Inherent Prob. Decarbing 1:1 (THC:CBD) oil

[donb5]

It's necessary to convert (decarboxylate) the acid forms THCA and CBDA, synthesized by the Cannabis plant, to THC and CBD for anti-cancer medicine to be effective or at full power. THC bonds with CB receptors, but it doesn't when in the form of the larger THCA molecules. CBD doesn't bond with CB receptors, but still is at maximum effectiveness when decarbed.

CBDA when cooking requires more time to decarboxylate to CBD than THCA requires to yield THC, both being subject to the same cooking temperature in a vessel. If it were possible to cook them each at a custom temp, THCA would take less heat to decarb to THC than the amount of heat necessary to decarb CBDA to CBD. Since they must both be cooked at the same temperature in the same vessel, THCA is maximally converted to THC while CBDA is still in the midst of decarboxylating.

This disturbs me as it means there will probably be significantly more CBN in the final oil product as a result of degradation of THC, since THC has to be 'overcooked' to decarb all the CBDA. Though CBN is a 5-carbon molecule like other cannabinoids, it's not synthesized in the plant; rather it's the breakdown product of THC. My concern is that CBN is associated with weed that's stale, has a tiring effect (some say produces headaches) and hasn't been studied so well as to cancer cell destruction (apoptosis), stopping angiogenesis (blood vessel formation) in cancer cells, and in turning off a gene that allows metastisis, and/or other cellular mechanisms that fight cancer.

So I am wondering should CBN take over some of the job of the relatively well studied THC? The way around this problem would be to decarb two separate strains, one high in THC and the other high in CBD, then combine the oils later on.

Anyone who is interested in this with something to say relating to cannabinoids, debarboxylating, CBN info, or other semi-intelligent, pls offer ur comments.

 

[The Hatter]

This is not my field of expertise so be warned I am just throwing out a few ideas from the top of my head which may or may not have much merit.

I imagine there might be some resource intensive route involving running it through some sort centrifugal separation/distilation process where you use the difference in mass between the two molecules as the means to separate them but I really don't know enough about the subject to be much help there and I imagine lab centrifuge's are not cheap.

I wonder if a simpler classic distillation might work where you just use the difference in their boiling point as the means to separate them. You could raise the temperature high enough to boil off which ever Cannabinoid has the lower boiling point and then re-condense it in a cooling coil. The problem is the heat needed to do this will cause decarboxylating itself and likely lead to degradation of THC into CBN as well. I suppose you could avoid using excessive heat by using a vacuum to induce boiling at much lower temperatures.

The simplest way to avoid a load of CBN ending up in the final product would of course be to cook the slurry of Cannabiniods just long enough to optimally convert the THCA to THC and then just stop at that point. It wouldn't be optimal for the CBD conversion but you would avoid excessive THC degradation. Unfortunately you probably wouldn't be asking this question if you thought this was an efficient enough solution.

 

[donb5]

Again, feel strongly that the best way to handle the differential decarboxylating problem of producing CBN as an undesired by product of too long heating of the THC oil (too long because one is trying to complete decarbing of the CBD, a too high temp for the THC.

There's more very high CBD strains making the round as cuttings these days. Have heard of some with >99% CBD as a fraction of all cannabinoids. Eventually many of these should be circulating.

best solution to this decarbing dilemma as described above, it is extract from two strains of Cannabis, one high THCA, & the other with high CBDA. That way there's no conflict between maximizing THC or CBD in the same heating pot. If there's decarbing for THC from an individual heat source, then heat should be immediately cut when bubbling CO2 noticably slows down. CBN is decarbed at a higher temp than THC, so it has freedom to heat best in it's own pot for quality and yield. as needed to proceed to the end without degrading THC..

 

[donb5]

Have no edit ability (will at some point I hope), so..

In my post above, at the and of the first paragraph where it has 'CBN' it should've had 'CBD' instead.

Hope the decarb issue was explained clearly enough.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I would suggest first you find out what is the best protocol to decarboxylize CBD and also find the best protocol for THC. Then you would have an understand of any potential problems/conflicts if any. Decarboxylating without oxygen might help?
I know CBN is very slowly formed by stored herbal Cannabis, and CBN also is constantly degrading at the same time after it is formed, so the situation is constaly in flux.
-Sams

 

[donb5]

I would suggest first you find out what is the best protocol to decarboxylize CBD and also find the best protocol for THC. Then you would have an understand of any potential problems/conflicts if any. Decarboxylating without oxygen might help?
I know CBN is very slowly formed by stored herbal Cannabis, and CBN also is constantly degrading at the same time after it is formed, so the situation is constaly in flux.
-Sams

I will look into it some more. I never read what compound CBN degrades to?

 

[herm@n]

CBDA when cooking requires more time to decarboxylate to CBD than THCA requires to yield THC, both being subject to the same cooking temperature in a vessel. If it were possible to cook them each at a custom temp

I would guess it depends on what you are preparing and how you do that.

If it would be an extract like RSO it might be quite simple.

When you use alcohol as a solvent to prepare RSO there is a phase where you evaporate the alcohol.
That evaporation happens at approximately 80 degrees Centigrade.
The temperature of the oil/alcohol mixture won't go any higher because it is the boiling point of the alcohol.
This is also the approximate temperature where CBDa decarboxylates to CBD.
At this temperature THCa is not decarboxylated yet, so you have plenty of time to convert the CBDa only.

The last step in preparing RSO would be to raise the temperature of the oil to approximately 120 degrees Centigrade (I use au-bain-marie in an oil bath here) and wait until the THCa has been converted to THC.

Hope this helps,

 

[danut]

This disturbs me as it means there will probably be significantly more CBN in the final oil product as a result of degradation of THC, since THC has to be 'overcooked' to decarb all the CBDA. ** snip **

I don't believe this currently accepted pathway to CBN .. For instance .. Where does CBNa come from?

Since CBNa exists does it do THC->CBNa? Not likely. THCa->CBNa?

Maaaayyyybe .. But then you add heat to THCa it goes to THC. Not CBNa ... hummm

Who proposed this current theroy? The PHd dude from the U of Miss.

He took drums of freeze dried ground bud (to include seeds and stems) Stuffed it into drums and locked the drums into climate controlled vaults .. and noticed the crap degraded after a while.

He them publishes a paper and says See!! It degrades ..

Meanwhile he notes that extracted resins don't degrade ..

So .. THC degrades into CBN .. sometimes.

 

[danut]

The simplest way to avoid a load of CBN ending up in the final product would of course be to cook the slurry of Cannabiniods just long enough to optimally convert the THCA to THC and then just stop at that point.

And this is interesting .. OK .. I've got my THC and CBD .. so I'm looking for the next one to collect.

I see folks talking about making CBN .. I want to collect a nice example.

Just can't seem to do it .. I cook stuff for DAYS .. little to no CBN ..

 

[herm@n]

I don't believe this currently accepted pathway to CBN .. For instance .. Where does CBNa come from?

The thesis by Arno Hazekamp has a very clear illustration of this mechanism.
I can't find how to upload and attach an image from my computer, so you may refer to the thesis, figure 1.9

 

[m314]

Have there been any studies about CBN's effects on cancer? It wouldn't surprise me if they found it had cancer fighting properties too.

If I had to guess, I'd say decarb for the maximum amount of THC if you want the medical benefits that come with the high. If you want the cancer fighting properties with a lesser psychoactive effect, decarb for the maximum amount of CBD. Just a guess.

I'm growing some Harlequin now, my first 1/1 THC/CBD plant. That's what it's supposed to be, anyway. I'm going to use the buds and trim to make hash oil for vaping. I'll do a second extraction to make oil for tincture, and decarb at an optimal time / temperature for THC. I'll keep the mother plant around in case I need it for medical use in the future.

 

[donb5]

We want to make a Cannabis oil with maximum content of THC and CBD, as those are the best studied and main cannabinoids present in the plant. There is uncertainty as to the best dosing plan, but overdosing has been judged better than underdosing since cannabinoids and Cannabis in general has been shown to have low toxicity, and that the human body can easily metabolise the Cannabis constituents.

To get to maximum THC and CBD in the oil, the THCA and CBDA which the plant itself synthesizes must be heated or decarboxylated to convert the acid forms to THC and CBD. If the extract however comes from a single strain or plant with an approx. 1:1 ratio of THC:CBD, the different temperatures at which decarbox takes place between the two cannabinoids leads to either fully decarbed THC and under-decarbed CBD, or fully decarbed CBD but overcooked THC (degrading some significant amount of the THC to CBN = THC's degradation product).

The only way I know to avoid this is to have two separate strains available for extraction: one dominant in THCA, and the other dominant in CBDA. This way the decarbing of the two acid cannabinoids cannot interfere with each other, being a separate operation for each cannabinoid.

Thank you all, some very thoughtful replies and suggestions, but I've not actually seen any comment going beyond what I've pointed out in the above summary.. more tries are welcome.

So, I'm going to resume my search for someone with a nearly pure CBD clone, one that they are willing to let me have a cutting from so I can multiply the plant and put it to very good use. Obviously getting a high-THC strain is not a challenge. I have discovered many people with cases of cancer who could do well to get hold of a Cannabis oil (or RSO) having max. potential of THC and CBD, at a roughly 1:1 ratio. I also have connection with and have assisted Michigan Cannabiscancerproject who distributes the oil either for a nominal cost-cover charge, or for free if the patient cannot afford the oil. You'll find Michigan Cannabiscancerproject on facebook.

High dosing of the cannaboids, or the whole plant extract containing cannabinoids, has been the practice of those pursuing this way of fighting cancer. The oil must be decarboxylated in order to achieve this. But decarbing the THCA and CBDA from an oil extracted from a single strain with something close to 1:1 ratio of THC:CBD

 

[donb5]

Cannot edit my posts. The last paragraph of my above post is extraneous and not intended to have been included.

 

[Chunkypigs]

It sounds to me like you are over thinking it in the original post. I've decarbed oil from the mix of phenos that came from cannatonic high thc high cbd and the mixed. heat about 240 farenheit until the CO2 bubbles taper off. they all do it the same. scientists have found that different cancer cells respond differently to cbd and thc. most evidence suggests that the cdb is best for spasticity issues and for people who have an issue with altered perceptions.

I've yet to find anyone who wants to use the all cbd pheno and I gave it away for a few years. it's gross stuff and a serious buzz kill if smoked.

good luck with your oil adventures.

 

[donb5]

Chunky - when taken as Cannabis oil I love the effects of a 1:1 CBD:THC mix, almost as much as being all-out high/stoned. I can think very well, am very calm, and noticeably ordered.

I stick by the assertion that when a 1:1 oil is decarboxylated, by the time the CBD's decarbing is complete, there will be a greater amount of CBN in the oil than otherwise would be if the oil didn't contain CBD that needed decarbing. Any decarbing of oil that has mixed principle cannabinoids at say 1:3, 1:2 or 1:1 will have this kind of issue, and it manifests itself as a prolonged time for decarbing the oil at constant temperature, to the point where the CO2 bubbles taper off. I have seen it in preparing my own oil. The THC in the oil is subjected to an excess of either heat or heating time after it is allowed its own complete decarbing. This excess of heat on the THC had to happen so that all the CBD could be completely decarbed. That extra heat is all that's needed to form CBN from THC, though I haven't tried to make an estimate of the amount of CBN that could be expected in the final oil product.

Itmight be seen as a bit of a fine point for those who have made the occasional batch of oil and don't necessarily have a burning desire to know everything they can know about it. For people making a lot of it though, I'd say it's natural for them to want to know what ends up in the oil, as well as the person who takes it feeling the urge to know what it contains. Lab analysis is great and useful but not usually available in non-MMJ states. Anyway I think I could almost guarantee that, by the time medical personnel take up what we call 'oilshining', if they ever do, they will pay attention to things like decarboxylation of mixed cannabinoid profiles and countless other details like it. I only hope oil making isn't displaced by the mere synthesizing of chemicals in a lab..

I never smoked all CBD weed, and can't imagine it except out of curiosity. I really enjoy the 1:1 THC-CBD strains especially as oil. Using two separate THC & CBD strains for extracting and decarbing separately, looks like the only sure way (to me) of ending up with roughly the cannabinoids mix as expected in the oil.

 

[herm@n]

I am wondering: are you basing your assertion om measurement / test results or is it a worry, a mental analysis of the process?

I am asking because I have seen lab test results for RSO made from Cannatonic. Based on the test results I personally would not worry.

I would love to give a link to the test results, but as they are on an other forum I doubt it would be appreciated. When you just google for cannatonic test results I am sure you will find it

 

[herm@n]

Oops! Google for cannatonic extraction results.
I can not edit my previous post, have not reached the magic number yet....

 

[donb5]

CBN has already gotten small mention in cannabinoid research literature as having, or appearing to have, some of the same anti-cancer properties as its more famous cousin cannabinoids THC & CBD. But more highly developed knowledge on the use of a thing usually confers greater value on it. So until a more useful, verifiable knowledge base on CBN comes, I believe most cancer patients would much prefer receiving a medicine that's as tried, true, and known as possible for its effects, esp. for a serious disease like cancer.

I said that to carboxylate an oil accurately and perserve all or most of the target cannabionoids THC & CBD, it would be better to work with separate strains rich in either THC only or CBD only, instead of extracting from strains that are approx 1:1 THC:CBD. I realise that if one is a small grower it is normally a burden to use up grow space to keep a near pure-CBD mother plant & do near pure CBD grows that the ordinary customers won't buy. It may be that those who dedicate growing space for CBD rich medicine will mainly be those with the inclination to do it, able to sacrifice time and earning potential. In many parts of the country I've heard about, RSO doesn't command more than about 1/2 or 1/3 the street value of the Cannabis needed to produce it, and here where I live (a non-MMJ state) there is no RSO 'market' at all to speak of.

Beside simply wishing to be a good & civic-minded person, I involved myself with RSO because I still don't get over the novelty of the 'bad weed' curing dreaded diseases, and how it can send the too tight-laced into a tizzy. To me the whole thing is the height of irony and I love that.

 

[oldchuck]

I think the separate strain approach is the best way to go. I think that is how GW formulates Sativex.

I'm wondering if a hemp variety of Cannabis is the best place to look for a high CBD/low THC grow. I'm wondering where I can get some data on CBD concentrations in this or that type of hemp. You see numbers on hemp THC all over because they have to stay under the legal limits. Don't they test for CBD too?

 

[herm@n]

According to Wikipedia hemp in the EU has a CBD percentage of between 1% and 5%.
That corresponds with my own experience, as we speak (eh... write) I am extracting RSO from industrial hemp, just to have some CBD to add to a high THC / almost zero CBD batch of oil. The last time I extracted from industrial hemp the yield was 2,5%.