nachoconqueso
Member
Can't lie. My plants look amazing since I stripped them down. I'll report the numbers when I get them
Flowering.... trimming fan leaves off....leaving fan leaves on
- Thread starter vapedg13
- Start date
This isn't a question of whether defoliating is a universally good or bad thing.
Some people say leave all the fans on, some say strip them bare in one aggressive go.
Some people say strip in flower but not in veg.
Some people say strip a couple of leaves every few days or it stunts and stresses the plant, and other people say strip lots in one go at set points through growth.
So where do you stand? What can you honestly say works the best way?
Same question to Bassy, and everyone else.
Is stripping a plant to the bare bones the best way to prepare it to maximise yield in a given area?
Because that's the technique that's referenced when you talk about defoliation in this relation to the keeftreez thread.
There are big gaps in the knowledge. Even in that original thread.
I've tried it. It worked. Go back and have a look at what I've already said in that post I linked to on the last page. What I saw when I did it showed me that the plant's not as reliant on it's big fan leaves as a lot of people think.
But....
Does that mean I think stripping them bare in veg is the best way to facilitate growth and heavy branching and set them up best for a heavy yield.
No it doesn't. Because I don't think it's true.
I think that's one variable where Keeftreez never did outline and show any evidence in the form of pictures that the plant showed more vigorous branch growth in the veg stage than one grown with all it's fan leaves left on.
He specifically says "This technique should not be done on plants not prepared by defoliation from the beginning"
Whereas my experience has shown me that it definitely can. So that's a big contradiction right there. In fact I think it might be better, depending on other variables, to use all the foliage for veg, then strip for flower.
I think the fine tuning and the exactness in that respect is definitely way off and in that instance it's obvious that some simple side by side testing could show us a lot actually and I don't see why your environment vs mine would make a difference if you compared the growth rate of a completely naked vegging plant to one left alone.
I think the results would be conclusive. So I'm going to do it myself.
I've got test seeds on the go at the minute anyway so fuck it. Obviously they're from seed but I think if the results should be consistent enough to show through pheno variation.
I agree totally with leaving them (mostly) unmolested in veg and through stretch.
D
DHF
My original post as well as subsequent posts in this thread was from my in depth experience strippin leaves "during" the flowering period since this thread `s based on how to or what actually happens when leaves are stripped during , or rather "when" to strip without stunting plants and causing recovery periods during said "flowering period".....now.....
Since this thread has morphed into full blown "de-foliation" start of grow to finish parameters , since I never witnessed any yield increases per se cuz my shit was dialed from the get , I`ll defer to the folks that strip during veg since I have no knowledge or experience during said veg cycle.....but.....
Increases of 4 oz per plant never happened in my setups by any means , but rather what was left on the vine compared to what originally would`ve been removed showed me that what was lost in yield from removing lower larf was replaced with hard nuggage that leveled returns out and kept yields on a consistent level from those points further .....
Papaduc.....All valid points you bring to the table , but please steer clear of side by side experiments with seedstock , cuz it`s a crapshoot roll of the dice having ANY kind of stable growth comparison between phenotypes of damn near ALL the poly-hybrid in and out crossing that`s been done in the last 20 yrs......
Side by sides with identical clones in indentical surroundings and environment is the only way I`d accept any and all findings from every sequence you suggested that`s been done with this leaf strippin "technique" during veg OR flower , or veg AND flower , or veg and NOT flower , or flower and NOT veg.......anyways.....Remember this guys.......
For every action , there`s an equal and "opposite" reaction with ALL things in life and aspects therein..... Good luck with all yall`s endeavors and findings.......
Leaving the plants alone during pre-veg/veg except for some inner sucker branch trimming and outer plant shaping before the flip worked best for me for sideways vertical canopy development by complete end of stretch , and ......
Then the de-leafing began gradually till they were gone , and if they kept poppin up I knew I hadta reduce my micro and add more bloom while maintaining constant ppm`s across the board till end of cycle ftw.........
Consistent results from 100`s of plants at several locations for several yrs kinda speaks for itself in first hand experience on what the " question by the original " beginning post asked about in "this thread".....regardless....
Many waysta skin a mule......Nailin down what works for you in your environment for "consistent" results is what matters......period....
Peace....DHF.....
......
Since this thread has morphed into full blown "de-foliation" start of grow to finish parameters , since I never witnessed any yield increases per se cuz my shit was dialed from the get , I`ll defer to the folks that strip during veg since I have no knowledge or experience during said veg cycle.....but.....
Increases of 4 oz per plant never happened in my setups by any means , but rather what was left on the vine compared to what originally would`ve been removed showed me that what was lost in yield from removing lower larf was replaced with hard nuggage that leveled returns out and kept yields on a consistent level from those points further .....
Papaduc.....All valid points you bring to the table , but please steer clear of side by side experiments with seedstock , cuz it`s a crapshoot roll of the dice having ANY kind of stable growth comparison between phenotypes of damn near ALL the poly-hybrid in and out crossing that`s been done in the last 20 yrs......
Side by sides with identical clones in indentical surroundings and environment is the only way I`d accept any and all findings from every sequence you suggested that`s been done with this leaf strippin "technique" during veg OR flower , or veg AND flower , or veg and NOT flower , or flower and NOT veg.......anyways.....Remember this guys.......
For every action , there`s an equal and "opposite" reaction with ALL things in life and aspects therein..... Good luck with all yall`s endeavors and findings.......
Leaving the plants alone during pre-veg/veg except for some inner sucker branch trimming and outer plant shaping before the flip worked best for me for sideways vertical canopy development by complete end of stretch , and ......
Then the de-leafing began gradually till they were gone , and if they kept poppin up I knew I hadta reduce my micro and add more bloom while maintaining constant ppm`s across the board till end of cycle ftw.........
Consistent results from 100`s of plants at several locations for several yrs kinda speaks for itself in first hand experience on what the " question by the original " beginning post asked about in "this thread".....regardless....
Many waysta skin a mule......Nailin down what works for you in your environment for "consistent" results is what matters......period....
Peace....DHF.....
......
Side-by-side experiments require many things, including a control group that is neutral. Statistically speaking, a sampling of 5-7 is the minimum number required to form a "bell shape curve", so to reduce outside variables for my experiments, I always ran a minimum of 5 plants (prefer 10) in each lot. So, to fairly test/compare 2 products/routines will require 3 lots (including the control group)--or about 15-21 plants.
In experiments one of the goals is to reduce the influence of outside variables--and running a test on clones will help reduce the issues (recessive traits, pheno attributes, etc) that can fuck up your experiment. That said, professionals do use plants from seeds, but will repeat the experiment multiple times to confirm the cause and relationship.
Lots of notes and pictures become very important....especially in about a 100 days later you scratch your head and ask yourself, "why is this one different...what did I do to cause this?".
There are established procedures for testing Si in soil and plant tissues--test labs are not the expensive (I know).
Cheers!
Hah: Came across this little tidbit--
The amount of silica present in plant tissues can be increased by defoliation of the
plant. Tissue silicification can be increased by defoliation and is affected by the
availability of soluble silica in the nutrient medium (McNaughton et al., 1985).
Source: www.avocadosource.com/papers/research_articles/bekkertf2007e.pdf
In experiments one of the goals is to reduce the influence of outside variables--and running a test on clones will help reduce the issues (recessive traits, pheno attributes, etc) that can fuck up your experiment. That said, professionals do use plants from seeds, but will repeat the experiment multiple times to confirm the cause and relationship.
Lots of notes and pictures become very important....especially in about a 100 days later you scratch your head and ask yourself, "why is this one different...what did I do to cause this?".
There are established procedures for testing Si in soil and plant tissues--test labs are not the expensive (I know).
Cheers!
Hah: Came across this little tidbit--
The amount of silica present in plant tissues can be increased by defoliation of the
plant. Tissue silicification can be increased by defoliation and is affected by the
availability of soluble silica in the nutrient medium (McNaughton et al., 1985).
Source: www.avocadosource.com/papers/research_articles/bekkertf2007e.pdf
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My original post as well as subsequent posts in this thread was from my in depth experience strippin leaves "during" the flowering period since this thread `s based on how to or what actually happens when leaves are stripped during , or rather "when" to strip without stunting plants and causing recovery periods during said "flowering period".....now.....
Since this thread has morphed into full blown "de-foliation" start of grow to finish parameters , since I never witnessed any yield increases per se cuz my shit was dialed from the get , I`ll defer to the folks that strip during veg since I have no knowledge or experience during said veg cycle.....but.....
Increases of 4 oz per plant never happened in my setups by any means , but rather what was left on the vine compared to what originally would`ve been removed showed me that what was lost in yield from removing lower larf was replaced with hard nuggage that leveled returns out and kept yields on a consistent level from those points further .....
Papaduc.....All valid points you bring to the table , but please steer clear of side by side experiments with seedstock , cuz it`s a crapshoot roll of the dice having ANY kind of stable growth comparison between phenotypes of damn near ALL the poly-hybrid in and out crossing that`s been done in the last 20 yrs......
Side by sides with identical clones in indentical surroundings and environment is the only way I`d accept any and all findings from every sequence you suggested that`s been done with this leaf strippin "technique" during veg OR flower , or veg AND flower , or veg and NOT flower , or flower and NOT veg.......anyways.....Remember this guys.......
For every action , there`s an equal and "opposite" reaction with ALL things in life and aspects therein..... Good luck with all yall`s endeavors and findings.......
Leaving the plants alone during pre-veg/veg except for some inner sucker branch trimming and outer plant shaping before the flip worked best for me for sideways vertical canopy development by complete end of stretch , and ......
Then the de-leafing began gradually till they were gone , and if they kept poppin up I knew I hadta reduce my micro and add more bloom while maintaining constant ppm`s across the board till end of cycle ftw.........
Consistent results from 100`s of plants at several locations for several yrs kinda speaks for itself in first hand experience on what the " question by the original " beginning post asked about in "this thread".....regardless....
Many waysta skin a mule......Nailin down what works for you in your environment for "consistent" results is what matters......period....
Peace....DHF.....
I agree with everything you say here.
With regards the seed test run, believe me, I know. I said what I said not withstanding any of the stuff I knew would come my way.
Going from seed it's nothing more than a mess around and until I've got clones running side by side it's nothing I'll invest too much into.
I do think though that there'll be a noticeable effect. I believe there will anyway. That's what I meant when I said it'd be clear enough to show through the obvious variability the seedlings will bring to the table.
It'll be interesting to see how defoliating effects the seedling's development as well as how it affects clones.
thelaughingman
Active member
Some of the different perspectives may come from the vert vs horiz approaches to growing. I grow trees, trained into screens, held back by netting. I had a run go south and only pull 10% at the labs because I did NOT trim any suckers, or fans. Way too much energy was dispersed throughout the plant. The same strain, grown half the size, tested more than twice as high for comparison.
I have stated this before, and it has been pointed out by many. There is a limit to how much you can remove from a plant before you cause shock. There is also a period where you absolutely should not pluck anything from the plant IMO to reduce the risk of said shock, unless you have grown that particular strain before, and know its tolerances. I have pruned too early more than once, and was rewarded by nothing but popcorn.
Right now, if I do not prune, I am fucked. As long as there are no leaves in contact, and all suckers that are not close enough to the light are removed, that is the end of the story to me.
I have stated this before, and it has been pointed out by many. There is a limit to how much you can remove from a plant before you cause shock. There is also a period where you absolutely should not pluck anything from the plant IMO to reduce the risk of said shock, unless you have grown that particular strain before, and know its tolerances. I have pruned too early more than once, and was rewarded by nothing but popcorn.
Right now, if I do not prune, I am fucked. As long as there are no leaves in contact, and all suckers that are not close enough to the light are removed, that is the end of the story to me.
While I understand what Arminius is saying very well, we can actually (based on my experience) at times pluck early intentionally.
I've had two grows that were new strains to me. Kosher Kush and Martian Kush. I am limited in height by a standard grow tent. I let them veg too tall and they stretched a lot more than I expected. So rather than wait till day 21-28 end of stretch period, I hit them hard when they were reaching near max height for my tent. This shut them down from stretching any more for the most part. So I manipulated them to the desired height, along with lots of bending of course.
But yes, it's far better to know the strain already and you'll learn when to do what.
I've had two grows that were new strains to me. Kosher Kush and Martian Kush. I am limited in height by a standard grow tent. I let them veg too tall and they stretched a lot more than I expected. So rather than wait till day 21-28 end of stretch period, I hit them hard when they were reaching near max height for my tent. This shut them down from stretching any more for the most part. So I manipulated them to the desired height, along with lots of bending of course.
But yes, it's far better to know the strain already and you'll learn when to do what.
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Muy correcto.
IMHO, one should view this as a "dynamic process"--responding to the specific situation your plant provides you. When I changed the way I did some training, I also had to adjust the defoliation technique...as the old way "right way" was no longer doing what I wanted.
Last year I started vegging my plants significantly longer and had to I employ a "hybrid" technique that works perfectly, but only at a certain stage of development. What I do in flower really has not changed.
Cheers!
IMHO, one should view this as a "dynamic process"--responding to the specific situation your plant provides you. When I changed the way I did some training, I also had to adjust the defoliation technique...as the old way "right way" was no longer doing what I wanted.
Last year I started vegging my plants significantly longer and had to I employ a "hybrid" technique that works perfectly, but only at a certain stage of development. What I do in flower really has not changed.
Cheers!
That_Dave_Guy
Member
Anxious to see results, i usually only defoliate very late into flower to allow bottom half better light
Green_science
Active member
Circumstance Circumstance Circumstance, I grow very uniform canopies and I absolutely get greater yields de-folling vs not de-defolling, I tried to explain it best I could some pages ago.
DO NOT de-fol your plants during the first 2 weeks of bloom at least not where you want to grow anything, VITAL processes are happening at this time and there is no situation where doing so will improve anything (except possibly if you had an infestation of sort).
Stripping a plant just before switching to bloom is not a good idea for a good many reasons, 1 simple example would be causing wasting of precious energy on repairing wounds and promoting new vegetive growth, when what we want is 100% of it's available energy to go into preparing for bloom.
I usually take clones off of my plants whilst in bloom, this is usually done 2 weeks or so in.
Taking clones off of flowering plants this long into bloom serves a couple of purposes (that suit me great) it means I only have a 6 week wait before said clones can reach said flowering room, and it also serves to de-fol heaps of undergrowth 2 weeks into bloom when new root growth is not of much value and and lower plant is not of much purpose as due to my growing technique will not receive hardly any light, if I need lots of clones I will stretch this over a few days as flash de-folling is a bad idea AT ANY TIME of a plants life cycle.
When it comes to de-folling I am from the camp of doing it at the right time and when/where needed, I.E (not for fun), this isn't to say that I do not de-fol my plants, by the end of their life cycle I have massively stripped them, BUT, my setups call for this, If I was growing a single cola 10ft SSH outdoor in California, I wouldn't be doing much "leaf" pruning at all.
After 2 weeks into 12/12 a plant that ripens in 8 weeks, is not going to be concentrating on vegetive growth anymore, which is why I don't mind pruning my undergrowth at 2 weeks (for my clones) it's not going to yield anything under there for me, and is a win win situation, HOWEVER when we are talking about trimming large leaves in the upper canopy, I still consider 2 weeks 12/12 too early for any sort off mass pruning, IMO said leaves are still CRITICAL at this point (more information in my previous post in this thread), and such stripping of anything more than a FEW leaves that are DEFINITELY in the way of a DECENT sized branch that otherwise would be receiving light, is going to cost you.
On an 8 week blooming plant I start really picking around week 4 I guess, and in all honesty when I am doing this I am not specifically trying to get light on to the lower forming flowers THEMSELVES as much as I am trying to SHARE light to the lower sets of leaves feeding said flowering sites, only the ones that I can see will stack up into a nice formation. Those of you who know how it's done properly will completely understand what I am saying, and if you don't then understand eventually you will, its all in the technique, SACRIFICE some higher leaves to THIN the canopy.
Below is a good example, this is a canopy of mine SEMI de-fol, I haven't got a picture for you of after, but it will help describe what I mean, now every node formation we can see starting to stack up here probably has, for example, 10 nodes 1 inch apart, now if I just let this canopy take it's natural coarse with NO intervention, I would have well formed colas but perhaps only 6 inches long, i.e. well formed flowers from 6 nodes down from the top tip, HOWEVER with a bit of intervention I can improve on that.
Lets take said stem for example with the 10 tight nodes, if I de-fol it JUST correctly and at the right time, for example 1 or 2 higher leaves on the stem/branch at week 3 and another few a couple days/week later, and eventually perhaps a few more at week 6, it will expose these lower leaves (and the bottom 4 nodes from our example, that previously without intervention would have received very little light), FAR more usable light, and THIS DOES and WILL increase yield (provided it's warranted and done right). If this doesn't ring right to you or you object it, then ask yourself, "are my buds from single nodes any "FATTER/WIDER" the ones that formed colas" of coarse not. The point I make is that your plant is using some of its energy to try and produce its fruit at these lower node sites that will never produce anything because there is little to no light down there, some of you think but yeh, If I don't grow buds down there then the extra energy will just eventually mean extra weight up top, and why this is true to a point, its still far more beneficial to have them extra 4 stacked up nodes (we talked about) forming part of your cola. Don't believe me, think of this example, I grow a healthy plant that forms 12 colas, each cola consisting of 10 nodes, for a 120 bud sites in total, this plant yields me 3 oz, now take the same plant again only this time, during flower cut off 119 bud sites as soon as you see them forming from the 120 nodes, thus leaving us 1 bud site from one node, you can leave every leaf on this plant so no light is wasted, are you getting where this is going? That single bud site might yield a gram, pretty far from 3 oz, sure plants divert energy but, as I mentioned its more beneficial to allow light through and make use of flowering sites, to an extent, i.e. they are capable forming part of the top cola you have going on.
^^^ In this example, employing the right de-folling technique at the correct time/s would net you somewhere, I guess in the region of, 15% increase of yield, thinning out that top layer of the canopies leaves is not going to affect the size of the flowers on the top of the canopy, what it is going to do however, is going to give 100s of bud sites, and leaves responsible for said bud sites , access to the light they need to build, that without light would of otherwise never amounted to anything.
To summarise my methods, I grow SOG/SCROG hybrid, but instead of having 6 4 inch colas per sq ft, I have 6 8-10 inch colas per sq ft, getting light to penetrate deep enough for 10 inch colas to form, in a canopy like this is only possible with de-folling, these are not exact measurements I am just trying to convey the ideology behind it
Good night.
DO NOT de-fol your plants during the first 2 weeks of bloom at least not where you want to grow anything, VITAL processes are happening at this time and there is no situation where doing so will improve anything (except possibly if you had an infestation of sort).
Stripping a plant just before switching to bloom is not a good idea for a good many reasons, 1 simple example would be causing wasting of precious energy on repairing wounds and promoting new vegetive growth, when what we want is 100% of it's available energy to go into preparing for bloom.
I usually take clones off of my plants whilst in bloom, this is usually done 2 weeks or so in.
Taking clones off of flowering plants this long into bloom serves a couple of purposes (that suit me great) it means I only have a 6 week wait before said clones can reach said flowering room, and it also serves to de-fol heaps of undergrowth 2 weeks into bloom when new root growth is not of much value and and lower plant is not of much purpose as due to my growing technique will not receive hardly any light, if I need lots of clones I will stretch this over a few days as flash de-folling is a bad idea AT ANY TIME of a plants life cycle.
When it comes to de-folling I am from the camp of doing it at the right time and when/where needed, I.E (not for fun), this isn't to say that I do not de-fol my plants, by the end of their life cycle I have massively stripped them, BUT, my setups call for this, If I was growing a single cola 10ft SSH outdoor in California, I wouldn't be doing much "leaf" pruning at all.
After 2 weeks into 12/12 a plant that ripens in 8 weeks, is not going to be concentrating on vegetive growth anymore, which is why I don't mind pruning my undergrowth at 2 weeks (for my clones) it's not going to yield anything under there for me, and is a win win situation, HOWEVER when we are talking about trimming large leaves in the upper canopy, I still consider 2 weeks 12/12 too early for any sort off mass pruning, IMO said leaves are still CRITICAL at this point (more information in my previous post in this thread), and such stripping of anything more than a FEW leaves that are DEFINITELY in the way of a DECENT sized branch that otherwise would be receiving light, is going to cost you.
On an 8 week blooming plant I start really picking around week 4 I guess, and in all honesty when I am doing this I am not specifically trying to get light on to the lower forming flowers THEMSELVES as much as I am trying to SHARE light to the lower sets of leaves feeding said flowering sites, only the ones that I can see will stack up into a nice formation. Those of you who know how it's done properly will completely understand what I am saying, and if you don't then understand eventually you will, its all in the technique, SACRIFICE some higher leaves to THIN the canopy.
Below is a good example, this is a canopy of mine SEMI de-fol, I haven't got a picture for you of after, but it will help describe what I mean, now every node formation we can see starting to stack up here probably has, for example, 10 nodes 1 inch apart, now if I just let this canopy take it's natural coarse with NO intervention, I would have well formed colas but perhaps only 6 inches long, i.e. well formed flowers from 6 nodes down from the top tip, HOWEVER with a bit of intervention I can improve on that.
Lets take said stem for example with the 10 tight nodes, if I de-fol it JUST correctly and at the right time, for example 1 or 2 higher leaves on the stem/branch at week 3 and another few a couple days/week later, and eventually perhaps a few more at week 6, it will expose these lower leaves (and the bottom 4 nodes from our example, that previously without intervention would have received very little light), FAR more usable light, and THIS DOES and WILL increase yield (provided it's warranted and done right). If this doesn't ring right to you or you object it, then ask yourself, "are my buds from single nodes any "FATTER/WIDER" the ones that formed colas" of coarse not. The point I make is that your plant is using some of its energy to try and produce its fruit at these lower node sites that will never produce anything because there is little to no light down there, some of you think but yeh, If I don't grow buds down there then the extra energy will just eventually mean extra weight up top, and why this is true to a point, its still far more beneficial to have them extra 4 stacked up nodes (we talked about) forming part of your cola. Don't believe me, think of this example, I grow a healthy plant that forms 12 colas, each cola consisting of 10 nodes, for a 120 bud sites in total, this plant yields me 3 oz, now take the same plant again only this time, during flower cut off 119 bud sites as soon as you see them forming from the 120 nodes, thus leaving us 1 bud site from one node, you can leave every leaf on this plant so no light is wasted, are you getting where this is going? That single bud site might yield a gram, pretty far from 3 oz, sure plants divert energy but, as I mentioned its more beneficial to allow light through and make use of flowering sites, to an extent, i.e. they are capable forming part of the top cola you have going on.
^^^ In this example, employing the right de-folling technique at the correct time/s would net you somewhere, I guess in the region of, 15% increase of yield, thinning out that top layer of the canopies leaves is not going to affect the size of the flowers on the top of the canopy, what it is going to do however, is going to give 100s of bud sites, and leaves responsible for said bud sites , access to the light they need to build, that without light would of otherwise never amounted to anything.
To summarise my methods, I grow SOG/SCROG hybrid, but instead of having 6 4 inch colas per sq ft, I have 6 8-10 inch colas per sq ft, getting light to penetrate deep enough for 10 inch colas to form, in a canopy like this is only possible with de-folling, these are not exact measurements I am just trying to convey the ideology behind it
Good night.
Here-say, anecdote and opinion are NOT science. That is why there are multiple contradicting conclusions in this thread.
There are protocols to a proper experiment.
You realize side by side experiments have too many variables when it comes to plants right? The protocols for a true side by side cannot be met so why cry about it. If you look through the growers on here and deduce which ones defoliate vs not you can see the more experienced members defoliate at some point. Id love to see anyone get stellar yields from any og without defoliation. I love when people dive in and just say "well all of this isnt science its opinion". Yet, they dont have any imput just remarks about experience being drivel. Its stupid. Hey guys its not science so your words and experience are meaningless. Pfffffft, please. Any seasoned grower knows defoliation is crucial indoors. Thanks for adding nothing.
