My Room Build / Design Thread

[anon0988]

Ok guys, starting out a thread to post all my questions about a basement setup I'm building. It has two 4'x4' rooms that will be used to flower in, in I'm thinking a flip flop manner. Figured others might like to see the progress and provide input / suggestions. Here we go!

General layout:


I didn't want to have to do major changes later to upgrade, so I am trying to build it out right the first time, which is part of why I'm doing this thread. I started by walling off the (on the diagram) the left side main interior wall. I did standard framing method with 2x4's. All interior walls in the diagram are this made with that same standard method. The floor of the room is concrete, so I put down 2x4's and then a 5/8" sheet of plywood. I then framed the two outside walls of the room (bottom and right main) and then a middle wall to create the two 4'x4' rooms. I'm currently drywalling (probably tomorrow) the interior of the bottom room, I finished the top one tonight.

For power I have one circuit already ran. Although I did most of the prework (holes, boxes, running wire), my friend who is an electrician by trade did all of the actual connection points and difficult stuff. I used 12 gauge romex wire, which should be perfect for a 20a circuit (which is what the breaker is). The run comes from the breaker box, along a ceiling joist and then down the outer right side wall of the top 4x4 room. The first outlet on the circuit is a 20a GFCI plug, which I'm told makes the rest of that leg GFCI as well. The GFCI outlet is the one on the outside right side of the top 4x4 room, so it can be reset even if one of the rooms is dark. After that, each room has 2 outlets (also 20a). The outlets are probably 18 inches off the floor maybe? Because I have a friend who can help with electrical, I'm planning on adding more power outlets on a new circuit on an as-needed basis.

I also have an existing 240v (I think) plug on the board with the breaker box. The plug looks like this and it says it's apparently 30a 125v/250v. I'm thinking I could maybe use this for the ballast, or an AC when I eventually add one. I'd like to do a flip-flop setup so maybe that receptacle could feed the flip box.

I have no for sure idea what I'm doing yet for ventilation, but lots of ideas and options. My goal is to minimize on fans and control temperatures. VERY open for input on this. I will be using air cooled hoods, I'm thinking 6" size. Also, let me give a little more info here first: The area to the left of the flowering rooms is bigger than the left side wall shows. I only made it that size to be easy to draw, but in reality the room continues on for probably 15 more feet. Anyway, because it's winter rather than venting hood air outside, I'm thinking of using the room the left as a big lung room to absorb the heat produced by the light(s). More thoughts to come on this, I'll probably draw up some example diagram ideas.

For lights I currently have 1 400w in a hood, but am eventually wanting to do probably 1 kw lights on both rooms in a flip-flop setup. First run will probably use the 400, unless I end up with extra money for an upgrade quick. I'm thinking at first, I'm going to do just one room (the top one) while I finish the rest of the build. Then when the first cycle is done in the top room switch to flip-flop. I figure this will give me time to adjust to the larger area, do additional planning to figure stuff out, etc. I haven't decided on soil or hydro yet. Soil seems easy to get setup so I can put my efforts into the build, but I was considering doing a 5 gallon bucket single non-recirculating DWC setup too. Basically just 4 buckets per room, not hooked together yet because I'm not that experienced yet.

Anyway, that's where I'll trail off for now. There's some general setup info to get the discussion started and I'll definitely be adding more as I go.

 

[Coconutz]

4x4 rooms are gonna be tough if you use AC unless you make a lung room. You will need a space for the AC and a dehuey(unless you exhaust during lights out)
I would just do adjustawings and massive extraction if your climate permits.
Can you just use the larger space for flower? Its so much easier to use a big ass room and put your money into lighting

 

[anon0988]

A bit more about where the project is currently at

A bit more about where the project is currently at

Got to reading this and figured I'd add some more:

The left side wall of the flowering rooms in insulated with R-13, as is the wall that is on the top side. You can't tell it from my crappy diagram, but the wall on the top side isn't the outer wall of the building, it's framed in then insulated then sheet rocked.

Right now I have the sheetrock put up completely on the top side 4x4 room, I just have to do the joints and sand it. Is drywall once it's finished good for sealed room? The bottom side of the middle dividing wall still isn't sheet rocked yet. I've been caulking the back of the drywall where it meets the studs to try and create an air-tight layer, wherever it's been possible. After I have the top room mudded and sanded I'll probably start a cycle in there with the 400w setup I have as quick as possible. I want to be able to let that side run while I finish the rest of the build.

For the doors I'm going to use a roll down reflectix door, inspired by (I think it was...) Third Coast. I'll edit this and add links to it when I get it located. They're basically just a roll of reflectix and velcro that you roll up and down to open and close. The velcro holds the reflectix to the door frame. If anyone knows this post for reference before I am able to find the link, please post.

So as was mentioned earlier, I'm thinking 400w for the first run while I finish the rest. I think that will give me time to make sure all of my systems are working well. Odor control is a HUGE issue, so taking a smaller first run should help figure it out. This will also give me time to research the flip/flop box I'm going to have my friend build, and any pointers there or links to existing good threads would be appreciated.

 

[anon0988]

4x4 rooms are gonna be tough if you use AC unless you make a lung room. You will need a space for the AC and a dehuey(unless you exhaust during lights out)
I would just do adjustawings and massive extraction if your climate permits.
Can you just use the larger space for flower? Its so much easier to use a big ass room and put your money into lighting

Unfortunately I can't use the whole space for a grow. This is the section of the basement that was designated for it. As mentioned above, I could certainly use the large room the left side of the flowering rooms as a large lung room, or the L shaped room on the right and bottom.

For AC I was actually thinking of just using a window AC. Because this is a basement I have a window in the lower section of the right side exterior wall. The window is about 5-6 ft off the ground inside the basement, and just above ground level outside. Pretty sure the AC could fit in there perfectly. Then for a dehuey I was thining of putting it in the top right corner, sort of out of the way. The electrical panel in that corner is about 4 ft off the ground, so something could sit below it in that corner no problem.


EDIT: I created an image explaining the above:

 

[Granger2]

On the left where it continues for 15 more feet, what's in there? Are there windows, doors, water heaters, water source, etc.? Where's your water coming from? -granger

 

[anon0988]

On the left where it continues for 15 more feet, what's in there? Are there windows, doors, water heaters, water source, etc.? Where's your water coming from? -granger

To the left is basically a garage that was converted to storage area. It has no windows and a garage door that can technically be opened, but never really is. For water there are hot/cold lines I plan on tapping in to on the ceiling of the lower right hand corner. The water lines feed the sink in the restroom. I'm planning on putting in a R/O system there on the wall so I can stop buying distilled water.

 

[anon0988]

I've realized that the drywall job I did sucks. I've got big gaps in some spots that has slowed down my finishing of the top room. Going to have to make another trip by the local home supply store and grab some durabond to fill in the cracks. This opinion isn't based on any kind of personal experience but rather off of youtube videos, so if anyone has other tips, please let me know.

 

[Granger2]

Use something with preferably no Volatile Organic Compounds [V.O.C.]. -granger

 

[CanniDo Cowboy]

Ok guys, starting out a thread to post all my questions about a basement setup I'm building. It has two 4'x4' rooms that will be used to flower in, in I'm thinking a flip flop manner. Figured others might like to see the progress and provide input / suggestions. Here we go!

General layout:
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=241964&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

I didn't want to have to do major changes later to upgrade, so I am trying to build it out right the first time, which is part of why I'm doing this thread. I started by walling off the (on the diagram) the left side main interior wall. I did standard framing method with 2x4's. All interior walls in the diagram are this made with that same standard method. The floor of the room is concrete, so I put down 2x4's and then a 5/8" sheet of plywood. I then framed the two outside walls of the room (bottom and right main) and then a middle wall to create the two 4'x4' rooms. I'm currently drywalling (probably tomorrow) the interior of the bottom room, I finished the top one tonight.

For power I have one circuit already ran. Although I did most of the prework (holes, boxes, running wire), my friend who is an electrician by trade did all of the actual connection points and difficult stuff. I used 12 gauge romex wire, which should be perfect for a 20a circuit (which is what the breaker is). The run comes from the breaker box, along a ceiling joist and then down the outer right side wall of the top 4x4 room. The first outlet on the circuit is a 20a GFCI plug, which I'm told makes the rest of that leg GFCI as well. The GFCI outlet is the one on the outside right side of the top 4x4 room, so it can be reset even if one of the rooms is dark. After that, each room has 2 outlets (also 20a). The outlets are probably 18 inches off the floor maybe? Because I have a friend who can help with electrical, I'm planning on adding more power outlets on a new circuit on an as-needed basis.

I also have an existing 240v (I think) plug on the board with the breaker box. The plug looks like this and it says it's apparently 30a 125v/250v. I'm thinking I could maybe use this for the ballast, or an AC when I eventually add one. I'd like to do a flip-flop setup so maybe that receptacle could feed the flip box.

I have no for sure idea what I'm doing yet for ventilation, but lots of ideas and options. My goal is to minimize on fans and control temperatures. VERY open for input on this. I will be using air cooled hoods, I'm thinking 6" size. Also, let me give a little more info here first: The area to the left of the flowering rooms is bigger than the left side wall shows. I only made it that size to be easy to draw, but in reality the room continues on for probably 15 more feet. Anyway, because it's winter rather than venting hood air outside, I'm thinking of using the room the left as a big lung room to absorb the heat produced by the light(s). More thoughts to come on this, I'll probably draw up some example diagram ideas.

For lights I currently have 1 400w in a hood, but am eventually wanting to do probably 1 kw lights on both rooms in a flip-flop setup. First run will probably use the 400, unless I end up with extra money for an upgrade quick. I'm thinking at first, I'm going to do just one room (the top one) while I finish the rest of the build. Then when the first cycle is done in the top room switch to flip-flop. I figure this will give me time to adjust to the larger area, do additional planning to figure stuff out, etc. I haven't decided on soil or hydro yet. Soil seems easy to get setup so I can put my efforts into the build, but I was considering doing a 5 gallon bucket single non-recirculating DWC setup too. Basically just 4 buckets per room, not hooked together yet because I'm not that experienced yet.

Anyway, that's where I'll trail off for now. There's some general setup info to get the discussion started and I'll definitely be adding more as I go.

A couple of things (based on personal exp):

The plywood floor- You will have a trapped layer of air being heated from above the wood floor while at the same time being cooled by the concrete slab which is drawing colder temps from the soil beneath the slab. An ideal environment for mold, mildew, algae etc. to begin forming/growing on the slab surface. Additionally, no matter how careful you are, you will have water spillage, in one form or another. I would first seal the concrete with a concrete sealer. (Killz) would be my choice, at minimum. i would also cover the plywood with contractor plastic sheeting with several inches running up the walls to prevent spillage from entering the void area, which would be just another fungus accelerant. Personally, I detest a plastic covered floor. Rips and tears can be a problem from something as simple as constant foot traffic let alone having to lift heavy just-watered pots (soil) to move instead of simple sliding/spinning. Allowing water from a possible flooded tray/container(DWC) to seep into just one undetected small hole, created by just one small rock stuck unknowingly to the bottom of your shoe can result in a wet plywood floor, then a wet slab and thus, fungus-game on. It should be noted plastic was never designed to be used as a floor covering.

On the other hand, Ive found that a bare concrete floor is an ideal flooring in that it will absorb over-spill(within reason) and the slab itself will actually help maintain cooler temps in the room during the summer months. Additionally, you dont have to worry about standing/puddling water when doing foliar spraying etc and again, the overspray being absorbed into the slab has a cooling effect which dries quite rapidly. Finally, a light spray treatment of water/bleach/Azatrol or other insect preventer, when applied to the concrete slab surface after each run is absorbed and insures an ongoing, constant insect barrier against spider mites especially. Anything applied to a hard surface will be eventually washed or evaporated away. All that said, during winter runs when the concrete slab is much colder, I lay down 1" styrofoam sheeting under the pots to prevent the slab from drawing the heat from the pot soil.

The 20 amp circuit - Any grow room op worth its salt should be 30 amp, minimum. A single 400w on a 20 amp circ maybe OK but I would not run multiple 1000 watters on less than a 30 amp, let alone one. And you will most likely have and or be adding addtional components such as fans, heaters, air conditioners, dehueys, timers etc and you will find the 20 amp will be severely overdrawn. A min 30 amp circuit will be invaluable and much much safer. In a grow room your size I would have 2 -30 amp circuits. Rule of thumb: Always have more electrical capacity than you need. Its the Achilles Heal of any grow room.

Also, GFCI's are required in areas where water or moisture are present (Kitchens, bathrooms, outside wall outlets etc), so it would suffice to say they are not grow room friendly. Overspray from watering or even humidity-caused moisture forming on an electrical cord will cause the GFCI breaker to trip. Just make sure all your "appliances" are 3 pronged (with ground) or grounded internally...

Good luck and hey dude, giddy-up grow...CC

 

[CanniDo Cowboy]

I've realized that the drywall job I did sucks. I've got big gaps in some spots that has slowed down my finishing of the top room. Going to have to make another trip by the local home supply store and grab some durabond to fill in the cracks. This opinion isn't based on any kind of personal experience but rather off of youtube videos, so if anyone has other tips, please let me know.

Typically, with large cracks, sheetrock tape should be applied first over the joints so as not to allow the 'mud' to push thru the crack/joint and then fall out the other side of the sheetrock. Get a roll of nylon sheetrock tape/mesh, very handy. It has a sticky side similar to regular tape. Apply over the crack/joint like masking tape and youre ready to "mud". This time of year, with cooler temps, I would use a 'hot mud". It dries to sand in less than 8 hours. Other standard textures/joint fillers can take over 24 hours. Ask the store for "hot mud". The number 20 type (20 minute dry time). Better than Permabond and much cheaper. Youll most likely need a sack, not a small tub. Theyll know what youre after. Mix small batches, it sets up very quickly...

Tools needed- 6 inch spackle blade
12 inch texture trowel
16 inch mud tray

Mix a cup or 2 of the "flour" with water in the mud tray. A "pointer" trowel works good for this. Use cold water in the mix for a slower set up/working time, warm water if you think you can keep up cause it will go much quicker. You want the mix "creamy". You know you have the right texture when you can scoop some on the end of the blade, let it fall back into the tray and begins to "stack", somewhere in between pancake batter and peanut butter...

Float/cover the tape using the 6inch blade, apprx 1/8 inch thick. Let dry, sand lightly, feathering out the edges. Stop sanding if you begin uncovering the tape.

After first sand, apply second mud coat using the 12 inch. Let dry, sand again lightly. Oh, by the way, the ceiling will suck in all phases...lol CC

 

[anon0988]

A couple of things (based on personal exp):

The plywood floor- You will have a trapped layer of air being heated from above the wood floor while at the same time being cooled by the concrete slab which is drawing colder temps from the soil beneath the slab. An ideal environment for mold, mildew, algae etc. to begin forming/growing on the slab surface. Additionally, no matter how careful you are, you will have water spillage, in one form or another. I would first seal the concrete with a concrete sealer. (Killz) would be my choice, at minimum. i would also cover the plywood with contractor plastic sheeting with several inches running up the walls to prevent spillage from entering the void area, which would be just another fungus accelerant. Personally, I detest a plastic covered floor. Rips and tears can be a problem from something as simple as constant foot traffic let alone having to lift heavy just-watered pots (soil) to move instead of simple sliding/spinning. Allowing water from a possible flooded tray/container(DWC) to seep into just one undetected small hole, created by just one small rock stuck unknowingly to the bottom of your shoe can result in a wet plywood floor, then a wet slab and thus, fungus-game on. It should be noted plastic was never designed to be used as a floor covering.

On the other hand, Ive found that a bare concrete floor is an ideal flooring in that it will absorb over-spill(within reason) and the slab itself will actually help maintain cooler temps in the room during the summer months. Additionally, you dont have to worry about standing/puddling water when doing foliar spraying etc and again, the overspray being absorbed into the slab has a cooling effect which dries quite rapidly. Finally, a light spray treatment of water/bleach/Azatrol or other insect preventer, when applied to the concrete slab surface after each run is absorbed and insures an ongoing, constant insect barrier against spider mites especially. Anything applied to a hard surface will be eventually washed or evaporated away. All that said, during winter runs when the concrete slab is much colder, I lay down 1" styrofoam sheeting under the pots to prevent the slab from drawing the heat from the pot soil.

The 20 amp circuit - Any grow room op worth its salt should be 30 amp, minimum. A single 400w on a 20 amp circ maybe OK but I would not run multiple 1000 watters on less than a 30 amp, let alone one. And you will most likely have and or be adding addtional components such as fans, heaters, air conditioners, dehueys, timers etc and you will find the 20 amp will be severely overdrawn. A min 30 amp circuit will be invaluable and much much safer. In a grow room your size I would have 2 -30 amp circuits. Rule of thumb: Always have more electrical capacity than you need. Its the Achilles Heal of any grow room.

Also, GFCI's are required in areas where water or moisture are present (Kitchens, bathrooms, outside wall outlets etc), so it would suffice to say they are not grow room friendly. Overspray from watering or even humidity-caused moisture forming on an electrical cord will cause the GFCI breaker to trip. Just make sure all your "appliances" are 3 pronged (with ground) or grounded internally...

Good luck and hey dude, giddy-up grow...CC

For the floor, it's too late to change anything now, too much of the structure is already in place. I would say in an 'ideal' setup I would have a fresh slab and would seal it, but I was working with what I had. I read somewhere to create a barrier between the concrete and growing medium, that's why I raise the floor from just the concrete. I plan on putting pond liner down eventually like I've seen in other setups, with around 8" of it going up the wall.

For power, a few things. First, I guess I thought 20a was all that you could throw on a standard 120v residential run. Second, that run isn't going to be my only power. I build those ones low in the grow rooms for stuff like air pumps, fans, etc. The main lighting will be on it's own dedicated circuit. I have 2 more empty breaker spots and an unused 240v outlet (described above), so I figure I should be good. The GFCI outlet is on the outside of the room, the outlets that are covered by the GFCI but just regular outlets are the ones inside the rooms. Again I'm by no means an expert, but I thought because a grow room would have moisture and such you would WANT to install GFCI, not the other way around?

Off to the home supply store to pick up some of the mesh tape, then keeping busy tonight with that. I'll probably post an update later.

 

[anon0988]

Update

Update

I've got the whole inside taped, mudded, and sanded. It's been serving as a veg room while the clones get to transplant size. I think I've decided on going dirt for my first run through it. Going to do 4 5-gal buckets in a scrog.

I did notice something strange on one of the clones I cut. There are quite a few fan leaves on it that have 11 blades, rather than 7. I would say more than half of the leaves on the plant are that way. Is this anything anyone here has seen before? Should I throw it, keep it, etc?

 

[CanniDo Cowboy]

Oh no, somebody doesnt like my tips/suggestions..?? Normally, I let this sort of cyber-nonsense slide but I'm gonna throw a rope on this one. Since when are tips/suggestions regarding personal health (POSSIBLE MOLD) & electrical suggestions (POSSIBLY BURNING YOUR F'N HOUSE DOWN), not helpful?? Not to mention a few time and money saving construction tips.

I would suggest to the fairly transparent disagreer, instead of pretending to solicit advice/suggestions: "starting out a thread to post all my questions about a basement setup I'm building. Figured others might like to see the progress and provide input / suggestions", create a journal and just simply share your how-to knowledge, thereby keeping a seemingly misguided ego intact, I guess... *And you wont have to continue to NOT thank anyone for their suggestions/tips/help, which I might add, you asked for in the first place and, and either way- you will have a more successful thread...Good luck man...CC

 

[anon0988]

Oh no, somebody doesnt like my tips/suggestions..?? Normally, I let this sort of cyber-nonsense slide but I'm gonna throw a rope on this one. Since when are tips/suggestions regarding personal health (POSSIBLE MOLD) & electrical suggestions (POSSIBLY BURNING YOUR F'N HOUSE DOWN), not helpful?? Not to mention a few time and money saving construction tips.

I would suggest to the fairly transparent disagreer, instead of pretending to solicit advice/suggestions: "starting out a thread to post all my questions about a basement setup I'm building. Figured others might like to see the progress and provide input / suggestions", create a journal and just simply share your how-to knowledge, thereby keeping a seemingly misguided ego intact, I guess... *And you wont have to continue to NOT thank anyone for their suggestions/tips/help, which I might add, you asked for in the first place and, and either way- you will have a more successful thread...Good luck man...CC

So after re-reading the series of posts reading up to this I really don't get what you're upset about. I obviously read what you said carefully, provided a point by point response with what I felt was the relevant info to help clarify. If you're upset about my responses, sorry? Going over it again, I still don't get it. On the floors I basically agreed with you, I even said in a future situation I WOULD try to seal the floors like you suggested, as well as use the plastic liner. I stand by my thought that for an accessories power circuit, 20a on 12 gauge wire is ample. Maybe you misunderstood, but that's why I further explained what it might run, and that lighting would be on a dedicated circuit. I also stand by my thought that GFCI is the way to go for grows, and I've heard multiple other people here say the same thing. The last part of my post was saying I was off to store to buy the mesh tape you suggested in your next post, so I again don't get what you're mad about.

In short, sorry if you were offended. While I disagree with you on some points (gfci, 20a vs 30a), I'm taking other suggestions of yours to heart. I've clicked 'helpful' on both of the posts in question also, which it looks like everyone else didn't, maybe the 'not helpful' clicks is what you're mad about?

 

[johnnybravo]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=117867

 

[CanniDo Cowboy]

Oh no, somebody doesnt like my tips/suggestions..?? Normally, I let this sort of cyber-nonsense slide but I'm gonna throw a rope on this one. Since when are tips/suggestions regarding personal health (POSSIBLE MOLD) & electrical suggestions (POSSIBLY BURNING YOUR F'N HOUSE DOWN), not helpful?? Not to mention a few time and money saving construction tips.

I would suggest to the fairly transparent disagreer, instead of pretending to solicit advice/suggestions: "starting out a thread to post all my questions about a basement setup I'm building. Figured others might like to see the progress and provide input / suggestions", create a journal and just simply share your how-to knowledge, thereby keeping a seemingly misguided ego intact, I guess... *And you wont have to continue to NOT thank anyone for their suggestions/tips/help, which I might add, you asked for in the first place and, and either way- you will have a more successful thread...Good luck man...CC

There is nothing in my above post to indicate me being upset, mad, misunderstanding anything or offended. If you want to know something, ask. If you want to tell me something you know, I'll listen. I'm just not interested in somebody wanting me to know what they know by pretending they dont. Either you know...or you dont. How can you tell the difference? When someone asks for tips/advice/suggestions and when given, proceeds to tell what they already did or what they are going to do regardless of my asked for input. And that, just ends up being a waste of my time...

Just a pet peeve of mine here at ICMag: Knowing the difference between starting a thread seeking answers opposite that of sharing knowledge by maintaining a journal, from which others might learn.

In simple terms, you seem to already know what you want to do and how you want to do it. So, just do it. IC can always use another quality "journal"...Again and with sincerity, good luck...CC

 

[DrySiftWizard]

Always build your room as big as you can. Trying to stuff 2 smaller ones into the same amount of space is not only going to create issues but make it more difficult/expensive to build.

I have built 50+ rooms and would not even consider doing 2 like this over a bigger single room.

Just me, though. Getting 2lbs per 1kw isn't that difficult.

I saw you are only going to run a 400w.. that for sure?

Also, what the other dude said.. get a 30a breaker. You might 'think' 20a is enough, but I can assure you even if you do your math correct sometimes, other issues arise. I wouldn't be caught dead w/o a 30a at least.

Cheers.

 

[anon0988]

Update:
Went to the local hydro shop tonight and bought some rapid rooters since I'm doing dirt. Mother plants were in need of a trim so I started 9 clones (6 Medi #2 by Seedsman, 3 Purple Haze #1 by Positronics). I have some sort of tiny insects on one of the mother plants, no major damage other than some yellow leaves from having ph off last week. I did notice some tiny spider webs on some of the lowest leaves, not sure if it's related but the first thing I thought was spider mites. I've never had them before so I don't know if that's what it looks like for sure or not. I'll have to look into foliar spray solutions. Also considering my options for fertilizer: I already have GH Flora 3-pack plus some extras in the series (flora blend, diamond nectar, liquid koolbloomz), but I considered going with Fox Farms soil trio as I've had good luck with that before with soil. I bought the GH series and extras to run hydro with but I think it can technically be used with soil.

DrySiftWizard - I'm doing initial vegging of the mothers and clones under a 400w, yeah. I will eventually upgrade to a 1kw on each of the rooms, but haven't bought the ballast and bulb yet. I was considering on this very first run just using the 400 and doing a 3x3 footprint scrog.

 

[DrySiftWizard]

Dude if you have mites you should almost just stop now and start over.

I'm not even kidding. Did you sanitize that room well? Thy are no joke. You'll think they're gone.. then about half way through.. POOF.. there they are again.

I've had to ditch entire crops.

 

[Granger2]

I wouldn't give up so easily. Go to Can. Infirmary, check Spider Mite Stickies. It's not that hard to rid yourself of the Borg, even organically if you follow certain procedures, and use the right products. Dunking entire plant above ground is preferable to spraying. Good experience, and satisfying too. Good luck. -granger