The Myth of Objective Reality

[ezak420]

reality encompasses existence.
existence encompasses reality.

objective reality exists and is observed using the senses and communication techniques. but, your experiences rely on personal circumstances and environmental conditions.

 

[BudToaster]

it seems to me, my experience is subjective.

but there is an external objective thing ... P P Quimby calls it "wisdom". He says quite a bit about wisdom. i'm spending the last third of my life studying his ideas and seeing how far i can go with them. After a lifetime of reading, and feeling like there is a definite progression, i am now come to Quimby.

Two key ideas: (1) our senses are all that we are and they survive our physical death, (2) we are exactly what we believe ourselves to be - that our ideas manifest our existence - the mind-body thing.

He said our ideas, our beliefs, change - but wisdom does not change.

P P Quimby died in 1866. all his writings have been collected online. He cured people using his understanding - he is my personal physician and the only doctor i trust.

 

[southflorida]

But seriously mate how can you rattle off this whole philosophical diatribe without even grasping the concept of positive and negative.... Yin and yang, right and wrong, sun and moon, up and down, even the ebb and flow of the tide...... That's about as subjective as it gets.

I didn't write that I don't grasp what positive and negative are, I was asking trichrider what he meant by positive and negative being all there is.

And as a few others, you didn't read my post and responding to something that has nothing to do with it.

...and btw...what I'm describing is not philosophy, but is a proven scientific fact...our perceptions are indirect, what we perceive is an interpretation made by our self-mind, and this interpretation is based on data that is delivered through our nerve-endings.

...what we are perceiving is NOT what is there...period.

 

[southflorida]

any claims that state things like: "reality is subjective" are absolute claims, making subjectivity the objective reality.

thus, all is objective.

no matter what, if you have two apples and two pears, you'll have four fruits. whether apples taste like pears to someone and pears like apples to someone else is of little consequence.

I wrote out in my posts what I meant. You obviously didn't read it all, and are responding to something pulled out of the context of my post.

My primary point (which is made very clear in two posts in this thread) is that our perceptions are INDIRECT. We don't perceive what is actually there, but instead our self-mind interprets the incoming data and provides it FIRST with an interpretation (a label for whatever is perceived, like an apple) and THEN with a meaning (what this thing means for us, like food, or an object to throw at someone, etc.).

Yes, it can be said that there are objective "objects" in our subjective reality, but my point is that they are in-direct, they are not what is actually there, but instead are interpretations made inside our self-mind.

What is there actually in reality is not-known.

 

[southflorida]

@bentom187: I like the idea behind your post and listened to that video, which points at our fundamental nature (nothing) which we are ignoring since so much of our attention is focused on surviving as a false-self.

 

[southflorida]

it seems to me, my experience is subjective.

but there is an external objective thing ... P P Quimby calls it "wisdom". He says quite a bit about wisdom. i'm spending the last third of my life studying his ideas and seeing how far i can go with them. After a lifetime of reading, and feeling like there is a definite progression, i am now come to Quimby.

Two key ideas: (1) our senses are all that we are and they survive our physical death, (2) we are exactly what we believe ourselves to be - that our ideas manifest our existence - the mind-body thing.

He said our ideas, our beliefs, change - but wisdom does not change.

P P Quimby died in 1866. all his writings have been collected online. He cured people using his understanding - he is my personal physician and the only doctor i trust.

as far as those two ideas, the first is an assumption, and a false one.

if we are our senses, then what is doing the "sensing" ??? This points at our senses being secondary.

this means that there is something primary, something doing the sensing...right?

the second part of the first part, that our sense survive our death is not-known and can't be known.

we don't know what is on the other side, and those that do can't let us know

The second idea, that we are exactly what we believe ourselves to be is also a false assumption.

the process of identifying ourselves as body, mind, emotions, or anything else in our awareness is also a secondary process.

the "thing" doing the identifying is primary, this is who we are.

anything we are "aware of" is NOT us...we are the awareness that is aware

Quimby is pointing at our "created-false-self" in his teachings and not at what or who we are fundamentally, authentically, and originally.

This is a problem of taking on other's beliefs and assumptions. If they are false, we start believing things that are not true.

It is more useful, if you want to know the truth, to directly experience all of this in your own personal experience, and not rely on other's people teachings.

 

[southflorida]

reality encompasses existence.
existence encompasses reality.

objective reality exists and is observed using the senses and communication techniques. but, your experiences rely on personal circumstances and environmental conditions.

...this is my point. it is NOT observed, whatever is REALLY there is interpreted by the mind and an image is provided that we believe and assume is objective...but it is not "really" objective...or to be more correct, it is NOT direct as we believe and assume.

...what we are perceiving is all in-direct, and is basically a creation of our mind, in other words what we think is there, is really not there, it is something simply imagined by us.

 

[offthehook]

...what we are perceiving is all in-direct, and is basically a creation of our mind, in other words what we think is there, is really not there, it is something simply imagined by us.

Cops are there. Every ones a while they come knocking to prove it to us, lol

 

[Stoner4Life]

who in the heck rated this thread 5 ✰'s???

 

[southflorida]

who in the heck rated this thread 5 ✰'s???

you will never guess S4L

but I know if it was up to you, you'd give it 10

 

[southflorida]

Cops are there. Every ones a while they come knocking to prove it to us, lol

what's up offthehook...good to see (hear from) you...been a while

I guess our lives could be compared to a dream from which we simply can't f*cking wake up...lol

actually we do wake up...but then it's too late, we can't jump back into it

 

[southflorida]

To actually grasp what I'm pointing at in my posts in this thread one has to realize that all of our perceptions are SECONDARY processes.

If you FALSELY believe and assume that your perceptions are PRIMARY, your self-mind will resist this realization...obviously.

What IS primary is the AWARENESS that is aware of these secondary and in-direct perceptions.

In other words, what might REALLY be there are gazzilions of atoms flying around, or maybe there is NOTHING there. No matter what IS there, it is NOT-KNOWN, and can't be known through the senses of perception (seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, etc).

The reasons it CAN'T BE KNOWN is because...ding...ding...ding...all your perceptions are INDIRECT processes.

So yes, indirectly you might be seeing objects, thinking thoughts, feeling emotions, smoking a FAT joint, or whatever else, but all of this is happening inside your self-mind, inside your imagination.

Direct perception is IMPOSSIBLE, you can only be what IS, you can't perceive it. You can't perceive awareness/consciousness itself. You can only be aware or conscious of something.

But, whatever you are aware of or conscious of, it is not this awareness/consciousness itself.

The problem is that when we focus on our awareness/consciousness there is NOTHING there, and this is WHY, as a rule, all of our attention is focused on what our senses are perceiving and what our self-mind is interpreting and providing a meaning to in our moment-to-moment experience.

 

[red rider]

All we are is what we thought, the mind is everything.
Buddha

 

[bombadil.360]

I wrote out in my posts what I meant. You obviously didn't read it all, and are responding to something pulled out of the context of my post.

My primary point (which is made very clear in two posts in this thread) is that our perceptions are INDIRECT. We don't perceive what is actually there, but instead our self-mind interprets the incoming data and provides it FIRST with an interpretation (a label for whatever is perceived, like an apple) and THEN with a meaning (what this thing means for us, like food, or an object to throw at someone, etc.).

Yes, it can be said that there are objective "objects" in our subjective reality, but my point is that they are in-direct, they are not what is actually there, but instead are interpretations made inside our self-mind.

What is there actually in reality is not-known.

you are simply describing something that is quite well known; our minds need to process the chaos of data bombarding the senses in order to present us with and orderly perceivable reality.

this, however, does not make said perceivable reality any less real or subjective; this is the way reality is assembled and presented to our senses.

we can even learn to process the chaos of information in different ways; with the aid of entheogens for example, or other techniques.

but this underlying reality that you say that it is not-known, can actually be known and studied, and it has been called sheer-potentiality.

but still, we cannot escape the objective reality of the physical world and physical bodies; like many here have pointed out.

you could be a shaman in the Andes with a head full of mescaline talking to a condor, when suddenly your neighbor comes to ask you if he can borrow a cup of sugar...

peace

 

[1TWISTEDTRUCKER]

Just give Me the Blue pill,, or is the Red pill, that allows you to go back to being plugged to the Machine, and dreaming of the life the Machine has programed You to believe Your Self to be living.
Nah,,, I AM hanging with Morphious, and fighting the MACHINE.

Ignorance is NOT Bliss, and if you choose to remain IGNORANT,,, its NO longer Ignorance,,,,, IS IT?

PEACE; 1TT

 

[offthehook]

what's up offthehook...good to see (hear from) you...been a while

I guess our lives could be compared to a dream from which we simply can't f*cking wake up...lol

actually we do wake up...but then it's too late, we can't jump back into it

Good to see you too man SF

About me: To be honest I feel rather lost. Now trying to be human amongst the humans.
This guy explained in his little book much of the same conclusions about life as what I have been spreading in bits and pieces on the internet.> truthcontest.com read: present. http://www.truthcontest.com/entries/the-present-universal-truth/

Seems like the more I get to know will not make me feel less lost.

The info in this thread is rather old stuff (as many here are also saying) but I anyways opened it to see if you have made any progress meanwhile from wich I could learn.
I always appreciate others Peoples devellopings comming my way.

My comment was in conjunction with a medical patient friend of mines getting knocked on his door by cops that day, even though he got a handshake and a smile from the locals saying they were NOT going to rat him out... Wich they anyways did.
From his, and several other stories I learned that the cops in this country are actually better People than the civillians.
They left him some seeds and said they would only have to come if someone called them, wink wink.

Sounds like progress but it makes me so confused all. I'm still very balanced, therefore just fucking lost... Thanks for asking SF. I'm sure these days will pass.

Please keep on writing SF, I am glad you are back.

 

[ChemDgMillionre]

"Direct perception of reality is impossible through our sense organs, because they work through the interpretation of nerve endings."



perception will always have to be interpreted, how could there be 'direct perception'? perception is a mapping of information.. it is the vehicle to function. isn't this all kind of obvious tho...? i mean.. of course what i'm touching IS there, but i'm perceiving it AS my senses may allow me to, or within the constraints of them at least. but the fact is we are all built the same, thus we are all perceiving the same.. and id venture a guess anything carbon based will share in this.


...so i wouldnt go looking for that tall building quite yet, maybe the next epiphany instead.

 

[offthehook]

Some very good points there Mr Trucker.

Fighting the machine YEAH! I'm all for that, kinda wears me out every once a while though, lol

 

[GreenPlant]

I don't Read your S**T SF

You Talk Excessively


(Really.All your Doing When Whittled Down is Moaning.Remind me not to book a Holiday To South Florida.Weather must be Terrible!..) LOL.

Told you already What is Is. (Of Reality,perception etc)

 

[BushyOldGrower]

I vote for objective reality but I agree with some points.

Yes, our world is based on our subjective take of what we gather as information but there is reality.

That door is a door and it doesn't matter if you see it green and I see it red. Of course we interpret what we perceive so no direct reality observed but it still exists.

I believe that however things actually are is reality. That is objective reality that exists and it's a pretty good bet that the way things really are, really are. However you see it.

Now reality changes and we can affect reality just by changing our viewpoint? We aren't passive in the reality that we have the power to change.

So I believe in objective reality depending on how you look at it. I have said that life is but a dream but even if so that then would be the reality.

So the way it is...is reality but who knows if we will ever know what it is.


Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream. merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream...

Both answers are true depending how you look at it. How you define direct observation.

BushyOG.