Everybody a breeder ?

[Chimera]

WTF are you guys talking about... breeding for secondary metabolites?

from what I understand is, that, THCa when decarboxylated = delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol which when passed through the liver, either from what is left in the blood after an initial pass of the brain when smoked or following digestion when taken orally, is METABOLIZED into 11-hydroxy-tetrahydrocannabinol... THC's SECONDARY METABOLITE which is enzymatically converted by your liver not created by the plants... so...

as far as I know you cannot breed for secondary metabolites, LOL

Infinitesimal,

11-hydroxy is the metabolite of THC produced in the liver, but it is not a secondary metabolite of the plant- THC is itself a secondary metabolite produced by cannabis, as are all the cannabinoids and most of the terpenes.

'Secondary metabolites are organic compounds that are not directly involved in the normal growth, development, or reproduction of an organism'.
-Fraenkel, Gottfried S. (May 1959). "The raison d'Etre of secondary plant substances". Science 129 (3361): 1466–1470.

Any compound you can take away from a plant, and not change the normal growth, development, or reproduction of the plant, is a secondary metabolite; its primary function is not a requirement for the survival of the individual. Many plant produce many compounds which are not necessary for their survival, and these plants are all secondary metabolites... they may confer an evolutionary advantage, but their primary function is not required for the individual to survive. Most plant defense compounds, chemicals involved in allelopathy etc, are all secondary metabolites. You absolutely can breed for both levels, and classes of secondary metabolites, in fact it's what cannabis breeder do, is to alter the secondary metabolism of plants over generations.

Hopes that helps clarify,
-Chimera

 

[Galactic]

the man with the golden gun

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

Well, no one is a breeder after this....chilling to read, thanks Sam..
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-shantibaba-mrnice/4523-international-cannabis-sativa-society.html

i am not a breeder. i play with plants. there is a huge difference. I wish I had the space and education to be a real breeder. one day......

 

[Infinitesimal]

Infinitesimal,

11-hydroxy is the metabolite of THC produced in the liver, but it is not a secondary metabolite of the plant- THC is itself a secondary metabolite produced by cannabis, as are all the cannabinoids and most of the terpenes.

'Secondary metabolites are organic compounds that are not directly involved in the normal growth, development, or reproduction of an organism'.
-Fraenkel, Gottfried S. (May 1959). "The raison d'Etre of secondary plant substances". Science 129 (3361): 1466–1470.

Any compound you can take away from a plant, and not change the normal growth, development, or reproduction of the plant, is a secondary metabolite; its primary function is not a requirement for the survival of the individual. Many plant produce many compounds which are not necessary for their survival, and these plants are all secondary metabolites... they may confer an evolutionary advantage, but their primary function is not required for the individual to survive. Most plant defense compounds, chemicals involved in allelopathy etc, are all secondary metabolites. You absolutely can breed for both levels, and classes of secondary metabolites, in fact it's what cannabis breeder do, is to alter the secondary metabolism of plants over generations.

Hopes that helps clarify,
-Chimera

thanks Chimera,

I have never before heard of cannabinoids and terpenoids referred to as secondary metabolites... but your definition and explanation makes sense.

thanks again,
Peace
Infi

 

[Galactic]

It's not sir Chimeras definition, it is sciences. Guess illusory stalemate better than teabag.

 

[bombadil.360]

... We are not allowed to emphatically say that this will beget that, in regards to environment or anything else, when the products of such will very greatly due to a single thing, genotype. Therefore, genotype ultimately rules all, every geneticist is at peace with this truth, otherwise he would have signed up for hippie class

For thousands of years guys, be it working dog or drug cannabis or strawberries. You do not get to change the percentages of the truly exceptional, not as a breeder, not as a customer. We breed the exceptional in hopes of increasing the percentage of good. This is the truth of quantitative genetics as it pertains to conventional breeding methods, it's been with us forever, and it's not going away anytime soon.

what I've just quoted, imo, bears repeating. as it is the cause of the whole misunderstanding going on.

I think a lot of the issues arise when people think that they can indeed breed specific selected traits just by identifying said traits.

this is not the case.

regardless of the traits you have selected for, there are no guarantees that said traits will pass on. regardless of method or criteria btw.

I think Tom's take is pretty honest in regards to that.

the whole issue in relation to method is simply that some methods allows us to see up to what degree our hoped selected traits will pass on and at what % in a faster manner than with other methods.

but in the end, a given method and criteria will not determine anything at all, it is the plants' genome that will determine it.

understanding this, the job of the actual breeder is hoping to select the preferred pheno and chemo types available in a given population that have a higher % of desirability.

one of the reasons why when you see someone claim: "check out my creation" when it comes to plants, well, said person has no clue what he is talking about.

peace

 

[Infinitesimal]

It's not sir Chimeras definition, it is sciences. Guess illusory stalemate better than teabag.

no its not his but he supplied it, wise acre ... never the less... I understand now, I originally thought people were just using words like secondary metabolites out of context... but I get it...





I guess now would beg the question, how many different genes control production of cannabinoid and terpenoids... I am guessing at least one or more that controls the production for each precursor and subsequent enzymes that play a role in the biosynthetic pathways leading to cannabinoid production... any ideas?

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

^the real problem is coming from the few people that are saying that all it takes to be a breeder is putting a male and female plant together to make seeds. They refuse to acknowledge that there is a specific science to actual plant breeding and it has been pretty defined for a long time. It is the modern day equivalent to insisting the world is flat after some one sails around it......

Yes, there is people with degrees that are that stupid. The other day I had to explain to some one with a bachelors degree how air has mass and contains atoms. They thought air was magic from god. I'm not kidding. I had to explain the periodic table to them.

 

[bombadil.360]

Hash, I dare say the rabbit-hole goes way deeper than that...

a lot of the 'hacks' are being pointed to as such not because they cross a male with a female to make seeds; but mainly because of their claims.

for example, let me write a fictional description of some seed for sale, any resemblance to reality is mere coincidence:

"yeah, so I selected this female full of crystals with this amazing fruity/skunky aroma, and with a high of 1000s miles above the atmosphere, and crossed it to this purple stud full of pollen with amazing branch structure: the result was nothing but what was to be expected from the matching of this two superior plants, I give you my latest creation: Skunky Berry 1000!, and it breeds true"

lol...

 

[Infinitesimal]

Yes, there is people with degrees that are that stupid. The other day I had to explain to some one with a bachelors degree how air has mass and contains atoms. They thought air was magic from god. I'm not kidding. I had to explain the periodic table to them.

now tell those same people that all the solid things around us are almost entirely made up of empty space... because of the of the space between molecules, atoms, the electrons and the nucleus... and watch their heads explode lol

 

[cookie_monster]

I want to try a closet breeding as a experiment. I got a few cookie cuts I want to try to breed. Looking for the right male gonna order a seed pack and hopefully get a good stud

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

Hash, I dare say the rabbit-hole goes way deeper than that...

a lot of the 'hacks' are being pointed to as such not because they cross a male with a female to make seeds; but mainly because of their claims.

for example, let me write a fictional description of some seed for sale, any resemblance to reality is mere coincidence:

"yeah, so I selected this female full of crystals with this amazing fruity/skunky aroma, and with a high of 1000s miles above the atmosphere, and crossed it to this purple stud full of pollen with amazing branch structure: the result was nothing but what was to be expected from the matching of this two superior plants, I give you my latest creation: Skunky Berry 1000!, and it breeds true"

lol...

^I have a clone only pheno type of a cross of neville's haze X LVPK and I call it Lime-Warp. (notice how I dont call it a strain, because there has been no real breeding behind it. It is a cross of two strains from actual breeders, Neville and Kyle Kushman) I have only handed it out to a few people and on other forums I see people claiming to have it that I know for a fact dont have it. They either never have a picture or the one they do have looks like something completely different. I dont even bother to call them out. I could careless I just find it very funny.

what is even funnier is they claim to have the original cut since before the cross was even made by Dominican green.

 

[Nunsacred]

http://genomebiology.com/content/pdf/gb-2011-12-10-r102.pdf

Nice one , thanks for posting that,

It's pseudo genes & control configurations,
rather than discreet allelic differences,
.....that make the traits that we are most concerned with.

Am I the only one who thinks that "homozygosity" is completely inapplicable to cannabis traits? Feels like it sometimes, and I'm disappointed to see the authors talking about it even after acknowledging the numbers of gene copies. Oh well.

 

[Aardwolf]

My original post covered 'selection of breeding method' it is the processes plant breeders use to make improved varieties, from current available crops via critical selection, They incorporate traits from known pedigree's into hybrid progeny.


I don't understand how you can misuse botanical terminology.
Gynocious selection utilizes Monoecious pollenizer plants that produce mostly male flowers. Therefore from the outset this breed isn't gynocious by default.

The use of chemicals for creating pollen is long winded for the competent grower and causes toxins to be applied to a plant when it is totally unnecessary in most circumstances.


What you are breeding for is totally relevant.

Example: To create female seeds the efficiency of selecting a male plant to be a pollen source will reduce the desired outcome by up to half. Selecting a xx pistillate individual will garner 99.9% xx plants.

 

[homebrew420]

Yes, that is where this thread started out, with folk clueless of the complexities of drug cannabis. Some of you guys think that you know where you can get better than that - you are cheap dates. What you are getting is more middle plant percentages, and a whole lot of bullshit to fill your mind with too. Try as you may, you will not turn drug cannabis into corn, not unless you are a blinded, cheap date. Sigh, but gimmee gimmee gimmee, wish in one hand and crap in the other, then see which gets filled first, just don't get all offended, when we all tell you your wishes, are nothing but crap too, while we giggle watching you scramble to get it all out of your hands ..

So Tom you're saying that "middle" percentage is worthless? Yeah maybe in terms of breedimg stock. However this is where there seems to be the understanding gap. Many folks purchase seeds to get a nice plant with no intention of breeding. For these people, YOUR customers, you 're saying good luck? With what appears to be a much lower middle percenage than some of the seed packs I grown out. I have grownout and followed down lines 5generations deep, how can you say that selecting for an expression yeild no results? I have seen this myself. Not to mention Cannes Abyss has worked his line over multiple gens, 7 I think he stated, if he did not select for novelty how would he have gotten a webbed leaf and purple flowers?
Are you working on another group of hybrids elsewhere cbd specific or thcv specific? What is your goal as a breeder. No offense but you seem to be just preserving lines, and with this techniue how could one hope to improve or do anything specific with individuals when, from what you have said doesn, t sound as though you're doing this.
Many of us are trying to be informed arrogance and entitlement never lend themselves to understanding.if this is not your intention, to help others here why do you continue to post. I wull be honest in saying I have lost a great deal of respect for you because of this thread. Dont say shit doesn't matter then attack someone for it. Unproffesional

 

[DemonPigeon]

Nice one , thanks for posting that,

It's pseudo genes & control configurations,
rather than discreet allelic differences,
.....that make the traits that we are most concerned with.

Am I the only one who thinks that "homozygosity" is completely inapplicable to cannabis traits? Feels like it sometimes, and I'm disappointed to see the authors talking about it even after acknowledging the numbers of gene copies. Oh well.

I don't think so, if people take their lines far enough along you can get quite minimal diversity in the offspring for certain characteristics at least if they set their targets clearly and on a specific and achievable target.

The thing is people don't always know *exactly* what they're aiming at.

Lets say I want a certain growth form I find in an f1 cross... I'm unlikely to achieve that consistently in any number of generations of offspring.
Perhaps several genes from each parent are dominant and selfing the plant and it's own "S" generations many times may produce plants which are consitent for elements of the desired type.. I don;t know... lets say... Internode spacing, petiole length and the maleability of the stems (based on the rate of fibre formation) but which don't quite match what I wanted.

But the real problem is when midparent values are the origin or part of the origin of the targeted trait.

(I'd consider perhaps the "non-truebreeding" High of the "exceptional 5%" of Tom Hills Haze is the result of at least 2 Co-Dominant alleles or else I'd think he'd have sucessfully made it breed true given the scale of his projects. But I may be wrong about the cause, if anyone knows it's Tom Hill and not me.)

It may be that multiple domimant (and recessive traits ofcourse though these are unlikely to show up in an f1 cross unless both parents carry it) can be bred for homozygousity which increases the probability of "like" offspring but that the particular characteristic is the result of additional co-dominance relationships in other alleles aswell as dominance in the alleles you have stabilised. This would mean over generations you may increase the probability up to a threshold where it would cease to rise further.

Additionally to this some genes may control multiple factors, and people may try (unsucessfully) to try to seperate two visible features both caused by the same genetic roots.

Taking up the multiple gene copies point I'd be very interested in seeing an attempt to produce a webbed leaf Bruised Nuts to see if it's possible

 

[vonforne]

Remember......no hitting below the belt, no eye gouges etc. a good clean fight!

Let the games begin.........

 

[OldSSSCGuy]

Oh goodie...

 

[DemonPigeon]

Remember......no hitting below the belt, no eye gouges etc. a good clean fight!

Let the games begin.........

Will there be someone nominated from each of the sides to make their official opening statement?

Hobby Breeders

Seedbank affecienados and associated entourage

Hippy growers

 

[Weird]

Hense why Weird's earlier misunderstanding about "using quantitative genetics" was so very laughable - because the methods I am outlining here outside of marker assisted technology, are the most efficient including taking into account quantitative genetics, while it is really he, who wanders around in Mendelianville...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_genetics

Quantitative genetics is the study of the inheritance of continuously measured traits (such as height or weight) and their mechanisms. It can be an extension of simple Mendelian inheritance in that the combined effects of one or more genes and the environments in which they are expressed give rise to continuous distributions of phenotypic values.


Just FYI Tom quantitative genetics are used to measure the efficiency of Mendelian selection techniques and you don't require gene markers to use it.

http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/plsc431/quantgen/qgen1.htm

Basically if you track your results you can calculate the variance in your methods and thus actualize the benefit of the techniques in the same terms you use to justify their use