick winter run. b'cuzz coco pure, no perlite, except as a layer at the bottom of my pots. i was feeding with Roots Organics products but have been trying to understand nutrient profiles lately. since Roots didn't list secondary or trace elements on the bottle, I decided to play with the GO line. using 2 tsp Bloom and 1 tsp Cal/Mg from the GO line, i added 2 tsp of Buddha Grow from the Roots line and came up with a nutrient profile of:

107N-62P-140K-29Mg-66Ca

i tried to mimick the Lucas/Mel Frank/pH formula, but with ratios closer to what H3ad runs in his coco setup. i do not use the diamond black from the GO line, too thick and gunky for coco IMO, great for depleted soil mixes though. instead i use the ancient amber from the Roots line, much clearer and lower molecular weight. i use the root boost from the GO line sparingly, like 1/4 tsp/gal, and add a little trinity from roots. water from the tap sat out and bubbled for 24+hrs. NO pH'ing at all!!!

--this is my first run with the GO line and also my first run with coco so i cant comment on the yield yet. i just entered bloom, so we will see. from what i read on GH's Blog, if you mix the GO line and dont use it within the hour, they recommend that you aerate the mixture, but not with airstones, bubbles are too fine. i just use my airline, no airstone attached. they also recommend that you only aerate for a maximum of 2-3 days, after that, the beneficials will begin to compete with each other and cause an unbalance. hope this helps, the GH Blog has valuable information regarding this line and how it's "supposed" to work.

 

[stoneybud2]

Hey stoney, I dug up a few post I made relevant to the conversation. Still haven't located my hand-written notes besides the breakdown of nute profiles, but I will keep looking. I know I had worked up another profile including Pro-Tekt Silica but those notes elude me at the moment. Also, I think I had settled on mixing 15-20% course perlite in with the coco with a bottom and top layer of straight perlite. Anyways, maybe you can use some of the info posted below, as stated already, it's really trial and error but I know how important having a starting base can be. I will continue to try and locate my hand- written notes for you as I remember little tweaks here and there.

NOTES FROM OLD POST:

--i'm running a nutrient profile modeled after what H3ad uses for coco, but with organic/mostly organic nutes and just wanted to double check if anyone here sees a problem with it and if any adjustments should be made or addressed. my medium is pure b'cuzz coco, no pre-rinsing or flushing, General Organics Bloom and Cal/Mg and Buddha Grow from Roots Organics. Trinity(bio-catalyst), Ancient Amber(fulvic/humic acid) OregonismXL(mychos and benefiicials), and Hygrozyme. nute profile is 107N-62P-140K-29Mg-66Ca. i haven't ph'd at all and plants look extraordinarily healthy going into week 1 flower. i plan to boost with Roots Big Swell. i should add, this is my first time with coco, less than 1 month experience. any help or feedback is appreciated.

--since my previous post, i have tried a few different feeding regimens over the course of vegging, but have since switched to the roots organics "master feeding schedule" for bloom. i alternate between the roots and the GO line for the plants i still have vegging. the GO line seems to encourage denser foliage and tighter node spacing in veg, so my feedings lean more that route. i also top dress per the roots feeding schedule which i asked about in another thread but got no replies, so i played guinea pig.

i have witnessed no problems alternating these lines during veg aside from what appeared to be a Mg deficiency on a couple strains when i wasnt top-dressing in the veg stage. i settled with the roots for bloom only because of the reports i've read of the the GO line not producing dense buds. i have no experience running it to full bloom myself so who knows, and i'm just experimenting here. i know the roots line gave me excellent results and some of my tastiest buds to date and down right respectable yields when i ran their basic feed schedule on my last crop.

to date, i still DO NOT ph my feedings. i just said fuck it, see what happens, these nute lines are supposed to be "ph stable". all i know is, i calibrated my ph meter, never had an ec/ppm meter cause i've always been a dirt farmer. my waters ph out the tap is like 7.3, if i let it set out for 24 hrs, it comes in at 7.15-7.2. after adding my bloom mix, ph comes in at 5.5. i tested runoff once or twice and it's at 6.5. i have no idea what is happening in the root zone as im a total newb to coco, but i would assume sort of buffering/ cation exchange thing is going on and the root zone area is somewhere near 6.0 +/-.

i wish someone else had some experience with this or similar to let me know what all is going on and if this may be detrimental. so far, everything is super healthy with the oldest plants right at 3 weeks bloom. i can say that bud set came in earlier on most strains as compared to my soil grows and i'm feeding everything at the same level, no tailoring feed for different strains. the only leaf loss experienced was from the one blade leaves after the cotylens(sp) and that may have been due to me transplanting too deep and letting those leaves get dosed in nutrient.

if i had my cam, i would document some of this stuff and get some opinions. the final smoke will tell all, as close to all organic in coco as i think you can get so you know im hoping for some tasty morsels.

--I've been playing with a semi-organic nute regiment and I think I have it close to dialed.

2-tsp GO Bloom
1-tsp Soul Grow
1-tsp GO Cal/Mag
1-g Epsom
1-tsp RO Extreme Serene
1/4-tsp DG Pro-Tekt

I can adjust strength by simply diluting with water, seedlings to bloom. I haven't decided what my bloom booster will be but I have some Soul Big Swell which I've used before and some liquid KoolBloom which I'm not sure if I'll use at all. I'd really like to pick up some Humboldt Big Up Powder, I used it in one of my soil grows with good results and would like to try it again in coco. Big Swell is good for a little more weight with added flavor and aroma, but Big Up really helped add density to that weight IMHO. The combination should produce favorable results. Did I mention I don't pH this mix..??

--I have a nute profile I worked up if anyone is interested. I wouldn't mind someone double checking it for me either. The good thing about coco is I've seen excellent results from a variety of methods on the boards. I've even tried top-dressing with organics for a few feedings with no noticeable ill effects. It did seem to invite gnats but I'm not sure if that was a result of the organics or if the larvae came premixed with the coco.

--i just switched to coco for a quick winter run. b'cuzz coco pure, no perlite, except as a layer at the bottom of my pots. i was feeding with Roots Organics products but have been trying to understand nutrient profiles lately. since Roots didn't list secondary or trace elements on the bottle, I decided to play with the GO line. using 2 tsp Bloom and 1 tsp Cal/Mg from the GO line, i added 2 tsp of Buddha Grow from the Roots line and came up with a nutrient profile of:

107N-62P-140K-29Mg-66Ca

i tried to mimick the Lucas/Mel Frank/pH formula, but with ratios closer to what H3ad runs in his coco setup. i do not use the diamond black from the GO line, too thick and gunky for coco IMO, great for depleted soil mixes though. instead i use the ancient amber from the Roots line, much clearer and lower molecular weight. i use the root boost from the GO line sparingly, like 1/4 tsp/gal, and add a little trinity from roots. water from the tap sat out and bubbled for 24+hrs. NO pH'ing at all!!!

--this is my first run with the GO line and also my first run with coco so i cant comment on the yield yet. i just entered bloom, so we will see. from what i read on GH's Blog, if you mix the GO line and dont use it within the hour, they recommend that you aerate the mixture, but not with airstones, bubbles are too fine. i just use my airline, no airstone attached. they also recommend that you only aerate for a maximum of 2-3 days, after that, the beneficials will begin to compete with each other and cause an unbalance. hope this helps, the GH Blog has valuable information regarding this line and how it's "supposed" to work.

Kickass sir.
Much obliged.
Quick report. Found out the wife was getting water at 2 dif places
Mixed a batch up this am read 5.6-5.7. I feel better with that. LOL.
SB2

 

[stoneybud2]

What's funny is I'm running the black diamond. Lol damn.
Along with I cut out the biomarine. Noticed that when added I got no foam when bubbling.
I've read this is due to the acidity of the bio marine.
I must ask though how are you breaking down the elements like that ??
And why the drastic cut on the bio root ??
Thank you so much.
SB2

 

[tokinblackguy]

What's funny is I'm running the black diamond. Lol damn.
Along with I cut out the biomarine. Noticed that when added I got no foam when bubbling.
I've read this is due to the acidity of the bio marine.
I must ask though how are you breaking down the elements like that ??
And why the drastic cut on the bio root ??
Thank you so much.
SB2

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

Nute profile calculator and some explanation of how and why. Personally, I would recommend the coco threads by H3ad and bonecarver, good info to be found within.

As mentioned, I tried to come up with a formula close to what H3ad was running with the nutes I had on hand, yours may differ slightly. I think as long as the ratios are close, there is a little give and take as far what you can use and how much. Sometimes adding in something without reducing another will throw the ratio off, as I think may have been the case with the Bio Root. I cannot remember for sure to give you a definitive answer, might be in my notes somewhere.

As for the Black Diamond, when your plants are feeding 3 times a day, it starts to build a layer so to speak on top of the coco rather quickly. You'll notice water not draining as quickly and sorta sitting there for a few before it starts to seep. It was weird and I found the Roots alternative was a better fit and no drainage issues.

 

[stoneybud2]

Ok. That makes sense. I stopped using the bd after a few feeds. And not using it all the way through first wk to 2. But def good too know. LOoks like bloody crude oil. Lol.
I've been reading through h3ads thread there. Very interesting.
So I will pick up some silica n start to figure.
I'll post what I think may be right b4 using.
Im keeping it pretty simple. Have full line of the GO, cannazym, mycro, molasses, and soon silica. It's a lot more then the GH3 lol but very interesting.
SB2

 

[stoneybud2]

@tokinblackguy & @dansbuds.

I wanna oh back to ph (hydro tech) and orgsnics.
I may be missing something. Which I hope I'm not.
Now GO isn't true orgsnics vs an amended coco plain water n teas
But "acts" down the same principle of buffering and no phing required.
Now can I use it like a hydro(synth)nute? Ph n multi feeds. Or is that going to mess with the whole idea??
Feel kinda dumb but I'm gathering I can multi feed no ph doing an organic brew/nute.

"As for the Black Diamond, when your plants are feeding 3 times a day, it starts to build a layer so to speak on top of the coco rather quickly. You'll notice water not draining as quickly and sorta sitting there for a few before it starts to seep. It was weird and I found the Roots alternative was a better fit and no drainage issues."

This paragraph I think answered my question somewhat.
Thanx
SB2

 

[surfguitar]

I happen to have some coco and want to do a little experiment. Right now I'm planning to do 70%coco/15%aeration/15%compost and water with my little bit of leftover GO nutes, Botanical teas, SST(enzyme) teas, and compost teas. Kinda wanna see if I can get most of there nutrition from the botanicals/compost. No plans to measure anything, using either RO water or off a tallboy filter. I have some clones rooting, if they root should throw this mix together in a week or so.

 

[stoneybud2]

That could be interesting. I've never kept myself up to speed with organics do this is all pretty new to me.
I have always wondered if one could make a super coco like super soil.
When I started coco I was thinking of trying one of those pre mixed packs ie (subcools) mix
But many told me that won't work do I never tried. Lol.
I'll have to keep an eye on that. N hope you post it up.
SB2

 

[dansbuds]

can you get any of these bags around you ? theres quite a few good organic coco mixes all ready out there on the market . i'll link to a few i know about .

http://www.amazon.com/Just-Right-Xtra-Potting-Soil/dp/B007TFYH5S

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Gold-13...F8&qid=1389234885&sr=1-10&keywords=coco+mixes

http://www.amazon.com/Roots-Organic...F8&qid=1389234946&sr=1-38&keywords=coco+mixes

http://www.amazon.com/SunGro-Hortic...=UTF8&qid=1389235065&sr=1-2&keywords=sunshine

these are just a few organic peat/coco mixes that work pretty good & you just feed them the GO or whatever you want to use & feed it like a soil grow with the aeration & root building capabilities of the coco .

its just a thought

 

[stoneybud2]

Sweet Jesus. Thanx dansbuds.
Yeah I could get all those. Interesting.
I am wondering why is peat always added (food for plant n microbes/water retention/ ??)
This could be completely done straight coco I'm guessing.
If the right amendments are added to feed the plant and mycro life you should beable to obtain the perfect quarters for both to thrive.
I could be taking this all wrong.
But me using the organic line Im still feeding the coco like one would soil.
Giving cocos dif applications of coarse but still feeding the coco. If using mycro I'm still feeding then. Or there's not enough in the coco alone to house the thriving mycro??
But adding n amending the coco like one would soil would give you those peramiters for the coco to feed the plant n the mycro to wrk as one.
Sry I just medicated. Lol. A lot going through the mind.
SB2

 

[dansbuds]

the justrightXtra is all coco & amendments ...... no peat . I've thought about that one myself , but i'm not dealing with organic nutes .... i'm too lazy

it takes me 5 minutes to fill one of my rez's ... & i'm done for 4 days lol

Unclefishstick here uses sunshine #4 & the GO line plus compost teas & loves it & is killing it with it too .

 

[stoneybud2]

the justrightXtra is all coco & amendments ...... no peat . I've thought about that one myself , but i'm not dealing with organic nutes .... i'm too lazy

it takes me 5 minutes to fill one of my rez's ... & i'm done for 4 days lol

That's funny. Cuz I was think Zackly same thing. Man does this take a lot longer then synth. Lol. Let alone the sit time is a lot greater.
If I can get results just as good if not better I'll be happy if not be bdck on gh3 with h3ads formula or coco spec nutes.
SB2

 

[tokinblackguy]

I'm not sure if you can mix coco like a super soil to get you through an entire grow, I only have experience top dressing with amendments which allowed me to feed at a lower dosage or use teas to keep the microherd happy. Coco has a tendency to want to over release some nutrients while holding onto others, combined with the requirement to stay moist, I think it would be rather tricky to get it right given each nutrient breaks down differently. Personally, I would suggest getting use to coco and organics in general and making changes as you see fit, that way you can get a better idea of what works and what doesn't a little bit at a time without potentially sacrificing your whole crop. When I was topdressing, I was doing so once every 2 weeks, cutting back on the bottled nutes to maybe 1/4 strength for daily feeds. I probably could have eliminated bottled nutes altogether and just run straight ph'd water but I never got the chance to test that so I'm not sure.

Also note, some of the bagged coco mentioned comes amended with a "starter charge" but definitely not enough to last with just water feeds. The way I read it, it's like the manufacturers pre-rinse the coco, as many recommend here to wash away salts, and then lightly charge it with some ferts, a light dose after the rinsing to bring the coco back to acceptable levels without the salts. You have to be careful with some of the others that aren't just coco as IMO, they're more akin to soil-soilless mixes with added coco for drainage, and are meant to be treated more like a soil grow.

I'm not an expert guys, so take my advice with a grain of salt, just relaying my experiences and thoughts. My number one rule is to first keep it simple, maximizing the potential before bringing in any new additions. Then and only then can you begin to tweak and add and try. Best to do one at a time to make it easier to pinpoint the problem if any should arise.

I like the way this thread is going, I have not seen many running organics this way in coco on the boards, especially when I first inquired about it. I will continue to help as much as I can if needed and like yourselves, I'm still learning as well, so the info you guys provide is also invaluable to me. Who knows, maybe we will be the ones to provide the blueprint for others to follow if they choose, it's all just a learning experience.

 

[stoneybud2]

Thanks TBG
That's the one thing in having a hard time wrapping my head around. Coco ph 5.6-6.1 n soil 6.2-6.7. So right there stopped with a stupid look how would all this play out.
Once I have my rooms running "normal" again I will have a free room to play. N I will play lil round with that. More or less for ph function and fluctuation.
In my eyes it would be perfect to beable to keep at hydro ph but with a supper coco. Feeding low dosses or teas from point A to point B.

I agree totally with you. I'm very compfterable with coco being a water farmer. I personally find it reacts to ph a lot worse then hydro system. But due attention and care. Comes in I guess. It's the orgsnics mostly that's playing the cloud in my sunny days.
At moment got 4 great looking girls n 5 meh. Not as happy.
The tweaking like you said will def be a few grows away. Due to I'm risking a grow on the chart doses eek. But to me it gives me first hand testing n seeing product to make the changes.
No there isn't a lot of people out there doing this. Nor alotbof good solid info about it or "coco" itself. IMO ic is the coco forum. And what you guys have done here is great.
It's funny cuz growers of decades of experience can't answer my questions or shed any light. Lol. Coco seems to be the mistery beast.
I will snap a few photos. Of how they seem to be reacting. M
Thanx again.
SB2

 

[stoneybud2]

You shouldn't be brewing General Organics. They recommend against the practice. 2-6 hours, if you're absolutely convinced you're going to brew it, is the length to do it for.

I figure since this is becoming more of an info/testing thread. I'd mention that GH dose not recommend against it ^^

This is all the said when asked about bubbling there product.

"If you bubble it, there will be quite a bit of foam and it gets pretty smelly. Other than that, it's fine."

I've never noticed the smell worsen. And I was under the impression "the foam" was a good sign of mycro activity.

SB2

 

[stoneybud2]

Alright finally some pics. Nothing special. And a little sad/confused
The pictures with the 5 in are gsc not happy either
Ph in-5.7 ph out- 5.9
Still feeding full line of GO.
Tent temp 70
And not ph'in solution

Next pics of the 2. Are purple bomb I have 4 that are good
All specs are the same as above but they look so much better.

SB2