bobblehead's organic bedroom of high brix gardening

[SRGB]

bobblehead:

[#252]

I don't know about the exchange of electrical charges...

--

[#254]

Its even more difficult to balance coco's CEC with slow release ferts. I'm sure it can be done, but I'm not trying to experiment.


Hi, bobblehead.

In general, from what we could gather, it appears plants` roots (at least to the extent that humans have an appreciable understanding of the process) absorb `nutrients`, positive (cations) or negative (anions), that is, `electrical charges` (ions) in a solution, and correspondingly release ions (of an opposite charge) into the surrounding media (soil, moist air, or water culture).
The process could be described as `cation exchange`, and if measuring a medium for its ability to facilitate this exchange process, the process could be described as `cation exchange capacity`, or, the `capacity` (total amount of cations capable in a given medium) - to facilitate conduction of electrical charges between its physical composition or `solution` and the plants` roots.

Example cations (positively `+` charged):
Hydrogen (H+), postassium (K+), calcium (Ca++), magnesium (Mg++), ammonium (NH4+), iron (Fe++), manganese (Mn++), zinc (Zn++). Absorbed on the negatively charged collidial surfaces of the media.

Examplee anions (negatively `-` charged):
Nitrates (NO3-), phosphates (HPO4--), sulphates (SO4--), chlorides (Cl-). Predominantly found in nutrient `solution`, absorbed when the solution flows over the roots, and can possibly be washed out of the medium with overwatering.


For example, with the uptake of one (1) calcium (Ca++) ion the root releases two hydrogen ions (H+). Removal of anions, i.e.g., nitrates and phospahates absorbed by plant roots releases hydroxyl groups (OH-) and bicarbonates (HCO3-) in to the surrounding medium.

The above process, in brief, might tend to affect the pH of the surrounding medium. Removal of cations from the medium might tend to make the pH of the medium more acidic, while removal, or `exchange` of anions might tend to make the medium more alkaline, which might lend to futher interpretations of `EC`, or the `electrical conductivity` of a given solution - and the corresponding pH at a given EC.

Additionally, certain organisms have appeared to have developed a symbiotic relationship with plant roots, which appears to facilitate nutrition for both the organisms and the plants. See below at Plant Acquisition of Nutrients: Symbioses with Soil-based Microorganisms. Though the article does not address the types of substrate in which those organisms can thrive in; e.g., inert rocks, soil, coco coir, peat, etc. If their nutrition is primarily derived from plant roots, the medium might only need to permit persistent proximity to the roots, whether soil or rocks, as the population would not necessarily derive its nutrition from the soil nor rocks, but the roots themselves.

We will not delve into the further corresponding topic of solubility of specific elements or compounds in a solution at a given solution pH, yet it might be equally revealing to examine which elements are chemically soluble at which pH ranges.

Thes following articles (excerpts) might assist in more clearly defining some common terms, chemical and electrical properties, and corresponding processes:

The pH Factor in Hydroponics by Dr. Lynette Morgan

Definition of pH

The scientific definition of pH is `the negative logarithm of the hydrogen ion
concentration,` but in everyday terms the pH is a scale for measuring the acidity or alkalinity of a solution. Pure water, which has the chemical formula H20, means it has one hydrogen (H+) and one hydroxyl ion (OH-) - perhaps better expressed as H-OH. Because water has one hydrogen and one hydroxyl group, which split up or `dissociate` into electrically charged particles called ions, it`s balanced with an acid and alkaline and is therefore neutral:

H2O --> H-OH --> H+ + OH-

The positively charged particle (H+) is the hydrogen ion, and the negative particle (OH-) is the hydroxyl ion.

--

The most common method of buffering a nutrient solution is by adding small amounts of the ammonium form of nitrogen (NH4+) in the original formulation. Ammonium nitrogen in time tends to reduce pH, whereas nitrate (NO3-) increases it. If nitrogen is in the ammonium form (NH4+), hydrogen ions are discharged through the plants roots resulting in a lower pH, and if it`s in the nitrate form (NO3-), hydroxyl ions (OH-) are discharged and the pH in the root zone is increased. This provides a useful method of controlling pH swings, but not morethan 20% of the total nitrogen should be in the ammonium form.

Electrical Conductivity in Hydroponics by Dr. Lynette Morgan

Conductivity and Nutrient Chemistry

Hydroponic fertilizers are very soluble compunds that possess ionic bonds. We commonly call these hydroponic fertilizers `nutrient salts` becuase they bond between two electrostatic attraction between positively and negatively charged ions. When these ionically bonded compounds are added to water to make up a nutrient solution, they break up (dissociate) into their differently charged ions. This process causes the water, which is normally unable to conduct a charge, to become a conductor of electricity. The amount of electricity depends on the type of ions (for example, which salt they came from), the concentration of the ions in solution, and the temperature of the solution.

Fundamentals of Soil Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) AY-238 AY-238 Soils (Fertility)
extension.purdue .edu/extmedia/ay/ay-238.html

(In pertinent part)

Forms of Nutrient Elements in Soils

Elements having an electrical charge are called ions. Positively-charged ions are cations; negatively-charged ones are anions.
The most common soil cations (including their chemical symbol and charge) are: calcium (Ca++), magnesium (Mg++), potassium (K+), ammonium (NH4+), hydrogen (H+) and sodium (Na+). Notice that some cations have more than one positive charge.

Common soil anions (with their symbol and charge) include: chlorine (Cl-), nitrate (NO3-), sulfate (SO4--) and phosphate (PO43-). Note also that anions can have more than one negative charge and may be combinations of elements with oxygen.

--

Defining Cation Exchange Capacity

Cations held on the clay and organic matter particles in soils can be replaced by other cations; thus, they are exchangeable. For instance, potassium can be replaced by cations such as calcium or hydrogen, and vice versa.
The total number of cations a soil can hold--or its total negative charge--is the soil's cation exchange capacity. The higher the CEC, the higher the negative charge and the more cations that can be held.

--

Cation exchange capacity is usually measured in soil testing labs by one of two methods. The direct method is to replace the normal mixture of cations on the exchange sites with a single cation such as ammonium (NH4+), to replace that exchangeable NH4+ with another cation, and then to measure the amount of NH4+ exchanged (which was how much the soil had held).
More commonly. the soil testing labs estimate CEC by summing the calcium, magnesium and potassium measured in the soil testing procedure with an estimate of exchangeable hydrogen obtained from the buffer pH. Generally, CEC values arrived at by this summation method will be slightly lower than those obtained by direct measures.

ROOTS, GROWTH AND NUTRIENT UPTAKE
Dept. of Agronomy publication # AGRY-95-08 (Rev. May-95)

The nutrient uptake process.

Movement of nutrients to roots. For nutrient uptake to occur, the individual nutrient ion most be in position adjacent to the root. This process of positioning occurs through three basic ways.
The root can "bump into" the ion as it grows through the soil. This mechanism is called root interception. Work by Barber estimates that perhaps one percent of the nutrients in a corn plant come from the root interception process.
The soluble fraction of nutrients which are present in soil solution (water) and are not held on the soil fractions flow to the root as water is taken up. This process is called mass flow. Nutrients such as nitrate-N, calcium, and sulfur are normally supplied by mass flow.

Morgan, J. B. & Connolly, E. L. (2013) Plant-Soil Interactions: Nutrient Uptake. Nature Education Knowledge 4(8):2

nature .com/scitable/knowledge/library/plant-soil-interactions-nutrient-uptake-105289112

Plant Acquisition of Nutrients: Symbioses with Soil-based Microorganisms

Nitrogen and phosphorus are among the elements considered most limiting to plant growth and productivity because they are often present in small quantities locally or are present in a form that cannot be used by the plant. As a result, the evolution of many plant species has included the development of mutually beneficial symbiotic relationships with soil-borne microorganisms. In these relationships, both the host plant and the microorganism symbiont derive valuable resources that they need for their own productivity and survival as a result of the association.

Nitrogen Fixation. Despite the fact that nitrogen is the most abundant gaseous element in the atmosphere, plants are unable to utilize the element in this form (N2) and may experience nitrogen deficiency in some soils that have low nitrogen content. Since nitrogen is a primary component of both proteins and nucleic acids, nitrogen deficiency imposes significant limitations to plant productivity. In an agricultural setting, nitrogen deficiency can be combated by the addition of nitrogen-rich fertilizers to increase the availability of nutrients and thereby increase crop yield. However, this can be a dangerous practice since excess nutrients generally end up in ground water, leading to eutrophication and subsequent oxygen deprivation of connected aquatic ecosystems.

Plants are able to directly acquire nitrate and ammonium from the soil. However, when these nitrogen sources are not available, certain species of plants from the family Fabaceae (legumes) initiate symbiotic relationships with a group of nitrogen fixing bacteria called Rhizobia. These interactions are relatively specific and require that the host plant and the microbe recognize each other using chemical signals. The interaction begins when the plant releases compounds called flavanoids into the soil that attract the bacteria to the root (Figure 4). In response, the bacteria release compounds called Nod Factors (NF) that cause local changes in the structure of the root and root hairs. Specifically, the root hair curls sharply to envelop the bacteria in a small pocket. The plant cell wall is broken down and the plant cell membrane invaginates and forms a tunnel called an infection thread that grows to the cells of the root cortex. The bacteria become wrapped in a plant derived membrane as they differentiate into structures called bacteroids. These structures are allowed to enter the cytoplasm of cortical cells where they convert atmospheric nitrogen to ammonia, a form that can be used by the plants. In return, the bacteroids receive photosynthetically derived carbohydrates to use for energy production (reviewed by Limpens & Bisseling, 2003; Ferguson et al. 2010).

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Mycorrhizal interactions with plants.

In addition to symbiotic relationships with bacteria, plants can participate in symbiotic associations with fungal organisms as well. Current estimates of the frequency of plant-mycorrhizal associations suggest that around 80% of all plants establish some type of mycorrhizal symbiosis, and many studies indicate that these relationships are millions of years old (Karandashov & Bucher, 2005; Vance, 2001). There are several classes of mycorrhiza, differing in structural morphology, the method of colonizing plant tissue, and the host plants colonized. However, there are two main classes that are generally regarded as the most common and therefore, the most ecologically significant. The endomycorrhizae are those fungi that establish associations with host plants by penetrating the cell wall of cortical cells in the plant roots. By contrast, ectomycorrizae develop a vast hyphae network between cortical cells but do not actually penetrate the cells.

--

Summary

Although plants are non-motile and often face nutrient shortages in their environment, they utilize a plethora of sophisticated mechanisms in an attempt to acquire sufficient amounts of the macro- and micronutrients required for proper growth, development and reproduction. These mechanisms include changes in the developmental program and root structure to better "mine" the soil for limiting nutrients, induction of high affinity transport systems and the establishment of symbioses and associations that facilitate nutrient uptake. Together, these mechanisms allow plants to maximize their nutrient acquisition abilities while protecting against the accumulation of excess nutrients, which can be toxic to the plant. It is clear that the ability of plants to utilize such mechanisms exerts significant influence over crop yields as well as plant community structure, soil ecology, ecosystem health, and biodiversity.

We hope that this post might be helpful.

Kind regards,
/SRGB/

 

[bobblehead]

Thanks you for the super helpful post SRBG! After I gave it some thought, I suppose there would have to be some sort of exchange of electric charges between the plants and the microbes. I hadn't made that connection yet between the chemistry and biology.

Summary

Although plants are non-motile and often face nutrient shortages in their environment, they utilize a plethora of sophisticated mechanisms in an attempt to acquire sufficient amounts of the macro- and micronutrients required for proper growth, development and reproduction. These mechanisms include changes in the developmental program and root structure to better "mine" the soil for limiting nutrients, induction of high affinity transport systems and the establishment of symbioses and associations that facilitate nutrient uptake. Together, these mechanisms allow plants to maximize their nutrient acquisition abilities while protecting against the accumulation of excess nutrients, which can be toxic to the plant. It is clear that the ability of plants to utilize such mechanisms exerts significant influence over crop yields as well as plant community structure, soil ecology, ecosystem health, and biodiversity.

This pretty much sums up what I'm trying to accomplish. Plants evolved with beneficial microbes. They didn't evolve to be grown in sterile solutions of ions and anions, even though that method works...


on a more philosophical note.. I don't believe in God... but I do believe in electricity. All living organisms exchange electric charges... and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It only changes form. I can live with that.

 

[silver hawaiian]

Thanks you for the super helpful post SRBG! After I gave it some thought, I suppose there would have to be some sort of exchange of electric charges between the plants and the microbes. I hadn't made that connection yet between the chemistry and biology.



This pretty much sums up what I'm trying to accomplish. Plants evolved with beneficial microbes. They didn't evolve to be grown in sterile solutions of ions and anions, even though that method works...


on a more philosophical note.. I don't believe in God... but I do believe in electricity. All living organisms exchange electric charges... and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It only changes form. I can live with that.

 

[otis33]

have you thought about dusting of those blumats and giving them another go in one of your beds?

 

[bobblehead]

I've done more than think about it... They're sitting in a tote in my basement waiting to be soaked for like the past 2 months... Lol. I'm gonna hook them up one of these days. I have floor drains in the event of a runaway! .

 

[silver hawaiian]

I've done more than think about it...

So first I'm like, "Okayyyy.."

They're sitting in a tote in my basement waiting to be soaked for like the past 2 months...

And then I'm like "Wait, how much more than think have you done?"



Aaaaand I'm still at the office.

 

[InjectTruth]

Right on, bobble. Lapides is doing something very similar in big soma style beds with blumats and getting really really impressive results. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=267388

Loved that last post SRGB. I think it should be noted that of the byproducts created by microbial/fungal populations feeding on organic matter, one important one is humic/fulvic acid. These chelating acids allow nutrients to get into the roots over a larger range of ph. The 'overall' soil ph may be seemingly extreme but at the actual root where things are happening, the feedback relationship between root exudites and the microbes is being controlled and buffered at the same time with the humic acid. This is why your humic/compost input is so important with Living Soil/No Till. The presence of humus allows the ph to drift as necessary to accomodate the breakdown of different organic elements by different microbial population while ensuring nutrient availability via chelation. In some senses you are still growing 'hydro' but simply employing the help of microbes to do all the actual work of monitoring and tweaking levels. You just add water! Hence the axiom, "Feed the soil, not the plant".

Furthermore, the plethora of microbial symbiotes all enjoy slightly different conditions. One a slightly higher/lower ph, one more or less tolerant to anaerobic conditions, etc. Some of the different organisms are antagonistic. Trying to reap the benefits of all of them without any one getting out of hand is the goal i.e. a self regulating micro ecosystem.

The Rev from skunk magazine attempts to address this with techniques like 'layers, spikes, zones, etc.' In 'the forest' the soil mix is not homogenous. There are pockets and patches and whole areas that are 'opposite' of other nearby patches in many of their qualities. Providing a non homogenous mix may prove even more beneficial in large volume beds than in small containers like rev does. lava rocks on the bottom for drainage and different mulches are basic examples of how to heterogenize your mix.

I could see bobble laying a coco root mat over the sectioned bed, with a diff soil mix in each section. One representing 'leaf litter', another very similar to the current mix, and a third super dense/humic mix. Let one big ass plant root through a smartie and through the root mat, into the diff blends.

sheesh i must be high, rambling.

PEACE

 

[bobblehead]

So first I'm like, "Okayyyy.."





And then I'm like "Wait, how much more than think have you done?"



Aaaaand I'm still at the office.

lol well I had to think about taking the blumats out of the shed 2 months ago and put them in the basement... So I have put some thought and effort into getting them hooked back up. Why do today what you can put off until tomorrow? lol...

 

[megayields]

I am so lost in this thread.....puff....pufff......

 

[silver hawaiian]

Right on, bobble. Lapides is doing something very similar in big soma style beds with blumats and getting really really impressive results. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=267388

Loved that last post SRGB. I think it should be noted that of the byproducts created by microbial/fungal populations feeding on organic matter, one important one is humic/fulvic acid. These chelating acids allow nutrients to get into the roots over a larger range of ph. The 'overall' soil ph may be seemingly extreme but at the actual root where things are happening, the feedback relationship between root exudites and the microbes is being controlled and buffered at the same time with the humic acid. This is why your humic/compost input is so important with Living Soil/No Till. The presence of humus allows the ph to drift as necessary to accomodate the breakdown of different organic elements by different microbial population while ensuring nutrient availability via chelation.

IT, when you mention that, what do you consider as suitable "input?" Worm poo? A specific humic product? What's ideal?

Does it seem to make a difference, say, if it's something like Ful Power that's watered in, vs. a granular humic concentrate (Fulvix, I think), mixed in with the soil?

In some senses you are still growing 'hydro' but simply employing the help of microbes to do all the actual work of monitoring and tweaking levels.

To me, it's all the difference in the world. I'd rather the microbes work for me than me work for me.

 

[AlterEgo860]

"Fall" colors can be expressed WITHOUT flushing at all....in fact, when a plant is grown properly and allowed to mature fully - it will and does enter into senescence...without any need to deplete the medium or the plant of nutrients...

Having a plant express DEFICIENCY - is NOT the same as having a plant express itself, from age and proper time...

Cold temps bring about coloration as well, without having anything to do with deficiency brought on by flushing or senescence...

My point being, there are MANY different factors that contribute to how cannabis expresses color - and to simply state "a proper flush" is a very incomplete analysis.

"Cellular pH being genetically regulated, each strain has its own unique combination of chlorophyll and carotenoids and potential for anthocyanins production."



dank.Frank

doesn't the cold cause the nute lockout that causes the color change??? so the cold air and flushing are doing the same thing aren't they?

 

[megayields]

so....all I needed to do all these years to flush was open a window?

 

[Mister_D]

Nope. Cold breaks down chlorophyll bring out the purple color (anthocyanin), has nothing to do with nutes being locked out. Though if the roots get too cold they won't be able to absorb nutes, sort of accomplishing the same thing as flushing does, but not really.

 

[SRGB]

AlterEgo860:

doesn't the cold cause the nute lockout that causes the color change??? so the cold air and flushing are doing the same thing aren't they?

Hi, AlterEgo860.

`Cold` could be a subjective variable without a clear definition. If the garden applied a zero diff throught the season, perhaps only a 1-2 degree shift might be registered by a given species. If the diff swung over a wider range over a given season, the species might register the shift as only the ordinary daily temperature swing. It may be that the duration (over, for example the span of several days) of a given temperature shift might provide a more definitive signal to a given cultivar.

We are not certain about the comparison between cold air and `flushing` being equivalent relevant to expression of `colors` by a cultivar.

For example, if both `cold air` and `flushing` were applied at the mid-point of the season, would `colors` appear, or be observed by the gardener, solely based on the adjustment of temperature and nutrient availability?

Perhaps a cultivars` internal `clock` might additionally be a variable, or influence expression of `colors`, i.e.g., the cultivar may be near or at the close of its `annual` season.

The genetics of the cultivar might first be evaluated to determine if in fact environmental modifications can alter the observable expression of the cultivars fruit, flowers or foliage. The genetics may or may not permit the desired expressions.


megayields:

so....all I needed to do all these years to flush was open a window?


Hi, megayields.

We are not certain how `flushing` might be comparable to reduction of ambient air temperature. Although most life forms, in general have some form of measurable response to temperature change.

The observable change might not be expressed as a `color` though, for example, evergreens might endure a wide range of temperatures yet remain `green` to the human observer.

Additionally, plants appear to primarily make their own food energy. `Flushing` might thereby be considered to simply limit some of the compounds (or, elements) available to roots, which the plant may use as `building blocks` during the plants` creation of its own `food energy`. However, plants and trees store a fair amount of some compounds or elements in its tissues; leaching a medium may or may not remove certain compounds or elements from both the given medium and the tissues of the plant or tree. To be accurate, a gardener might take tissue samples from the plant or tree - and medium - before and after `flushing` to determine the efficacy of the `flush`; i.e.g, the volume of water (or other `flushing` agent) required to reduce x compound over y time period. Some compounds may leach out of media or plants simpler than others.

Perhaps additional possible factors related to the present subject matter might be approximate awareness of the given cultivars` annual cycle. The gardener might then be better equipped to employ a temperature modification, and, or, a `flushing` approach to achieve the desired `color` profile, if applicable.

It may be of benefit to thoroughly examine how plants make their own food energy from light, water and C02 - and how `nutrients` are actually (or conceivably, by humans) exchanged, stored and synthesized by plants.

`Nutrient` availability, solubility, pH, and how plants and trees actually covert these elements into usable energy might additionally be beneficial explorations for the gardener.

These might be helpful:

Photosynthesis, or, in general, the ability of plants to make their own food energy:

Plant Growth Factors: Photosynthesis, Respiration, and Transpiration
ext.colostate .edu/mg/gardennotes/141.html

Photosynthesis

A primary difference between plants and animals is the plant’s ability to manufacture its own food.

Science of Life Explorations Plant Anatomy: Photosynthesis
nysipm.cornell .edu/teaching_ipm/sole/plant_sci/photosynthesis.pdf

Photosynthesis is the process in which plants make their own food energy. Plants take in nutrients and water through their roots, and take in carbon dioxide through their leaves. Using the sun’s energy, cells in their leaves create food energy. Leaves release oxygen into the air.

Annual plants, in general:

Annual Plant
princeton .edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Annual_plant.html

An annual plant is a plant that usually germinates, flowers, and dies in a year or season. True annuals will only live longer than a year if they are prevented from setting seed. Some seedless plants can also be considered annuals even though they do not grow a flower.

Pigments in plants, in general:

What pigments are in fruit and flowers? Plants & flowers
webexhibits .org/causesofcolor/7H.html

Major plant pigments and their occurrence

Pigment
Chlorophylls
Common Type
Chlorophyll
Where they are found
Green plants
Examples of typical colors
Green

Pigment
Carotenoids
Common Type
Carotenes and xanthophylls (e.g. astaxanthin)
Where they are found
Bacteria. Green plants (masked by chlorophyll), vegetables like carrots, mangoes and so on. Some birds, fish and crustaceans absorb them through their diets
Examples of typical colors
Oranges, reds, yellows, pinks

Pigment
Flavonoids
Common Type
Anthocyanins, aurones, chalcones, flavonols and proanthocyanidins
Where they are found
Produce many colors in flowers. Common in plants such as berries, eggplant, and citrus fruits. Present in certain teas, wine, and chocolate
Examples of typical colors
Yellow, red, blue, purple

Pigment
Betalains
Common Type
Betacyanins and betaxanthins
Where they are found
Flowers and fungi
Examples of typical colors
Red to violet, also yellow to orange

THE CHEMISTRY OF AUTUMN COLORS
scifun.chem.wisc .edu/chemweek/fallcolr/fallcolr.html

THE CHEMISTRY OF AUTUMN COLORS

Every autumn across the Northern Hemisphere, diminishing daylight hours and falling temperatures induce trees to prepare for winter. In these preparations, they shed billions of tons of leaves. In certain regions, such as our own, the shedding of leaves is preceded by a spectacular color show. Formerly green leaves turn to brilliant shades of yellow, orange, and red. These color changes are the result of transformations in leaf pigments.

The green pigment in leaves is chlorophyll. Chlorophyll absorbs red and blue light from the sunlight that falls on leaves. Therefore, the light reflected by the leaves is diminished in red and blue and appears green. The molecules of chlorophyll are large (C55H70MgN4O6). They are not soluble in the aqueous solution that fills plant cells. Instead, they are attached to the membranes of disc-like structures, called chloroplasts, inside the cells. Chloroplasts are the site of photosynthesis, the process in which light energy is converted to chemical energy. In chloroplasts, the light absorbed by chlorophyll supplies the energy used by plants to transform carbon dioxide and water into oxygen and carbohydrates, which have a general formula of Cx(H2O)y.

..................light....................
x CO2 + y H2O ------------> x O2 + Cx(H2O)y
...............chlorophyll.................


In this endothermic transformation, the energy of the light absorbed by chlorophyll is converted into chemical energy stored in carbohydrates (sugars and starches). This chemical energy drives the biochemical reactions that cause plants to grow, flower, and produce seed.

Further on colors of plants leaves:

Autumn Leaves and Fall Foliage Why Do Leaves Fall Colors Change?
sciencemadesimple. com/leaves.html

Why Leaves Change Color
esf .edu/pubprog/brochure/leaves/leaves.htm

Further on alteration of genes in plants to produce a perennial plant from an annual plant:

Flowering-time genes modulate meristem determinacy and growth form in Arabidopsis thaliana
nature .com/ng/journal/v40/n12/full/ng.253.html

Respectfully,
/SRGB/

 

[megayields]

SGRB ...thank you .....but I was (and frequently am) being facetious.....

 

[Bubba_krch]

Thanks you for the super helpful post SRBG! After I gave it some thought, I suppose there would have to be some sort of exchange of electric charges between the plants and the microbes. I hadn't made that connection yet between the chemistry and biology.



This pretty much sums up what I'm trying to accomplish. Plants evolved with beneficial microbes. They didn't evolve to be grown in sterile solutions of ions and anions, even though that method works...


on a more philosophical note.. I don't believe in God... but I do believe in electricity. All living organisms exchange electric charges... and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It only changes form. I can live with that.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/02/21/bees-can-sense-the-electric-fields-of-flowers/

I'm not sure where I first heard this but I'm sure the concept applies to microbe

 

[high life 45]

..

 

[InjectTruth]

IT, when you mention that, what do you consider as suitable "input?" Worm poo? A specific humic product? What's ideal?

Does it seem to make a difference, say, if it's something like Ful Power that's watered in, vs. a granular humic concentrate (Fulvix, I think), mixed in with the soil?



To me, it's all the difference in the world. I'd rather the microbes work for me than me work for me.

When I say humic input, Im referring to the compost portion of your base mix. Quality meaning good, fine worm castings, or proper compost from quality organic material, over something like say, Scott's Humus and Manure, which is usually sludge of some sort.

I personally have no experience with granular humates added to the mix. I have used fulvic acid in irrigation water but this was before I was recycling/no till, and simply another additive to try to boost growth. Im sure it would be possible, but to me this is sort of going back to hydro. I couldnt even start to imagine how to calculate the amt of fulvic/humic acid to add per watering.

When you think about the physical properties of compost/castings, you are dealing with a humic 'hailstone' of sorts. An everlasting gobstopper of fully decomposed organic matter. Every time you water, some of the surface area on the compost particles throughout the mix dissolves, providing just enough to insure the roots get a hit of chelated nutrients, in between the metered doses pumped out by the microbes. This effect I think would be very difficult to mimic in a soiless mix with a humic/fulvic irrigation additive. Much simpler and seemingly more effective to just make your base mix consist of 1/3 good quailty compost.

I have seen, more than once, someone make an unbalanced water only mix. Heavy on the meals and amendments but not enough compost. These folks are usually making the switch from dro and fear the mix being too dense and thick, or they think the 'nutes' are the more important part.

Plants in these mixes will yellow very early in flowering. A top dressing of compost followed by a watering would green these types of plants up right away. There were plenty of nutes in the soil via amendments, but the plant simply couldnt get them!

Not to mention, the compost portion of a mix heavily influences the physical characteristics of your mix, crumb size, water permeability, water holding capacity, etc. Those low compost mixes were like dust. The peat remained hydrophobic, water ran straight through, and in large part the root mass remained dry.

Theoretically, if those low compost mixes were kept wet enough, the bacteria and fungi in the meals/amendments would have digested some organic matter and formed some humus in situ. However, this process is thermogenic, essentially composting, so depending on the strength of the root system the plant may either thrive or die (why its important to cook your mixes before planting). This is essentially the key to No Till. Constant low level composting occuring in situ to consistently 'add' nutrients and humus to your soil.

 

[bobblehead]

Nope. Cold breaks down chlorophyll bring out the purple color (anthocyanin), has nothing to do with nutes being locked out. Though if the roots get too cold they won't be able to absorb nutes, sort of accomplishing the same thing as flushing does, but not really.

"Temperature affects soil microbes, water availability, and the chemical reactions that occur within plants, all of which influences nutrient uptake."

Teaming With Nutrients; Jeff Lowenfels pg 179

How is nutrients no longer being available not the same thing as flushing? Both ways the plant gets starved.

..

Why thank you! I couldn't agree more, switching up my grow style was the best decision I could have ever made.



Be back tonight with pics! I've been busy.

 

[silver hawaiian]

Lowenfels - dafuq does that schmuck know?!