Inherent Prob. Decarbing 1:1 (THC:CBD) oil

[donb5]

I wouldn't rely on knowing just the right amount of time to decarbox plant material. When decarboxylating oil in the pan, it's easy to see when it should be taken off the heat by noting the tapering of the small CO2 bubbles. No need then to guess decarb time.

 

[donb5]

CBDA is slightly more difficult. Not much.

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Hey Joe, thanks for that chart! I was looking for something similar!

You're right, it doesn't look like much of a dramatic difference between THCA decarbox time and CBDA decarbox time given equal heat input. But looking at the chart carefully I can see that it could fit roughly with my experience, that is when I watched the bubbles go double time the for 1:1 oil decarbox, compared to THC decarbox bubble time.

On the chart, note for CBDA after 2 hrs at 105 C; CBD = 93% of (CBD + CBDA). For THCA after only 1 hr at 105 C; THC = 93% of (THC+THCA). So the chart shows double the time at this chart point for CBDA to lose the same large proportion (93%) of its carboxyl groups as THCA loses in just an hour. I 'm pretty sure the extra hour of heating fully decarboxed THC is sufficient to form a quanity of Cannabinol (CBN), it's just a matter how much.

 

[donb5]

I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a better idea to decarb the weed before extraction drying out the water at the same time.

The buds I extract, I try to have as dry like the desert. An important point in RSO extraction is to use only very dry plant material, since the more water present in an extraction the more pulling power for nasty substances like chlorophyll.

 

[oldchuck]

Yeah, I get that. So heat it up a bit in the oven but not too much then extract. That's dehydrate and decarb all in one step.

 

[donb5]

oldchuck - Seems like it would be fine to do some decarbox in the oven on the dry or even kinda wet buds - that should only shorten the time till the final decarbox bubbles taper off. So the decarbox state of the plant material before extraction is not important, except that there should be enough THCA left before extracting so that decarbox won't finish in the boil off before the solvent is all boiled away. Otherwise the oil could overheat (beyond decarboxylation) just while getting rid of all the solvent.

I think the exactness of the decarbox is very important; undecarboxylated compound doesn't have the anti-cancer activity that decarboxylated compound has. It looks like Skunk Pharm the Cannabis chemists and extract artists @ [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/ [/FONT]also agree that precision is important. They point out that THCA & CBDA can't even pass the blood-brain barrier. But also these molecules are also too large to bond with C1 or C2 receptors, the proteins which begin the signalling for the anti-cancer steps taken by the body.

 

[oldchuck]

I think your focus on precision is great, donb. I'm glad somebody, hopefully a lot of somebodies, are doing that. I don't have a chemistry lab or a capacity to do very precise job of it so it's fly by the seat of my pants.

 

[herm@n]

except that there should be enough THCA left before extracting so that decarbox won't finish in the boil off before the solvent is all boiled away. Otherwise the oil could overheat (beyond decarboxylation) just while getting rid of all the solvent.

I doubt this.
As long as there is solvent in the mix the temperature in the vessel will be at or below the boiling point of the solvent.
I just checked this (I am preparing a batch of RSO as I write this).
The temp of the oil bath is 115 degrees C, the temperature in the vessel is slightly above 70 degrees C.
I had the temperature of the oil bath set to 122 degrees C without the vessel. As soon as the vessel is "au bain marie" it draws energy from the oil bath and thus the temperature of the bath drops.
When the solvent (I am using ethanol) is evaporated the temperature of the mix in the vessel will rise to the boiling point of water (the ethanol is 95%, the balance being water). Only when the water is boiled off the temperature of the RSO in the vessel will go up to the temperature of the oil bath.

 

[donb5]

"Only when the water is boiled off the temperature of the RSO in the vessel will go up to the temperature of the oil bath."

- I agree, but a small enough amount of water in the oil, I don't think, is going to be enough to keep the temp down effectively. How small we're talking about I don't know; do you?

 

[herm@n]

How small we're talking about I don't know; do you?

I don't know. I think the best way to find out is through measurement.
Bit it reminds me how Rick Simpson adds 5 to 10 drops of water in his naphtha- or ether-based oils during the final boiling-off.
10 Drops is not much compared to the puddles he produces, yet it is enough to raise the boiling temperature.

 

[donb5]

I doubt this.
As long as there is solvent in the mix the temperature in the vessel will be at or below the boiling point of the solvent.
I just checked this (I am preparing a batch of RSO as I write this).
The temp of the oil bath is 115 degrees C, the temperature in the vessel is slightly above 70 degrees C.
I had the temperature of the oil bath set to 122 degrees C without the vessel. As soon as the vessel is "au bain marie" it draws energy from the oil bath and thus the temperature of the bath drops.
When the solvent (I am using ethanol) is evaporated the temperature of the mix in the vessel will rise to the boiling point of water (the ethanol is 95%, the balance being water). Only when the water is boiled off the temperature of the RSO in the vessel will go up to the temperature of the oil bath.

Thanks for the detailed measurements. Very interesting.

 

[CBD Mom]

I have struggled with this as well. I am making CBD oil for my daughter and I do want it to have reduced THC but I want it to have just a little. She was prescribed cannabis for spasticity (which is why we like some THC in her mix) but also uses it for seizures (which is why we need the CBDs). I have been essentially mixing two meds together to make this work. I decarb my high CBD plants at 340 for two hours (yes, I know, it sounds scary but it works-stinks-but works) and I decarb my THC plants at a lower temp for like 20-30 minutes. I then grind them and mix them together to make whatever I am making. I used too much of the THC plant last time so it ended up 3:2 instead of 3:1 (CBD: THC) but I am learning.

The way that I make the CBD oil is listed on my blog: http://mydaughterscannabis.blogspot.com/2014/04/how-to-make-coconut-oil-for-cbds.html

And at the bottom, I explained how I made the last batch (with both CBD and THC) and I have my test results linked. I admit I am still learning but only been at this about a year and I was quite happy with how much of my plant was activated for my first time testing.

It's necessary to convert (decarboxylate) the acid forms THCA and CBDA, synthesized by the Cannabis plant, to THC and CBD for anti-cancer medicine to be effective or at full power. THC bonds with CB receptors, but it doesn't when in the form of the larger THCA molecules. CBD doesn't bond with CB receptors, but still is at maximum effectiveness when decarbed.

CBDA when cooking requires more time to decarboxylate to CBD than THCA requires to yield THC, both being subject to the same cooking temperature in a vessel. If it were possible to cook them each at a custom temp, THCA would take less heat to decarb to THC than the amount of heat necessary to decarb CBDA to CBD. Since they must both be cooked at the same temperature in the same vessel, THCA is maximally converted to THC while CBDA is still in the midst of decarboxylating.

This disturbs me as it means there will probably be significantly more CBN in the final oil product as a result of degradation of THC, since THC has to be 'overcooked' to decarb all the CBDA. Though CBN is a 5-carbon molecule like other cannabinoids, it's not synthesized in the plant; rather it's the breakdown product of THC. My concern is that CBN is associated with weed that's stale, has a tiring effect (some say produces headaches) and hasn't been studied so well as to cancer cell destruction (apoptosis), stopping angiogenesis (blood vessel formation) in cancer cells, and in turning off a gene that allows metastisis, and/or other cellular mechanisms that fight cancer.

So I am wondering should CBN take over some of the job of the relatively well studied THC? The way around this problem would be to decarb two separate strains, one high in THC and the other high in CBD, then combine the oils later on.

Anyone who is interested in this with something to say relating to cannabinoids, debarboxylating, CBN info, or other semi-intelligent, pls offer ur comments.

 

[donb5]

Since I made my the last post on this thread, I have done several more extractions of mixed THC/CBD cannabis oils. What I have found is this. This gap or problem re: the time and/or temperature in which THC vs. CBD decarboxylates doesn't appear that much a problem to me now. I find especially that if the decarb is done at somewhat higher temps of around 240F - 290Fmax (that is, temps reached by the oil itself after evaporation of the solvents) then there is less of an apparent gap. Decarbing at higher temps also should yield higher cannabinoid peak(s). From now on I am decarbing a mixed CBD/THC oil at a temp of at least 240-250F up to as high as 290 F (but no higher than that to ensure there can be no excessive destruction of THC or CBD).

The higher the temp. of decarb the more THC and/or CBD can be preserved (the higher the THC peak on Jump 13's decarbyloxation chart) before it is able to convert to a degratdation product CBN. I'm not sure what heat degradation product may come from CBD. For THC, the peak on the decarboxylation chart happens at the temperature point where the rate of degradation to CBN starts to exceed the addition of new THC from decarbing. Hope this is clear to those who are interested in this. Please consult Skunk Pharm's decarboxylation Section (easily searchable from Google) for more details on what I'm referring to.

To sum up, I no longer think decarbing mixed THC/CBD Cannabis oil is a serious problem, but the gap between temps & times of decarbing each cannabinoid from the same oil manifests itself more when the decarb temps lower, say, around the temp. water boils (212F). I now always decarb at a temp. range of between 240F - 290F(max) and the 'inherent problem' I referred earlier in this thread will hardly be noticed.

 

[donb5]

I decarb my high CBD plants at 340 for two hours (yes, I know, it sounds scary but it works-stinks-but works) and I decarb my THC plants at a lower temp for like 20-30 minutes.

The way that I make the CBD oil is listed on my blog: http://mydaughterscannabis.blogspot.com/2014/04/how-to-make-coconut-oil-for-cbds.html

And at the bottom, I explained how I made the last batch (with both CBD and THC) and I have my test results linked. I admit I am still learning but only been at this about a year and I was quite happy with how much of my plant was activated for my first time testing.

Congratuations making your daughter's medicine. I think that's really great.

So you're decarbing the plant material not the extracted oil? Of course that accomplishes the task of decarboxylation, but I doubt with the level of precision/control over peak concentration, and concentration of CBN, in the final product. That's because when decarbing the oil one can directly see the CO2 itself separating from the acid THC/CBD and coming off the top of the oil in the pan. I haven't done it by oven-heating the plant material before; this may be a perfectly valid way to do it, especially if past experience has given you a handle on acceptable results. I'm surprised at the high temps for CBD when that exceeds the melting point (or boiling point) of the substance in some published lists of bps).

I need to look at your blog before commenting more, maybe I miss something.

 

[trichrider]

http://basementshaman.com/eadi.html

 

[Betterhaff]

I wonder if anybody has made 1:1 oil with a proven method (meaning a process that has proven successful with other oils) and had it tested. Ideally it would be good to test the flowers and the oil to see the comparable profiles.

 

[sourpuss]

Really this gives us a way to is9late either thc or cbd.

Which do you need? Cancer is stopped by thc or cbd?

 

[donb5]

Both THC and CBD have anti-cancer properties in vivo and in vitro (animal and test tube studies- see Pub Med search on Cannabis and cannabinoids; Google). Some suggest using the two main cannabinoids THC and CBD together will likely to result in a synergism that boosts anti-cancer properties and/or other anti-human disease properties. Though there are almost no "proper" human trials designed to use cannabinoids against human disease, this hasn't stopped the accumulation on the internet of reported successes using Cannabis oil or cannabinoids against various kinds of cancers, including late stage ones. Added to the building up of anecdotal cases of cancer success has been a set of apparent successes against severe treatment-resistent childhood forms of epilepsy. Sanja Gupta, MD of CNN's Medical Journalism dept. has been following the issues of Cannabis and epilepsy in his recent "Weed" series. Gupta has yet to cover any specific claims of success in the primary treatment of cancer. Coverage by Gupta of anti-cancer claims for Cannabis might carry much more controversy then childhood epilepsy, since the epilepsy, in contrast to cancer, is acknowledged as lacking in treatment options.

 

[JointOperation]

Congratuations making your daughter's medicine. I think that's really great.

So you're decarbing the plant material not the extracted oil? Of course that accomplishes the task of decarboxylation, but I doubt with the level of precision/control over peak concentration, and concentration of CBN, in the final product. That's because when decarbing the oil one can directly see the CO2 itself separating from the acid THC/CBD and coming off the top of the oil in the pan. I haven't done it by oven-heating the plant material before; this may be a perfectly valid way to do it, especially if past experience has given you a handle on acceptable results. I'm surprised at the high temps for CBD when that exceeds the melting point (or boiling point) of the substance in some published lists of bps).

I need to look at your blog before commenting more, maybe I miss something.

you end up being able to get all the medicine if u decarb it before extracting .. atleast thats what ive been reading.

 

[donb5]

you end up being able to get all the medicine if u decarb it before extracting .. atleast thats what ive been reading.

That seems doubtful, since dry heating of plant matter doesn't allow direct observation, in fact not even indirect observation, of how much carbon dioxide is coming out of the extract at any given time; one must guess the best time to remove the plant material from the heat, or at best set a limit for heating based on experience, which is subject to heterogeneity of different successive samples. What one would have is less useful info at decision time of the decarb status. Although dry heating coupled with subsequent lab analysis, honed over time, might prove an adequate way of getting to a somewhat accurate decarb.

But please provide a link, JO, if possible, so I can see what you're talking about. Maybe there's that thing I don't know yet or didn't think of.

donb

 

[donb5]

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