Too many S1's

[floralheart]

I'm new, kind of.

Let's take, Connoisseur Genetics Seeds Grandaddy Purple S1 for an example.

How many times can I use a product such as tiresia's mist on the plant before stress becomes an issue that carries through genetics or affects sexual stability in the next generation?

Would using TM on the Connoisseur GDP fems likely produce a next generation full of hermies, misfits and other unknowns?

Basically, how far can you push (how many generations) making beans from forced fems and reverses through products like TM?

Reverses of reverses of reverses, I was always told not to do it.

I'm just getting hip to preserving genetics the more it becomes legal. Never cared about quality or longevity before, as it was always so disposable. Now I can be more attached to the plants because it's state legal.

I'm preserving now with straight breeding practices, but want to see if I'm missing out on a better, faster way of saving genes. I want to refine the stuff I like and save a copy.

 

[roach]

with the right selection you could make s1 s2 s3 s500 without making it a hermie or loose vigor, its only through bad selection and not enough testing of the offspring before deciding which parent to use for the next generation that you end up with hermies or other bad shit, but that can happen with normal male/female breeding too, selection, testing and numbers is the key

 

[Cep]

^^^ Testing is key. Seems like there are a lot of companies out there that get a hold of a clone only, self it, and ship the seeds out without running a bunch themselves. Its lame.

 

[sirius haze]

with the right selection you could make s1 s2 s3 s500 without making it a hermie or loose vigor, its only through bad selection and not enough testing of the offspring before deciding which parent to use for the next generation that you end up with hermies of other bad shit, but that can happen with normal male/female breeding too, selection, testing and numbers is the key

hello roach, really you think you can make as many generation you want and not see some loss in the line ? i always thought that even with right selection onward a few generations of selfing the line automatically loses vigor and recessive deleterious alleles express themself.

 

[HidingInTheHaze]

Cheesehead Auto's used to have The White S2's aka Nitemare Kush and they all looked just as good as The White.

I think it all comes down to the strain or clone mother, some strains seem to produce better results when selfed then others. Look at OG Kush, it self;s beautifully and produces a product much like the clone. I suspect many of the well known OG cuts are just different selfed generations of the original.

 

[VerdantGreen]

if i'm looking for a clone in seed form then give me an S1 any day rather than a cross or bx.

VG

 

[StayBlazinDawg]

I have been wondering the same question I have been winding the CS to 5 different strains and let's see what happens? With the female pollen I'm going to self pollinate those five plants for fem seeds, but what happens if I use the female pollen on other strains? Hmmmm

 

[roach]

some plantspecies are self pollinating, in a large population after some generations all the bad genes will be weeded out naturally, survival of the fittest etc.

if you make a s1, grow one seed and make s2 from that plant, grow one seed and make s3 etc, then you will see lots of bad things happening, unless you are very lucky, but lets say you grow 10000 of the s1´s, select the best 100 and make s2´s on each of them, and then grow each of the 100 different s2´s seperatly to see which of the s1´s that have the best offspring, grow 10000 of the s2´s from the best s1, select the best 100 s2, make s3, rinse and repeat, and you will see a very different result

 

[roach]

I also think it´s a very usefull tool to make s1´s of all your motherplants, that way you will have a better idea what it contains, if all the s1´s go hermie on you then you might not want to use that mother in a cross, or if you have several candidates of a strain to save as mothers, make s1´s of each of them and then see which have the best offspring, and save that mother, chances are it will also be a better breeding candidate than the others

In some cases two specific plants will make for a awesome cross, but those two plants crossed to anything else will be shit, so there can be a case where the plant that didnt do the best in the s1 test will actualy be the best parent in a specific cross with a specific clone

 

[sirius haze]

some plantspecies are self pollinating, in a large population after some generations all the bad genes will be weeded out naturally, survival of the fittest etc.

if you make a s1, grow one seed and make s2 from that plant, grow one seed and make s3 etc, then you will see lots of bad things happening, unless you are very lucky, but lets say you grow 10000 of the s1´s, select the best 100 and make s2´s on each of them, and then grow each of the 100 different s2´s seperatly to see which of the s1´s that have the best offspring, grow 10000 of the s2´s from the best s1, select the best 100 s2, make s3, rinse and repeat, and you will see a very different result

yes but cannabis is a cross pollinated species and even if you grow large number each selfed generation, you cant make as many generation you want like s500 in my opinion, i remembered a thread years ago where sam the skunkman said after s4 all plants show sign of severe inbreeding depression, deleterious alleles causing lost of vigor, sterility....

 

[roach]

yes but cannabis is a cross pollinated species and even if you grow large number each selfed generation, you cant make as many generation you want like s500 in my opinion, i remembered a thread years ago where sam the skunkman said after s4 all plants show sign of severe inbreeding depression, deleterious alleles causing lost of vigor, sterility....

some wild cannabis strains are naturally hermies, and they grow just fine

the big problem as i see it, is that most of the cannabis we grow have been poorly bred over decades without much natural selection, so to weed out all the deleterious alleles from them will also take alot of time and patience, you might even have to grow 1 million of lets say the s4 to find that one plant with the right genetic combination to make a healthy s5 generation

 

[roach]

it also comes down to what you start with, if you start with a known clone, like girl scout cookies or blue dream (just 2 random names i remembered) you might find that none of the s1´s no matter how many you grow will produce a line that grows a healthy s2, s3 etc generation, in that case you would have to go back to the original cross and find a sibling with better genes, or even go back to the parents of the 2 clones, or the parents of the parents...

so yes there is some truth in what sam says, some clones/strains might not be "healthy" enought to be so severely inbred

 

[roach]

okay im stoned and ranting, sorry...

but I just remembered a article I read some years ago, it wasnt about cannabis though, but it talked about when a seedline becomes too homozygous random mutations starts to apear, possibly to try and get some genetic variation back

 

[oceangrownkush]

There is also the method Tom Hill has endorsed for not losing hybrid vigour through repeated selfings; saving different keeper families to draw pollen from when a line of selfing "slows down".. IIRC it went something like this;

>Grow 500 fems from S1
>Select 5 outstanding females
>Self 5 outstanding females
>Grow 500 from each
>Keep the lines which produce the desired result consistently
>Self keeper individuals from the 5 lines
>Rinse, repeat
>If hybrid vigour is lost cross AxB selfed lines together, new combinations are made, vigour is returned.

From what I remember reading anyways.

 

[sirius haze]

some wild cannabis strains are naturally hermies, and they grow just fine

yes thats true but it doesn't make cannabis a self pollinated species, im not aware of landraces uncultivated by man who are 100% hermaphrodite and in the field a lot of pollen is present in the air so the selfing process on a number of generation is not exactly the same as in a controled selfing bred by man. what i try to say is landraces grow just fine and healthy because the genepool is complete in opposition to a selfed bred by man where the number of plants is reduce to one plant who is always from an already bottlenecked genepool.

the big problem as i see it, is that most of the cannabis we grow have been poorly bred over decades without much natural selection, so to weed out all the deleterious alleles from them will also take alot of time and patience, you might even have to grow 1 million of lets say the s4 to find that one plant with the right genetic combination to make a healthy s5 generation

well its always depend from who you buy your seeds but thats true real breeders who make real selection on a decent plants population number and progeny tested parents are very rare since a few decades.
but even with well bred strain you cant really weed out deleterious alleles, if you inbred them too much they will reappear, you can fucked up a line in just one generation of 1:1 mating if you dont mate the right plants together and breeding with only one line is a suicidal plan.

 

[sirius haze]

There is also the method Tom Hill has endorsed for not losing hybrid vigour through repeated selfings; saving different keeper families to draw pollen from when a line of selfing "slows down".. IIRC it went something like this;

>Grow 500 fems from S1
>Select 5 outstanding females
>Self 5 outstanding females
>Grow 500 from each
>Keep the lines which produce the desired result consistently
>Self keeper individuals from the 5 lines
>Rinse, repeat
>If hybrid vigour is lost cross AxB selfed lines together, new combinations are made, vigour is returned.

From what I remember reading anyways.

i will be very carefull breeding with feminised plants unless i find true females who dont reverse under natural stress induced but only with chemical treatment.
selfing is good to see what is hidden behind the dominance and to fix traits quickly in special breeding program but its a tool as dangerous as useful so growers and hobby breeders have to be very carefull in my opinion, we have all see the numerous feminised seeds offering who turn pure consanguineous porn in the growroom under slightly stress...

 

[Pepe le skunk]

In my opinion only self pollenate clone only strains. Square or back breed the other ones.
Most cannot grow 50 let alone 500 plants anywhere without issues.

However, if you are trying to impart a specific trait,(ie. early and short flowering in the example below) try and do it with proven genetics.

Here is an example:
Be careful using the earliest ones because they have been found to not be as potent from what other breeders have shared. Just an option would be to select for potency and bud structure first.(ex Malawi a1 we can call her) Then to square the mother plant(a1) using a different male pollen from an early variety as the first cross. (ex. C99 s1 male)= (a1xc99s1 lets call this hybrid b1) Then back cross to the mother you selected for potency/bud structure 3 times using the best male(fastest) from each new backcross. (ex a1xb1 male) continues like thisa1x male c1)(c1 =a1xb1 or malawi x (malawixc99)) then (a1xd1 or malawi x (malawi x(malawi x c99))= e1. These e1 seeds are the squared malawi that is the fast variety with the potency and bud structure you are looking to produce in seed form. Most plants should contain a pheno that is the good malawi you originally selected but faster because of the c99 influence. If you then cross e1 female back to the original c99 male your hybrid will be very fast, good bud structure and potent. Best way to breed if you ask me. At least the way that makes sense! Hopefully you can follow. There are other ways to breed but get the early trait from something you know is potent already or you might select a more hemp prone early male from the example above of malawi.

 

[The iD]

once you make your initial selfed progeny there is nothing keeping you from running standard monoecious population genetics breeding methods. pop a bunch of S1s and you can reverse a select individual and hit up both itself making S2s along w/ hitting up her sisters, producing fem incross or intercross progeny depending on the parents' homozygosity, along w/ knocking up the original female cultivar, producing fem BCs/BXs, along w/ hitting up cultivars from divergent varieties producing fem hybrids. nothing states that you must only use one individual's pollen and then must only hit that individual w/ it. stay frosty,

-iD

 

[foomar]

This is the essence of TH,s discourse on the subject , well worth reading that locked thread.

Can just manage this based on 30 plants per family in a relatively short timeline in a small room , its the best chance i have of achieving something usefull within these limits.

First, "vigor" mostly revolves around heterozygosity, let's just call that Aa. This is true from everything to growth characteristics, to the adaptive ability of a particular line when we introduce it into new environments. Aa survives better than AA or aa in new environments because Aa is still flexible - able to morph into many things yet, AA and aa are true breeding, and are not flexible anymore until you outcross.

The trick (science really ), is to seek differing genotypes that give rise to the same phenotype (then blend them together) in creating a lasting, flexible line that will readily adapt and thrive in numerous environments.

On to an example:

Self the individual, and grow out at least 100 progeny. Select (self) the top 5% (5 individuals) of those.

So those 5 individuals have now given rise to 5 families, let's call them red, gold, back, green, and blue I guess . Grow out these 5 families in 5 separate plots. These plots should contain at least 30 individuals each (some math folk me included, but not all) feel that 30 is a number where statistics begin to have some real value.

Repeat, that is to say, select (self) the top 5 individuals (phenotypically speaking) from those plots without regard to which plot they came from. The blue family didn't produce anything so it's canned right away. That leaves us with the red, gold, back and green families.

As this goes on (rinse and repeat), yes, we will begin to see which of these families are more homozygous than others (true breeding), by about the S3 this will become readily apparent.

We might decide by the time we get to observing the S3 families that the black and gold families are the most outstanding, nearly 50% of their progenies are very similar to their outstanding (respective) parents. We can also assume that they do not have the exact same genes (differing genotypes), though they are very similar in phenotype.

So we can then back up and cross the black s2 mom, to the gold S2 mom. In doing so, we have restored some vigor (and fitness, adaptive ability etc) to the end product (we'll get some Aa from this cross), while still retaining the outstanding properties of the line.

So that is one way we can go about it, while minimizing the effects of intensive inbreeding. -Tom

 

[Pepe le skunk]

Foomar, Nice addition. Tom knows his stuff. Good breeding info there. Especially if you can grow 150 plant plots at one time. Or over 2-3 years in smaller plots..