Too many S1's

[floralheart]

hello roach, really you think you can make as many generation you want and not see some loss in the line ? i always thought that even with right selection onward a few generations of selfing the line automatically loses vigor and recessive deleterious alleles express themself.

can you minimize that by reversing a variety of 2 or 4 females and use them as studs among 2 or 4 plants being used as females?

or am i in the forest, among the trees?

 

[VerdantGreen]

Why not go further and say a D0 or D1?

not sure what that means.

 

[floralheart]

Cheesehead Auto's used to have The White S2's aka Nitemare Kush and they all looked just as good as The White.

I think it all comes down to the strain or clone mother, some strains seem to produce better results when selfed then others. Look at OG Kush, it self;s beautifully and produces a product much like the clone. I suspect many of the well known OG cuts are just different selfed generations of the original.

FTR, I have grown a selfed OG Kush, and I agree. It was more OG kush than most of the crosses and new OG's. It was the most OG. Besides a compassion club owners OG Purps that was basically a masterpiece keeper cut that they bred and engineered to be a perfect 50/50 representation of 100% killer strains best individual representation. Then crossed the two perfectly. Art and science. That makes me want to take a journey.

 

[floralheart]

Interestingly, I did that with 8 different crosses. Just instinctively. Did the run, preserved the results. 1 gallon containers for prolonged time. Revegging. Cal/Mag stress. N stress. Heat Stress. Flouros and low light prolonged. 1,000 watt prolonged. Still not flowered and tested all the way. Later to be reveged and deselected for final selection. All organic, always.

1 part formula in pro mix. added salts from epsom salt. fish emulsion 1 part in veg and molasses & sea kelp 1 part in bloom. few moving parts. similar to the 5 plant method. should have raised larger families with preservation in mind, but limits are limiting; what can you do?

Having said, all done with straight breeding practices.

Sounds like it's pretty much the same.

If you start with a strain that is heterozygotic for many traits, you WILL lose 'hybrid vigor' on selfed progeny.

But as to your question of future progeny having more and more problems, I want to say this nicely. It shows you have not read or understood Mendellian genetics because you're talking about changing the environment, you left out the selection part, and you're saying the successive generations will have new acquired traits. This is Lamarckism which is essentially incorrect and has been disproven unless you get into nascent sub-field of epigenetics and possible inheritance related to epigenetics.

To be precise, the concern with selfing is in doubling/pairing up a 'bad' gene to put it in simple terms. If that happens to be something related to intersex tendencies (hermie tendencies), then that will show up down the line.

So the 'correct' way to make 'feminized' seedstock is to first stress females in ways that might be expected in your typical growing program. Root constriction might be an idea. Letting plants get droopy before watering (drought) might be another stressor. Re-vegging might be another. Light leak another.

Then you would eliminate the plants that show staminate (male) flowers on these stress tests. Now you have a population of females that don't easily turn male flowers.

Now you CHEMICALLY force male flowers on female plants, and self. This increases the chances you're not passing on 'bad' 'hermie' genes.

It's more work than anyone cares for. The truth of the popularity of female seeds is that the Dutch breeders invested a lot of money into it. The lesser reason has to do with massive fields and it being easier to buy all-female seedstock rather than identifying and killing male plants post-veg.

The Dutch sell newly-outcrossed female-only seeds so that you have to go back to them to buy from them because reversing traditionally was not easy. Now that gardening-purpose STS or colloidal silver are readily available retail, I suspect the retail popularity of female seeds will drop.

Selfing still has great usefulness. But just know if you're starting with a hybrid or poly-hybrid, or for that matter any plant with desirable phenotype (loosely observable trait) which desirability has to do with a heterozygous (non-matching) pair of genes, then you may lose that desirable heterozygousity by selfing.

You also should look up heterosis.

Getting a plant to 'do' itself doesn't mean you get a clone seed. For example you got half your genes from your mum and half from your dad. If you then 'self' yourself, then it is like picking a random half set of your genes, picking another half set of your genes and pairing them up.

Now if you use colchicine or oryzalin (Not recommended), and obtain a double haploid plant, it would be like picking a random unpaired set of your genes and pairing every single gene with itself. Rather than 6-7 generations to achieve near homozygousity (homo = same), you achieve it in 1-2.

Note, with the gametes (sex genes) if you self a male with say ethephon, you should get XX or XY or YY, and there is little info on YY. With selfing a female you get females because XX can only contribute X.

________

Backcrossing is also something you should look at. The uses of it are multi-fold. It could be used to fix recessive traits in one of the parents. Compared to selfing, the benefit of outcrossing then back-crossing could be in maintaining the male half starting from a clone-only.

Some people attempt to outcross to change flowering characteristics of a clone-only (or the successive generations to be more precise), and they might backcross once or a few times to 'regain' some of the original plant's characteristics.

If you got all that, then there are other ways to maintain genetics. First and easiest is pollen. Then beyond that, cloning. Then beyond that micropropagation.

 

[floralheart]

I read everything you wrote, but had a hard time understanding some of it. I already "wasted" my money on the tm. I don't care if my auto seeds I make are all the same, or if I find some super plant that out does the rest. All I want is to make a bunch of fem auto's so I can grow a few hundred outside. I can deal with mutants and lesser quality plants that come from fem s1's due to weird gene recombination. I just wanna know if my plan will work. I'm always up for trial and error. I also plan on having a few packs of "store" bought auto's just in case I have germ problems or what not. Plus I love being able to tell people what they are smoking came from a project that I made happen.

a little on topic, a little off... I'm surprised there isn't more OG autos out there.

 

[TerpeneTom]

What's the conclusion here regarding commercial breeders with the best practices?

Also, if I only posses the ability to grow four plants within one tent (veg and flower), what would be the best strategy for seed purchasing?

Thanks.

 

[TerpeneTom]

.

 

[acridlab]

with everything here being said, I'm still amazed that the top three strains in the nation were ALL accidental crosses

 

[TheRealHash]

Accident or well bred genes that were stumbled upon?

with everything here being said, I'm still amazed that the top three strains in the nation were ALL accidental crosses

"Chemdawg
Breeder: Chemdog

Heritage (no serious source known):
Speculation 1: unknown indica strain (Kush, HP or NL?)
Speculation 2: Nepali x Thai

At a Grateful Dead show at Deer Creek Amphitheatre, joebrand (aka wonkanobe) and pbud met chemdog and sold him an ounce of very high quality pot for $500. Joe and Chemdog exchanged numbers and they later arranged for two ounces to be shipped to chemdog on the east coast. According to chemdog, one ounce was seedless and the other had 13 seeds.

In ’91, chemdog popped the first 4 seeds. From these seeds, one male was found and disposed of (chemdog was young, you can’t blame him). The 3 females were labeled "chemdawg" (now '91 chemdawg), "chemdawg a" (now chemdawg's sister), and "chemdawg b". In 2001, chemdog and his girlfriend attempted to germ 3 more seeds, labeled "c", "d", and "e". the "e" seed never germinated, "c" turned out to be junk (according to chemdog), and chemdawg "d" was the keeper. In 2006, chemdog and joebrand reunited and joe was given 4 of the last 6 beans: Chemdawg phenos 1-4, "4" being the chosen keeper. Joe thought the "4" was the best representation of the original and thus dubbed it the "reunion pheno". Chemdog still has two seeds left in his stash."

 

[Tom Hill]

with everything here being said, I'm still amazed that the top three strains in the nation were ALL accidental crosses

why? this doesn't surprize me at all.. if everybody is running around not knowing wtf they are doing the maths still dictate that one in about 30 of them will be successful..

 

[Tonygreen]

Too many s1's being made and not enough s4's. imho...

 

[Tom Hill]

and not enough shitcanning the crap that comes in between

 

[Tipz]

if i'm looking for a clone in seed form then give me an S1 any day rather than a cross or bx.

Inbreeding depression results in reduction of performance of the plant
which is associated with the increase in homozygosity.
As inbreeding increases, genetic variability among individuals
within the population is reduced, which results in lower genetic
gain from recurrent selection. best tipz

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks for the cut and paste tipz. what is your point? that making an out-cross is going to be better? when actually what you want is a seed that is genetically as close to the clone as possible....

VG

 

[Tipz]

I've already made myself quite clear, as to what I think of your
so called breeding

 

[VerdantGreen]

i'm hoping to eventually learn my trade and graduate to making poly-hybrids when i'm older

 

[Tipz]

Maybe if you whine loud enough, your bud will delete my posts
And ban me like before. I hear Monsanto is looking
for some semi-skilled breeders to destroy a few lines, might want
To give them a shout.

 

[gaiusmarius]

Maybe if you whine loud enough, your bud will delete my posts
And ban me like before. I hear Monsanto is looking
for some semi-skilled breeders to destroy a few lines, might want
To give them a shout.

hm going on a crusade, are we? how about crusading against monsanto instead of another cannabis grower and fellow member of the site? we won't tolerate people going after/trolling other members.

discuss the issue by all means, but no personal vendettas allowed.

 

[Tipz]

hm going on a crusade, are we? how about crusading against monsanto instead of another cannabis grower and fellow member of the site? we won't tolerate people going after/trolling other members.

discuss the issue by all means, but no personal vendettas allowed.

My apologies to any one individual.
With alarming frequency,plant breeding emphasis is shifting
from natural cultivar development to the chemical manipulation
of the genetic basis of plant performance.
The practice itself resembles a parasitic relationship,where the plant
ultimately suffers,whether it be company or individual. I will be more
nondescript. Im sorry.best to all tipz

 

[Tonygreen]

I guess it depends on what you consider suffering, it doesnt get much worse than being chopped down and burned, horrible way to go...