leaffan
Member
Hi Jellyfish, how so?
-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Soil or Hydroponics?
- Thread starter leaffan
- Start date
Hi Jellyfish, how so?
Buds Bundy
Member
If that's so and it was me I'd be going to local hothouses and checking out the operations and their IPM systems. Shit with a sealed glass green house you can probably grow some potent meds vs HID only. Only issues with gh is the heating in winter.
Now this is on a larger scale and someone I know who owns cut flower green houses spends $100K + per year on biological controls.
For me if for someone freaky reason I was to start buying from a CPL I'd want potency and no chemical pesticides.
Your second post stated you at peak ran 1500KW, I misread that what with my dyslexia and thought you mean W. I run more than 1500W in a tent.
Again you really think you can set up a hydro grow in the wild west and grow with chemical quicker than I can broad cast seed and start to dominate the landscape organically.
That is incorrect because fields of cannabis are growing in Morocco, Mexico, Afghanistan and Spain organically, already proving you know fuck all about in my garden Med man.
Didn't you go talking in the MMpr thread and then went quiet didn't you saying you had sent letters of intent?
Did they not tell you in replys to these letters that you will possibly face criminal prosecution for pollution? Regardless of cannabis being legal pollution is illegal. Cannabis with chemicals is Contamabis!
Nowhere on the planet is it more considerate or financially better practice to set up a hydro house like 'Thanet Earth' doing all the growing for laymen than it is to have many isolated small organic facility’s who benefit the local and worldwide economy and environment.
Organic/Veganic or go home guys!! Its 2014
"I will not argue that an application of 'p2o5' 2 weeks prior to planting and a dose of 'Superthrive' upon planting will be all that all that is needed for the start up 3 years until the grow starts to produce organic matter and eventually post lines can be erected with shade cloth and irrigation to start to PRODUCE like Afghanistan, Mexico & Morocco"!
Last edited:
another soil grower who hasnt tried hydro that is an expert in it lol
no worries. no one is immune to karma.
actually. there was no pollution reply, so another thing you dont know what you are talking about...
people act like you cant grow hydro with organic teas, more proof to me of inexperience and hearsay.
1500 kw means 1500 x 1000w bulbs. not a litttle tent i a basement, but huge hangers.
one day you will get it, and no longer be scared of things you have not tried or dont understand, i used to be the same way. touting your preferred choice of growing for you is one thing, touting its the best way in the world is another. i am known for highest quality and lowest costs globally, and have verifiable evidence to show it. do you?
i love full moons on these forums lol
med-man
If you don't do hydro some one else will and they will do it cheaper and faster than you. By the time you catch up it will be to late.
Think the whole system sucks because when it comes to business it is all about the money.
So if I were you, it would have to be an industrial sized RDWC, Not hard to do just bigger toys that's all.
Peace
Think the whole system sucks because when it comes to business it is all about the money.
So if I were you, it would have to be an industrial sized RDWC, Not hard to do just bigger toys that's all.
Peace
Hydro or organic, doesn't matter. If the source material is clean (no heavy metals) both can produce extreme quality buds. Hydro no better or worse, higher yielding though. It's all in feeding the plant properly. Giving it what it wants. It's a lot easier to do that in organic setups.
I'll take this challenge med-man.
I've done hydro -aeroponics, DWC, ebb n'flow, etc - and I've run with soils and bottled organic ferts, and I've run true organic, fully amended soils...
You are right that the growth rates of hydro can't be matched - that is certain, especially when comparing something aeroponics where plants just explode...
At the same time - there is NO hydro method that come even remotely close to producing the same flavor (terpenes) that an organic soil flower posses. There just isn't...
If I was a commercial grower looking to make a buck - I'd be running hydro all day. But since I'm now just a private grower and was a medical caregiver prior - I learned the BEST flowers are always grown organically...
Now, my immediate conclusion is maybe you haven't experienced the best of the organic world. There is a HUGE difference in the varieties of soil mixes just like there is in variety of bottles...
With EVERY bottled nutrient line you are experiencing what THEY tell you the plant is supposed to taste like. Each line leaves a particular taste similarity across ALL strains - they lose a factor of their genetic individuality. It's why some people swear some lines are better than others, because the feel line A produces a better taste than line B...
If the only important factor was how a plant scores in a gas chromo or what have you - then why is it plants that have superior THC% are not always produce the strongest effects or do not produce the most desired effects?
It's because it's about way more than just percentages - there are synergistic effects that take place between ALL the compounds that are present in cannabis...in ways that are yet to be fully understood as every persons endocannabinoid system responds differently.
Having a plant produce itself as a nutrient companies has declared - or having the plant expresses itself as nature intended, is what you are ultimately dealing with...
That's why in organic soil, diversity of amendments is so vitally important - so the plant can pick and choose how, when, what, and why it takes from the soil what IT wants - not what we the grower are telling the plant it is supposed to have...
The fact is - we CAN NOT - we DO NOT - grow cannabis. The plant grows itself. If man never touched the plant - it would STILL grow. All we do, is present the plant with environmental stimuli that trigger various genetically encoded response from the plant. ALL we can do, is present this stimuli - and based on the plants presentation of it's genetic coding - gauge whether or not the stimuli was beneficial to our personal goals...
Med-man - unless you understand that soil does not NEED to be tossed at the end of every round, that it can be recycled and re-used without any issue, then you fail to understand the fullness of an organic garden...
OP - I would suggest, a specific study of how to utilize no-till soil beds would be the most efficient means of large scale organic production in the scenario you seem to be looking at...
If you properly amend the beds, you're set and good to go for YEARS...literally. All you'd have to do is cut the plants, pull out the stalks and whatever bit of attached root mass that comes with it, re-fill the hole with a bit of rich compost and plant the next plant to go in. On an automated watering system - it doesn't get any easier than that...
Med-man - one day, I bet we cross paths - and I'll show you what your missing out on. Until then - I'd not be spurting off "what is best" - ESPECIALLY when you are not presenting anything more than your own opinion from which to back the statements. And this isn't an attack at your experience over the years either - but everything you state as "fact" is merely subjective - and for you to say anyone should not scrutinize you, because you managed to clip a couple of cups to your belt loops - is ludicrous. We all know how many canna competitions are bought and paid for - and the numerous events that exist in the world and how they are all judged on different parameters. But I'm sure it is fun to win those really isolated events.
And my point is not to take anything away from your methods or your achievements or your genetic lines...or any of the rest of that trolling non-sense - but rather to say - to use such merits as the measure of your intellect or ability - is NOT impressive to anyone that's been around the block a couple times...maybe to the newbs, but hey, they make a great market, and there is nothing wrong with trying to chip out your chuck of the iceberg. Just don't use your marketing skills as some means to promote subjective opinion as if it is fact...
You want credit for your buds around these parts - send some flowers into the ICmag Cup - where ANY and EVERYONE can enter - and you are truly placed against ALL growers - and then maybe, you can pop your collar and sing a song.
dank.Frank
I've done hydro -aeroponics, DWC, ebb n'flow, etc - and I've run with soils and bottled organic ferts, and I've run true organic, fully amended soils...
You are right that the growth rates of hydro can't be matched - that is certain, especially when comparing something aeroponics where plants just explode...
At the same time - there is NO hydro method that come even remotely close to producing the same flavor (terpenes) that an organic soil flower posses. There just isn't...
If I was a commercial grower looking to make a buck - I'd be running hydro all day. But since I'm now just a private grower and was a medical caregiver prior - I learned the BEST flowers are always grown organically...
Now, my immediate conclusion is maybe you haven't experienced the best of the organic world. There is a HUGE difference in the varieties of soil mixes just like there is in variety of bottles...
With EVERY bottled nutrient line you are experiencing what THEY tell you the plant is supposed to taste like. Each line leaves a particular taste similarity across ALL strains - they lose a factor of their genetic individuality. It's why some people swear some lines are better than others, because the feel line A produces a better taste than line B...
If the only important factor was how a plant scores in a gas chromo or what have you - then why is it plants that have superior THC% are not always produce the strongest effects or do not produce the most desired effects?
It's because it's about way more than just percentages - there are synergistic effects that take place between ALL the compounds that are present in cannabis...in ways that are yet to be fully understood as every persons endocannabinoid system responds differently.
Having a plant produce itself as a nutrient companies has declared - or having the plant expresses itself as nature intended, is what you are ultimately dealing with...
That's why in organic soil, diversity of amendments is so vitally important - so the plant can pick and choose how, when, what, and why it takes from the soil what IT wants - not what we the grower are telling the plant it is supposed to have...
The fact is - we CAN NOT - we DO NOT - grow cannabis. The plant grows itself. If man never touched the plant - it would STILL grow. All we do, is present the plant with environmental stimuli that trigger various genetically encoded response from the plant. ALL we can do, is present this stimuli - and based on the plants presentation of it's genetic coding - gauge whether or not the stimuli was beneficial to our personal goals...
Med-man - unless you understand that soil does not NEED to be tossed at the end of every round, that it can be recycled and re-used without any issue, then you fail to understand the fullness of an organic garden...
OP - I would suggest, a specific study of how to utilize no-till soil beds would be the most efficient means of large scale organic production in the scenario you seem to be looking at...
If you properly amend the beds, you're set and good to go for YEARS...literally. All you'd have to do is cut the plants, pull out the stalks and whatever bit of attached root mass that comes with it, re-fill the hole with a bit of rich compost and plant the next plant to go in. On an automated watering system - it doesn't get any easier than that...
Med-man - one day, I bet we cross paths - and I'll show you what your missing out on. Until then - I'd not be spurting off "what is best" - ESPECIALLY when you are not presenting anything more than your own opinion from which to back the statements. And this isn't an attack at your experience over the years either - but everything you state as "fact" is merely subjective - and for you to say anyone should not scrutinize you, because you managed to clip a couple of cups to your belt loops - is ludicrous. We all know how many canna competitions are bought and paid for - and the numerous events that exist in the world and how they are all judged on different parameters. But I'm sure it is fun to win those really isolated events.
And my point is not to take anything away from your methods or your achievements or your genetic lines...or any of the rest of that trolling non-sense - but rather to say - to use such merits as the measure of your intellect or ability - is NOT impressive to anyone that's been around the block a couple times...maybe to the newbs, but hey, they make a great market, and there is nothing wrong with trying to chip out your chuck of the iceberg. Just don't use your marketing skills as some means to promote subjective opinion as if it is fact...
You want credit for your buds around these parts - send some flowers into the ICmag Cup - where ANY and EVERYONE can enter - and you are truly placed against ALL growers - and then maybe, you can pop your collar and sing a song.
dank.Frank
Last edited:
As far as the heavy metal bit is concerned - if you watch the quality and source locations of the materials used to build the soil in the first place, and such things are never a concern...
But if you are in the game to make a buck - then Sativa Dragon hit the nail on the head. There is no room for altruism when it's a dog eat dog mentality that has taken over this industry...
If you're going to play the game...you have folks banging out dro beasters all day - and that is the game you may ultimately have to play. Because they can pump out more garbage than you can true quality, they will under sell and drive you out of the market....
If you are REALLY doing it for the well being of the patients, your patients will love and respect you for putting their health above all else. Granted - you may never end up driving a Bentley.
dank.Frank
But if you are in the game to make a buck - then Sativa Dragon hit the nail on the head. There is no room for altruism when it's a dog eat dog mentality that has taken over this industry...
If you're going to play the game...you have folks banging out dro beasters all day - and that is the game you may ultimately have to play. Because they can pump out more garbage than you can true quality, they will under sell and drive you out of the market....
If you are REALLY doing it for the well being of the patients, your patients will love and respect you for putting their health above all else. Granted - you may never end up driving a Bentley.
dank.Frank
A couple of current threads with organic beds that are simply killing it:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=267388
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=270962
That is to just give you an idea of what is possible...
dank.Frank
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=267388
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=270962
That is to just give you an idea of what is possible...
dank.Frank
johnnybravo
Member
Regarding safety of patient's, it is far more important to commit to NO pesticides!
Hydro can be organic. Mojave runs chem nutes in a recirculating dwc system utilizing a bio filter with ewc, right up to flush time then switches to straight ewc tea and bigbloom for final flush! Bout as clean as it gets and no pesticides!
Your one of the few I have witnesses saying two things in one post allowing each point to be contradiction but allow to exist in the same post.
Peace
I must say Dank is really who you want making your meds, sorry to all the guys who see dollar signs, there will always be elite bud, nothing but elite bud that you can't compare with the industrial grown shit that is about to hit the Market.
Don't believe me, just look at the state of our food source, LOOK AT IT!! It went from farmer markets to corporate logos, all your gonna get from this system is weak meds, overpriced, low quality, Shit...
That's what we got from our food being processed in major factories.
when the SHTF ha ha ha,, I will be seeing Dank Frank for my bud, or I am taking it cause it gotta be dank,
Peace
Regarding safety of patient's, it is far more important to commit to NO pesticides!
Hydro can be organic. Mojave runs chem nutes in a recirculating dwc system utilizing a bio filter with ewc, right up to flush time then switches to straight ewc tea and bigbloom for final flush! Bout as clean as it gets and no pesticides!
Bravo, MMA guy?
Peace
JohnnyBravo - ummm...you don't flush true organics - so whoever you are touting as a prime example of whatever - isn't doing it right. Hate to burst that bubble.
However, hydroponics can be done with organically derived nutrients, yes - but it still isn't the same as allowing the plant to express itself...as you are still force feeding what you think the plant needs.
SOIL...there is something about SOIL - you know, the stuff plants were created...or evolved...to grow in. (which ever you prefer) You know - the NATURAL way. One does not simply best nature...history has proven this.
I think soil, in general, is very key to taste factor...not just "organic" nutrients.
dank.Frank
However, hydroponics can be done with organically derived nutrients, yes - but it still isn't the same as allowing the plant to express itself...as you are still force feeding what you think the plant needs.
SOIL...there is something about SOIL - you know, the stuff plants were created...or evolved...to grow in. (which ever you prefer) You know - the NATURAL way. One does not simply best nature...history has proven this.
I think soil, in general, is very key to taste factor...not just "organic" nutrients.
dank.Frank
The Thing about soil is that soil allows all things to live within it.
Respect
Peace
Respect
Peace
johnnybravo
Member
"Right" according to you is not necessarily "right"
Plants unable to express themselves in anything other than soil? Lol
How does one force feed a plant? That's a new one for me.
out with the HID's! Lol
U are most certainly entitled to that line of thinking!
science in laymans terms...
science in laymans terms...
Then what causes a plant to burn? Over-feeding, correct?
Then how is it NOT possible to force feed?
Plant roots absorb / utilize nutrients, minerals, ect in their ionic forms. NOT the base molecule.
When pouring an already ionized nutrient solution over roots, the plants have NO CHOICE but to absorb it...
When in an organic soil, where nature, via the microbial population is consuming and then excreting the nutrients, minerals, etc - to produce the ionized form in which the various organic matter present then becomes available to the plant for uptake...
The plants roots will produce it's own chemical compounds based on the plants needs which stimulate the rhizosphere and change the behavior of the micro-organisms and cue them as to what specific nutrients and minerals the plant is immediately in need of. As the plants needs change...the chemical signals the roots produce change, and the behavior of various bacteria responds to this. It is a state of constant flux and adaptation...to adequately provide the plant with all its needs...
THIS is not speculation...this is SCIENCE. You think I just make this stuff up for the sake of promoting my own ideas about something? NOPE. It's called an EDUCATION. I'm not pushing "dank.Frank tables", ie self-promotional methodologies...so what is it I stand to gain in this conversation??
Read this link - you'll learn a LOT. But if you aren't familiar with soil concepts, a dictionary might help out a bit. And I'm not being snide - education is the key to producing BETTER cannabis. And science says, nature has it all under control...
Again, do you think you can tell the plant what it wants better than the plant can decide for itself what it wants?
http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/the-rhizosphere-roots-soil-and-67500617
SO YES - force feeding the plant - is EXACTLY what MOST gardeners do - not just with cannabis, but in ALL forms of agriculture!!
You want me to break down the rest of your post like this, Johnny? I will if you'd like me to do so.
Unless you are just posting to be argumentative and have no desire to learn; if that's the case, please let me know before I continue, so I don't waste my time.
dank.Frank
science in laymans terms...
Then what causes a plant to burn? Over-feeding, correct?
Then how is it NOT possible to force feed?
Plant roots absorb / utilize nutrients, minerals, ect in their ionic forms. NOT the base molecule.
When pouring an already ionized nutrient solution over roots, the plants have NO CHOICE but to absorb it...
When in an organic soil, where nature, via the microbial population is consuming and then excreting the nutrients, minerals, etc - to produce the ionized form in which the various organic matter present then becomes available to the plant for uptake...
The plants roots will produce it's own chemical compounds based on the plants needs which stimulate the rhizosphere and change the behavior of the micro-organisms and cue them as to what specific nutrients and minerals the plant is immediately in need of. As the plants needs change...the chemical signals the roots produce change, and the behavior of various bacteria responds to this. It is a state of constant flux and adaptation...to adequately provide the plant with all its needs...
THIS is not speculation...this is SCIENCE. You think I just make this stuff up for the sake of promoting my own ideas about something? NOPE. It's called an EDUCATION. I'm not pushing "dank.Frank tables", ie self-promotional methodologies...so what is it I stand to gain in this conversation??
Read this link - you'll learn a LOT. But if you aren't familiar with soil concepts, a dictionary might help out a bit. And I'm not being snide - education is the key to producing BETTER cannabis. And science says, nature has it all under control...
Again, do you think you can tell the plant what it wants better than the plant can decide for itself what it wants?
http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/the-rhizosphere-roots-soil-and-67500617
SO YES - force feeding the plant - is EXACTLY what MOST gardeners do - not just with cannabis, but in ALL forms of agriculture!!
You want me to break down the rest of your post like this, Johnny? I will if you'd like me to do so.
Unless you are just posting to be argumentative and have no desire to learn; if that's the case, please let me know before I continue, so I don't waste my time.
dank.Frank
