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Primary aggregates:
Compost-$18 1/3 cubic yard or 9 cu ft (certified organic)...$2/cu ft
Bark-$6/4 cu ft...$1.50/cu ft
Perlite-$16/4 cu ft...$4/cu ft
Earthworm Castings-free (I can buy 40# bag for $30...equal to 2 cu ft?) $20/cu ft if purchased--but free to me
Vermiculite-$20/4 cu ft....$5/cu ft
ProMix BX-$29/bale (3.8 cu ft compressed--7.5 or so cu ft fluffed)...$4/cu ft
Calcined clay-$5/25# bag--1.5 cu ft?...$4/cu ft
Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE) $40/50# bag (6 cu ft?)...$7/cu ft
Fertility and Liming agents usually are $1-2 per pound as I only purchase 50# bags.
The amount of each aggregate varies between 4.5% to 18.2%...nothing expensive here--and everything is fresh and new, with a $4 average/cu ft.
We can talk about quality all day long...but in So Cal marketplace is where I play, and my packs move at $3500-3700. Since price is a reflection of quality...I would say my products are "top shelf".
As to the comment that it ROLS requires no extra time or space/footprint, then what do you call the space to "recycle" and the time it takes rid the rootball? My rootballs are huge and compacted and it takes 2 seconds to dump the contents of harvested container in the trash....what, you guys figure 5-10 minutes for each harvested container? What about the mess...and the area to do this? What is your time worth? $5/hour? $25? $50?
What about consistency of fertility/ph? After organic liming agents are activated, it takes about a 5-7 days before the soil ph is fully stabilized. I transplant my plants in a stabilized medium.
If aggregates (like bark and compost) are not fully decomposed, the soil will need to "cook" (consume nitrogen) for a few days--or maybe a few weeks...depending on how much is "green" (not decomposed).
Same cooking game for those using slow decomposing "kelp meal"--at 28 days only 14% of it is decomposed (plant available)...hence why many use seaweed extract--at 28 days 38% of it is "plant available"...hmmm, 14% vs 38%...24 basis points advantage over the meal variety...for the same fertility...extract has more bang for the buck.
Cheers!
BTW...the original question is "why not ROLS"...and these are my reasons: Cost and quality. Not saying anyone is right...or wrong, just that I like my high tickets and for my low investment. These things I know--changing a game to save potentially a dollar or so per cu ft...without certainty of maintaining the same quality (outcome) is a chance I prefer not to risk. Cuz after all, potentially saving 1 dollar per cu ft equates to almost nothing per 5 gallon container. Goal is to NOT HAVE THE CHEAPEST grow medium...rather the goal is to "grow quality/quantity with the least risk/cost".
Compost-$18 1/3 cubic yard or 9 cu ft (certified organic)...$2/cu ft
Bark-$6/4 cu ft...$1.50/cu ft
Perlite-$16/4 cu ft...$4/cu ft
Earthworm Castings-free (I can buy 40# bag for $30...equal to 2 cu ft?) $20/cu ft if purchased--but free to me
Vermiculite-$20/4 cu ft....$5/cu ft
ProMix BX-$29/bale (3.8 cu ft compressed--7.5 or so cu ft fluffed)...$4/cu ft
Calcined clay-$5/25# bag--1.5 cu ft?...$4/cu ft
Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE) $40/50# bag (6 cu ft?)...$7/cu ft
Fertility and Liming agents usually are $1-2 per pound as I only purchase 50# bags.
The amount of each aggregate varies between 4.5% to 18.2%...nothing expensive here--and everything is fresh and new, with a $4 average/cu ft.
We can talk about quality all day long...but in So Cal marketplace is where I play, and my packs move at $3500-3700. Since price is a reflection of quality...I would say my products are "top shelf".
As to the comment that it ROLS requires no extra time or space/footprint, then what do you call the space to "recycle" and the time it takes rid the rootball? My rootballs are huge and compacted and it takes 2 seconds to dump the contents of harvested container in the trash....what, you guys figure 5-10 minutes for each harvested container? What about the mess...and the area to do this? What is your time worth? $5/hour? $25? $50?
What about consistency of fertility/ph? After organic liming agents are activated, it takes about a 5-7 days before the soil ph is fully stabilized. I transplant my plants in a stabilized medium.
If aggregates (like bark and compost) are not fully decomposed, the soil will need to "cook" (consume nitrogen) for a few days--or maybe a few weeks...depending on how much is "green" (not decomposed).
Same cooking game for those using slow decomposing "kelp meal"--at 28 days only 14% of it is decomposed (plant available)...hence why many use seaweed extract--at 28 days 38% of it is "plant available"...hmmm, 14% vs 38%...24 basis points advantage over the meal variety...for the same fertility...extract has more bang for the buck.
Cheers!
BTW...the original question is "why not ROLS"...and these are my reasons: Cost and quality. Not saying anyone is right...or wrong, just that I like my high tickets and for my low investment. These things I know--changing a game to save potentially a dollar or so per cu ft...without certainty of maintaining the same quality (outcome) is a chance I prefer not to risk. Cuz after all, potentially saving 1 dollar per cu ft equates to almost nothing per 5 gallon container. Goal is to NOT HAVE THE CHEAPEST grow medium...rather the goal is to "grow quality/quantity with the least risk/cost".
SpicySativa
Member
I don't remove roots when I recycle. The worms and soil microbes take care of that.
Recycling for me is as easy as:
1) Rip the stalk out at the base and toss it in the worm bin. A small hand trowel makes quick work of this.
2) Drop the rootballs into a bin.
3) Add some worm castings and a few ammendments. Sometimes I add a little extra peat or pumice/perlite if the texture doesn't seem quite right.
4) Mix thoroughly.
5) Wet down and cover.
About 2 months later when I'm ready to transplant the next batch, my soil is ready to go with no old roots to be found.
Recycling for me is as easy as:
1) Rip the stalk out at the base and toss it in the worm bin. A small hand trowel makes quick work of this.
2) Drop the rootballs into a bin.
3) Add some worm castings and a few ammendments. Sometimes I add a little extra peat or pumice/perlite if the texture doesn't seem quite right.
4) Mix thoroughly.
5) Wet down and cover.
About 2 months later when I'm ready to transplant the next batch, my soil is ready to go with no old roots to be found.
Understand Spicy, now I really know why do what I do...and why others do what they do. I am more scientific (fertility measured to the gram for each container) and like getting consistent results. Since most "organic ferts" are 75% decomposed after 75 days--some 100%; my expired soil has very little fertility remaining--especially for a second run. My grow medium is super efficient--both in air/water porosity #s as well as nutrient/fertility capabilities (anion cation exchange)...this boost in soil efficiency requires me to use 33% less fertility without sacrifice of quality/quantity. Will ROLS allow me this same privilege?
I don't have space (opportunity co$t) for containers to sit (cooking/decomposing) 2 months or longer...maybe 4 months for me, as my root balls are massive and have been known to protrude through bottom drain holes. I run production styled operation that is "clean room" clean and have minimum surplus of space. Me having 2-4 months of dirty containers (with roots) would "unclean" my clean room philosophy...for a few bucks savings? Go for it...but seems like a lot of drama for little bang.
I say TOE-matoe...you say TAH-mato. Cheers!
EDIT--I recall reading a federal case where "rootballs" were added to "live plants" in determining the number of plants on premises. It helped them jack up the charges to the maximum years per the minimum sentencing guidelines. The prosecutor's argument was--they knew he had been operating for 2 years, and charged him for 2 years of production, and the plant count was based on number of live plants plus the number of root balls found in his possession--times six harvest per year--times 2 years.
So....if applied those facts to my current situation--having 4 months of rootballs "cooking" in rootballs would be a gift to the prosecutor. Hmmm, zero rootballs, or 4 months of root balls (difference would be huge in my case).
I don't have space (opportunity co$t) for containers to sit (cooking/decomposing) 2 months or longer...maybe 4 months for me, as my root balls are massive and have been known to protrude through bottom drain holes. I run production styled operation that is "clean room" clean and have minimum surplus of space. Me having 2-4 months of dirty containers (with roots) would "unclean" my clean room philosophy...for a few bucks savings? Go for it...but seems like a lot of drama for little bang.
I say TOE-matoe...you say TAH-mato. Cheers!
EDIT--I recall reading a federal case where "rootballs" were added to "live plants" in determining the number of plants on premises. It helped them jack up the charges to the maximum years per the minimum sentencing guidelines. The prosecutor's argument was--they knew he had been operating for 2 years, and charged him for 2 years of production, and the plant count was based on number of live plants plus the number of root balls found in his possession--times six harvest per year--times 2 years.
So....if applied those facts to my current situation--having 4 months of rootballs "cooking" in rootballs would be a gift to the prosecutor. Hmmm, zero rootballs, or 4 months of root balls (difference would be huge in my case).
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I don't know what science you use but I ran much more scientifically than anyone I've even read about. Soil and composts, ammendments were all tested and examined microscopically. My problems lessened considerably by inviting in the dirt and bugs. Where does the 75% thing come from and what does it mean?
92 elements? thats dangerously close to sea salt talk there fella!
SpicySativa
Member
Haha! No "sea minerals" in my soil, but I do add kelp meal. Mostly I just think its near that kelp is able to accumulate such a wide variety of elements. Plants seem to dig it.
SpicySativa
Member
Eclipse - I don't just toss things in willy nilly, I try to get a read for what my plants were lacking at the end of a grow, and add accordingly. I can't claim to be an expert, but I do a shitload of reading (mostly NOT on cannabis forums). I recently sent off a sample of my soil to Logan Labs, and I look forward to comparing the quantitative results to my qualitative observations.
As far as root balls being called plants, my "root balls" aren't sitting around in pots. The soil must be kept moist, so it gets reammended, mixed, and moistened as soon as I harvest. Soil just sits in two 30-gal trash cans in my basement; pretty low impact. Mixing is done by hand in +/- 15 gallon batches in a big Rubbermaid tub. It's manual labor, but I enjoy it. Nothin like the fresh, clean smell of healthy soil.
As far as root balls being called plants, my "root balls" aren't sitting around in pots. The soil must be kept moist, so it gets reammended, mixed, and moistened as soon as I harvest. Soil just sits in two 30-gal trash cans in my basement; pretty low impact. Mixing is done by hand in +/- 15 gallon batches in a big Rubbermaid tub. It's manual labor, but I enjoy it. Nothin like the fresh, clean smell of healthy soil.
From the great guys at Oregon State University. Source: http://smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/sites/default/files/Sullivan_et_al_2010_World_Congress_Soil_Science.pdf
Organic Fertilizer Calculator
This Calculator arose as a byproduct of a larger project that evaluated simulation modelling to predict N
availability (Gale et al., 2006). Growers and grower advisors wanted a tool that was simpler to use than a
simulation model and allowed economic comparison of fertilizers. We decided to look at our existing data
with a grower-friendly Calculator in mind.
We found reasonable linear correlation between organic fertilizer total N% (dry weight basis) and PAN
measured in field trials (Figure 2) and in laboratory incubations. We found similar PAN for the same
organic material applied to a sandy loam and a silt loam soil. PAN from stable composts in the Gale et al.
(2006) dataset was not related to compost total N percentage, so the equation given in the Organic Fertilizer
Calculator is to be used only for fresh organic materials. We found that dry-stacked poultry litter (sold as
“compost”) had decomposition in soil and %PAN similar to fresh organic materials (Gale et al., 2006).
Limitations to the Calculator are described in the Extension publication (Andrews and Foster, 2007). The
Calculator does not account for ammonia that may be lost at application. It also assumes that PAN is not lost
via leaching or denitrification. Under our summer Mediterranean climate with crops grown under sprinkler
irrigation, the assumption of insignificant PAN loss under good management has been supported by field
PAN being equivalent to lab incubation PAN in our field trials (Gale et al., 2006).
We lacked data on higher N analysis specialty products available for use in USDA Certified Organic
production. To gain additional data on high N specialty products, we performed a 28-d laboratory incubation
using fertilizers offered for sale to organic farmers in Portland, Oregon including: seed meals, fish
byproducts, and animal byproducts (Table 1). Most of the specialty products decomposed rapidly. Most
specialty products with greater than 6% total N released 60+% PAN in 28 d. Decomposition (%) for
specialty products with 6+% total N was similar to PAN (%). Plant-available N (%) was similar for most
fertilizers with total N percentage > 6%. Experimental data for PAN release from high N concentration
organic fertilizers (>6% total N) typically ranged from 60 to near 100% (Figure 2 and unpublished data).
Therefore, the Calculator estimate of 75% PAN for 70 d after application is on the conservative side.
Table 1 contains the data for various organic specialty products, check out the 28 day PAN rates, and 7 and 28 day decomposition rates.
BTW...when I say "scientific"--I am referring to the common definition: "based on or characterized by the methods and principles of science." My methods are not "artistic" or "whimsical"--like "a dash of this and handful of that cuz I think it needed it". Rather the ingredient ratio and amounts required are based on selecting the final "formula" as a result of numerous experiments and changes to the recipe were from lab test feedback--not "hmm, lets try some of this and see what happens".
That kind of "scientific"...by no means, am I suggesting I am a scientist with alphabet soup behind my name...that sir, is reserved for people with talent and brains like yours!
Rather I applied my professional experience/education to the task at hand and then learn/verify information from professionals that are experts in their field. Example, years ago when I had Root Aphids and the professional I spoke to was the infamous entomologist Ray Cloyd; he wrote more papers on Root Aphids than anyone else. The technique I applied was based on our conversations (scientific)...not from ICMag forums (stoner logic).
Hope that helps!
Cheers!
BTW...yes I use all natural forming elements (around 90 or so) including gold, silver and titanium (all girls like bling...right?)...and another 7-12 exotic ones. Yes it is Sea Minerals, approved for Organic Growing...with OMRI label, called Sea-90. Everything eventually, flows to the sea...and becomes water soluble.
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@VG
right on,i just wanted to emphasis that no tinkering of specific elements were increased or depleted threw out the grow of many varieties of cannabis & they seem to fade out naturally in a fully amended recycled organic living soil or what ever you call it.
but yes, outdoors
this is not in any way me trying to claim that nitrogen or other methods, cant be used to trigger or delay senescence
Dark, are you growing outside in containers or garden beds or both?
I do not understand what difference (outside of light quality and 'perhaps' temperature) it makes on senescence (the end of life for a plant) if growing inside or outside. Do you have an inkling of this?
So long as one adjusts the photoperiod and is using living soil growing techniques (or even often not) the plant in accordance with its genetics will enter senescence (unless someone does something stupid like force feed soluble fertilizers).
I have seen this time and again with plants indoor and outdoor. I can guarantee I have grown more plants of more cultivars than many who espouse the N manipulation game taught to us years ago by Ed and gang.
Although, I have never been one to grow in a shoe box or the shoe itself
One can do things to speed up senescence through temperature manipulation but why would one want to if true fruition awaits.
So newbie grower fear not entering the world of natural growing and using the same soil as it gets better with age. Pay no mind to the embittered old school but rather turn to 'yo science bitch' and the frontiers of microbial cycling heirarchies.
SpicySativa
Member
I shoot for making my gardens (ganja and veggie) as "closed loop" as possible. I purchased several boxes of dry ammenents as a starting point...
Something I was thinking about the other day while I was bored... I like to imagine a big box enclosing my ganja garden, veggie garden, and worm bin. Then I start thinking about inputs and outputs of nutrients. The only things which leave this box are edible veggies, smokable buds, and trichomes removed from my trim in the form of bubble hash. All the rest stays in the imaginary box, and therefore the nutrients are not "lost", only recycled. With this in mind, the amount of nutrients that need to be added back into the imaginary box is equivalent to the nutrients contained in the edible veggies, smokable buds, and hashish that I have harvested. Everything else remains in the imaginary box, cycled over and over and over.
Something I was thinking about the other day while I was bored... I like to imagine a big box enclosing my ganja garden, veggie garden, and worm bin. Then I start thinking about inputs and outputs of nutrients. The only things which leave this box are edible veggies, smokable buds, and trichomes removed from my trim in the form of bubble hash. All the rest stays in the imaginary box, and therefore the nutrients are not "lost", only recycled. With this in mind, the amount of nutrients that need to be added back into the imaginary box is equivalent to the nutrients contained in the edible veggies, smokable buds, and hashish that I have harvested. Everything else remains in the imaginary box, cycled over and over and over.
Hey Eclipse; I did not click the link and for a true analysis I should read the paper, however it is noted that they did not include compost and sequestered nutrients (so far as I saw) but I do get your point.
In my thinking I always call compost/vermicompost the organic amendments/fertilizers and I do not use those seed meals, fish byproducts, and animal byproducts except for fish hydrolysate, which I agree is decomposed rapidly (thank goodness). That is why I apply it throughout the growing season.
In my thinking I always call compost/vermicompost the organic amendments/fertilizers and I do not use those seed meals, fish byproducts, and animal byproducts except for fish hydrolysate, which I agree is decomposed rapidly (thank goodness). That is why I apply it throughout the growing season.
Hey MM (or is it Jesse). When you leave the rootball in that requires N to break down right? Do you bump N a little for that fact or does your mix have it covered? And I do get how that keeps the fungal population more intact...just trying to understand the C:N aspect.
I grow outdoors, indoors, in containers and straight in topsoil that I have been building, no-till/swell filled paths, for several plus years. yes building top soil & reaping bountiful harvest, who would of thought?
well, honestly brother M
Ive seen lots of variables change the way plants finish, taste even smell and of course look.
lots of research to support phenotypic plasticity as genomes interact with their environments to cause variations
plants cant obviously move so they adapt to their substrate & environment instead - these adaptations are such that we can see visually different phenotypes expressions though the genotypes may be exactly the same.
specially with polyhybrids & IBL's
my indoor plants perform different then my outdoor, for sure!
even though ther clones from the same strain, certain kush kuts is a great example
indica hybrids usually finish faster as the photoperiod switch is much more accelerated were tropical sats, pretty much never finish at all
I see this same variation when growing in the lower valleys to the higher up elevations in the great outdoors.
but like most soil enthusiast, who don't feed the plant; i strongly feel that soil plays more of a important role,
mixes that look different, feel different, drain different, made of different composts or components, tend to make lots of variables change. its the main and preferred method i find that sweet spot for certain strains & or clone only plants.
agree
growers must first provide a environment to understand certain traits expressed by genetics that were long ago chosen threw natural selection..genetics reign supreme yes but environment is always dominant as sudden changes have kulled 99.9% of all species that ever lived.
some understand to grow a plant, specially indoors
we the grower,must alter the environment to "what we think" the plant needs..hydro and soilless guys play with meters and measure things for the same out come a holistic living soil enthusiast aims for,just go about it differnetly...
heres some neat read for some
http://cannabis-science.com/papers/Chemical Ecology of Cannabis.pdf
I stand corrected folks...sorry, occasionally I make mistakes. The federal case I read was just following the rules...not an ambitious prosecutor.
I direct you to 2010 Federal Sentencing Guidelines--http://www.ussc.gov/Guidelines/2010_guidelines/Manual_HTML/2d1_1.htm
Application Notes, paragraph 17--"For purposes of the guidelines, a "plant" is an organism having leaves and a readily observable root formation (e.g., a marihuana cutting having roots, a rootball, or root hairs is a marihuana plant)."
Hint--search the term "rootball" and you will be directed to that paragraph.
Old ICMag thread on very same topic--https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=194144
I apologize if I rained on anyone's parade using ROLS method...but isn't it better to be safe--than sorry?
Cheers!
I direct you to 2010 Federal Sentencing Guidelines--http://www.ussc.gov/Guidelines/2010_guidelines/Manual_HTML/2d1_1.htm
Application Notes, paragraph 17--"For purposes of the guidelines, a "plant" is an organism having leaves and a readily observable root formation (e.g., a marihuana cutting having roots, a rootball, or root hairs is a marihuana plant)."
Hint--search the term "rootball" and you will be directed to that paragraph.
Old ICMag thread on very same topic--https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=194144
I apologize if I rained on anyone's parade using ROLS method...but isn't it better to be safe--than sorry?
Cheers!
For the record been using subs super soil for years . Like H-G-4-2-0 days lol . Wasn't using right methods . Thanks for the laugh . How hard is it to do subs soil ?Then put it in trashcans for 30 days wet and sealed . Then use it . Don't let my post count fool u . I been around for a long while
Tell me whats wrong with this soil
8 bags of roots organic
2 bags perlite
50lbs EWC
1/5th cup Kelp
4lbs blood meal
4lbs bone meal
1tsp of humic
3/4 cup Epson salt
1/2 cup azomite
5lbs bloom bat guano
1/2 cup lime
Doesn't matter a man named Heath Robinson run circles around any of u dirt ballz FACT! Rep means nothing to me . Thanks for the 0-4 LMAO. Love how u asked a question . Now u and your lil crew over here 0-4 helpful. Is this cuz u didn't get the reply u wanted?
Tell me whats wrong with this soil
8 bags of roots organic
2 bags perlite
50lbs EWC
1/5th cup Kelp
4lbs blood meal
4lbs bone meal
1tsp of humic
3/4 cup Epson salt
1/2 cup azomite
5lbs bloom bat guano
1/2 cup lime
Doesn't matter a man named Heath Robinson run circles around any of u dirt ballz FACT! Rep means nothing to me . Thanks for the 0-4 LMAO. Love how u asked a question . Now u and your lil crew over here 0-4 helpful. Is this cuz u didn't get the reply u wanted?
You mad Bro???
I'm still in the same soil 1 year later. Going to see how it affects the herb.
I did transplant into a larger container after the reveg.
The future is going to be root pruning after every 2nd cycle. And shifting the root mass between 7 and 15 or 30 gallon containers, and cutting back to a 5 gallon mass for a 7 gallon pot.
I had fun growing prohibition style, but now I want to grow indoor trees and bushes.
There are a number of creatures which source the dead roots as food. We sometimes placed composting worms in to 'eat' up the dead roots between crops (most were subsequently trapped out) but you have a point that microorganisms mostly use N as a food source to degrade (eat) carbon. If the [vermi]compost in the original mix has insufficient sequestered N, then it is acquired from surface applied organic matter. This is an ongoing process in a living soil garden as some form of organic matter must be applied at least occasionally.
This can be [vermi]compost or mulch or for more rapid requirements a vermicompost slurry or fish hydrolysate, etc. One could probably use something like Earth Juice if on hand.
We also sometimes used applications of EM (or homemade) fermentations to accelerate degradation of old roots. Some of the microbes in this consortium do not require N as fuel.
A lot depends on what the gardener has on hand. One does not need to go out and spend a lot of money. I've grown extremely satisfactory plants using only soil from outside mixed with aged/composted horse manure.
