Everybody a breeder ?

[Nunsacred]

So a larger test cross population is desirable but is it more scientific?

Isn't it more sensible to test sibling trait penetrance versus progeny t.p.
Than
Self progeny t.p. to infer hybrid t.p.
To really understand whether you're choosing the right parental plants?

I think it is anyway.

 

[Weird]

im abandoned because i force fed my family these truths. liars will self destruct when theyre determined to hold their lies as truths yet are nose-rubbed by the truth. i am sure that this is where being an arteest will pay bigger divedends than cold hard logic. viktor frankl talks about how a plane will crab into a forceful wind or a boat will tack to overcome a strong wind in order to make progress and i believe if we do this with people we can tickle out a persons better-interests-mindness than by showing them how stupid and lazy and evil they are truely being. it is one of the hardest pills ive ever swallowed- being right yet resulting in being almost completely isolated because nobody likes my smartass lol. logic and intelligence are the ingredients for loneliness ime.
peace,
pwf

both the idiot and the savant are marginalized by the mediocrity of the average man

- weird

 

[Weird]

Mathematics are well and good but nature keeps dragging us around by the nose.
~Albert Einstein

When I asked Rob Clarke in 1979 how much non-genetic factors such as soils, sun intensity, humidity/dryness, and elevation mattered to herb potency he said perhaps 5%, not even 10%. That conversation was pre-Ozone depletion and I don't know if that will matter either.

Still, genetics are everything according to Rob and in the search for the special pheno in various strain crosses, one can benefit by growing out 100s, even 1,000s. Test, test, test, then cross again depending on which direction you want to go. Copious notes are the order of the day for the cannabis geneticist as well as several years pointed in one direction for your Grail. Luck helps, too......ask the Haze Brothers!

Rob by the way did all of his original work with Sam S outdoors or in greenhouses for what that's worth.

Thank you very much for sharing that

I wonder if the stock they were searching (landrace?) had a lower average thc content (and associated cannabinoids) and they were searching for the best the genotype had to offer in the way of chemical phenotype.

IMHO by what I have observed in the circles I participate in as well as my own experience is that most people are starting with a chosen breeder or a best of pheno and the progeny are on average like the parent and indoors its is fairly easy to ensure healthy secondary metabolite productions. Add the effects of the indoor environment on phenotype expression, I think the hunt for suitable chemical phenotypes becomes less difficult.

I am not putting that in context to a commercial breeding program, just the average results using today's strains and average grower resources. Breeders can use science to help ensure results but are they going to change the genetic potential of cannabis through traditional breeding using science? As far as I know they can only try to ensure the expression. I am not including gmo in this equation.

Unless people think or know that the cannabis genotypes have greater percentages of thc etc in their gene makeup and it has yet to be expressed and captured. I think we have reached those potential limits with some strains, especially if we consider the fact that many people feel the most cutting edge strains are too powerful to enjoy. Once again, to me, it all comes back to relativity.

Thanks though for sharing hope there is more, those must have been exciting days, begs the question how does it feel now that it seems the world got the message about the meed and times are a changing?

peace

 

[frankenstein2]

So does it work like this: I had an acid plant that liked to hermie like a fucker. The weed was too good not to grow. So as a result i have 100's of s1's. I have grown and flowered 3 so far and the third one is awesome, no nanners, huge rock hard nugs, and it smells like garbage(in a good way, chemmy garbage kinda). It has the look of the mother in leaf structure and growth rate and pattern. So if i keep trying these s1's, i'm gonna find one that is like the mother, but with no nanners, and a grapefruit smell. And then when i find that i need to self it to see if it's traits will pass on to it's progeny. For a side note, the original acid plant i had gave me lots of feminized f1's. I have grown a few and in at least one i have noticed the grapefruit smell and taste. The plant that was like that was a seed that came out of an la confidential. Ya think that because the LA is such a stable strain, when gene recombination occured the la allows the smell and taste to transfer from the father/pollen doner. I've noticed that quite a few crosses are made with the LA and the selling point is the LA power with the taste of the other strain in the cross.
I love this shit, and these discussions. It makes me that much more knowledgable, along with anyone who comes in contact with me that grows-keep it coming

 

[BasementGrower]

iunno i think people creative thinking can make some incredible genetics.. i dont care if ur a breeder or a seed maker.. or a pollen chucker.. if ur seed is producing great product.. then u did ur job! if not. ull proly stay afloat till people realize ur shits bunk. and ull end up out the busines..
i just dont get how BCBD is still around with all the bullshit they pull.. !! if people STOP SUPPOrting everything HIGHTIMES supports maybe we would have better genetics out there and less people being able to keep there business open because of dumb growers who buy shit based on a hightimes mag. !

 

[Tom Hill]

I am not sure I understand any of that Nunsacred,

but if you are asking the same thing you were earlier (ie the value of homozygosity tests) compared to the value of the final testing (obsrving the offspring of a cross), it's like asking whether it's more important to swing the bat vs to hit the ball. It's when they are used in combination with each other that you'll be taking maximum advantage of the science.

....and Weird that's a problem man, people keep using it as a cop out that they are not professional/commercial breeders to defend their unscientific methods, it's just ignorance. Nobody is telling anybody they need to grow thousands of plants or any of that, only that if they apply some knowledge of the science to their "average grower resources" when they breed, their results will improve. Yes it's relative alright, their results suck now relative to what they could be by utilizing some knowledge of plant breeding. To question or argue against that is just ignorance imo.

 

[homebrew420]

Well read this whole damn thread. Really not ssure if feel I have gained much insight but BlackCreek Gardens I am with you.
I feel that telling someone they MIGHT have to run 30 seeds to find the ONE is shite. I have made some winning crosses and made many loser crosses. Holding on to parents is vey importance. Ensures the ability to exactly replicate for consistancy. If a breeder wants to open pollinate, narrow the selected genepool. Why should there be 10 different pheno s to be found in a population. I am not going to argue about bottlenecking either. As a breeder one needs to think about this. Selling to consumers, well it has been said already, most consumers are looking for a keeper. Not breeding material. This too needs to be considered. I am bredding currently . Nothing will be officially released until we are confident about our selections. This is very ttime consuming at about 40+ of each variety to determine value. Selfing is going to help a load Tom and I thank you for puting that out for all to see. Clears up quesrions about an individual of unknown origin. I feel as a breeder it is my job to offer a product that will deliver exactly what I say it will.
Sadly cannabis doesn't play nice like so many other ag crops.A Breeder needs to work the line, that is breeding. Good or bad it is still breeding, more than 2 gens into a selected genepool I feel qualifies. Heirloom varieties are of utmost importance. I am working witha few of these currently and will determine their value as they flower.mutant will be bred but seperated from general population and never reintroduced. Yes there is a scientific method for reaching the goal faster, and some like the old ways. Winners will rise to the top. Also I will use my 3rd eye to determine which direction I should go sometimes. It is about feeling sometimes. (Especially if one can't run the numbers)


If someone asks a direct question, why not just try to answer it? Seems to be a whole load of un aswered questions between folks here. Haha maybe it doesn't matter.

Peace

 

[Weird]

I am not sure I understand any of that Nunsacred,

but if you are asking the same thing you were earlier (ie the value of homozygosity tests) compared to the value of the final testing (obsrving the offspring of a cross), it's like asking whether it's more important to swing the bat vs to hit the ball. It's when they are used in combination with each other that you'll be taking maximum advantage of the science.

....and Weird that's a problem man, people keep using it as a cop out that they are not professional/commercial breeders to defend their unscientific methods, it's just ignorance. Nobody is telling anybody they need to grow thousands of plants or any of that, only that if they apply some knowledge of the science to their "average grower resources" when they breed, their results will improve. Yes it's relative alright, their results suck now relative to what they could be by utilizing some knowledge of plant breeding. To question or argue against that is just ignorance imo.

I didn't argue any science just offering an explanation to the possible differences between then and now. The results being relative was based on the comparison of 1000 plants of an land-race that has yet to be bred to express its full potential regularly versus a smaller pool of a strain that has been bred to its full potential being run indoors. Not the results are relative science versus non scientific approach.

 

[Tom Hill]

So if I find that the original mom doesn't, when reversed initially, show to breed true for the aroma/taste profile, then one of her s1 progeny that displays the trait will?

Iow, if the mom doesn't display true breeding tendencies in a reversal, then test one of the s1 progeny(that displays desired traits) for homozygosity.

Yes you've got it man.

but if the progeny of a reversal show a tendency towards reproducing those traits, it(the s1 that displays dseired traits) might be worth trying in an outcrossing to the stabilized OG?

if an acceptable percentage of the progeny from the original parent upon selfing show the trait/s, then the original parent is worth trying in the outcross, no need to look at reversing S1's. Otherwise, yes, test S1's via reversal and observe those progeny etc etc. And therein lies one of the main values of breeding utilizing selfing via reversal btw.. If it proves out that the parent we'd like to use, is terribly heterozygous, the progenies as we continue on with selfing, become homozygous 3 times more efficiently than under any male/female breeding scheme.-T

 

[oceangrownkush]

Since this is a TomHill show now I thought I should get a question out there I've always had about X18 and its breeding worth; For some reason, not through it being said explicitly but rather from what a bunch of stoners have told me online, I have this idea that X18 is non-dominating in crosses. Is this true? Thank you for your time sir.

 

[Tom Hill]

If someone asks a direct question, why not just try to answer it? Seems to be a whole load of un aswered questions between folks here. Haha maybe it doesn't matter.

I obviously can't speak for others but there can be many reasons for this, sometimes someone (haha Weird) will ask a question that has zero bearing on the subject, and I'll not indulge in everything others think is relevant, if I believe it not to be. Indeed, sometimes it doesn't matter is right.

Other times I do not even understand what the hell people are asking because they are not speaking a language I understand.

and sometimes, well they are so far off the only answer I have is that they have no clue at all, and if I am not in a mood to go there, I don't/won't.

I do however try to answer what I think are honest questions, if I understand them, no matter how ignorant the thoughts that spurred those questions might be in my eyes. At least I try to, maybe missed a few or a lot, but am willing to bet most fit into one of the above categories.

 

[MedicalGrower]

Thanks for the photo what a picture of beauty!
mg

Indeed the plants do

View Image

One of the creations out of Spain

Keep on growing

 

[Tom Hill]

OGK,

X18, PTK, North India, Deep Chunk, Haze, all the inbred lines I maintain and have ever offered, are more prepotent than lines that are not so inbred, and tend to pass several of their traits on to their progeny. This is relatively true of all inbred lines and therein lies one of their main values. That is to say, if I am seeking homozygosity via selfing for example, I'll find it to a much greater degree/percentage among the mentioned lines than folk will among the average multi hybrid.

 

[Tom Hill]

since you guys are having fun talking about breeding and no one even seemed to look at my thread but one guy, ill ask my stupid questions in here.
i'm sure you guys prolly answer this question all the time, but if i have a female in clone form and i want to get into seed form, can i do this (the following)?

i will take a random male and cross it to clone only girl. grow out the f1 generation and take all, or a selection of the best and dust the mom again. in that bx generation will i find a large percentage of girls that resemble the mom that i can then cross with the males from the f1 to find more females similar to the original mom?

since i'm excluding all the females in the f1 and using only the mom traits passed to the males won't that help me isolate the original genes faster since i don't have to factor any females carrying the traits passed from the original male?

whether or not you'll find a large percentage of individuals resembling the recurrent parent in a backcrossing scheme no matter the amount of backcrossing, is entirely dependant on whether or not the recurrent parent is homozygous for wanted traits. And going back to the F1 against the recurrent parent would be a step backwards.

 

[mapinguari]

Tom, as you've been so kind in answering others' requests about your current projects here, would you please say a word or two about where your Monkey Haze breeding is at the moment?

Last I saw you said the next step was to grow out a bunch of the f2s and pick some mothers to start families to work, right?

This is from my favorite plant from last season:

 

[Tom Hill]

Mapinguari, yeah, the question stings a bit though CBF and I set aside 3 outstanding individuals to plug into a pedigree program/genotype testing, then in the chaos of harvest, we both failed to water them and they died. So where I am at now is 2,000+/- seeds in storage, and back to the old drawing board, haha, it happens. -T

this was one of the three, and damn, it hurt to lose them, they were worthy of further exploration.

 

[HidingInTheHaze]

OGK,

X18, PTK, North India, Deep Chunk, Haze, all the inbred lines I maintain and have ever offered, are more prepotent than lines that are not so inbred, and tend to pass several of their traits on to their progeny. This is relatively true of all inbred lines and therein lies one of their main values. That is to say, if I am seeking homozygosity via selfing for example, I'll find it to a much greater degree/percentage among the mentioned lines than folk will among the average multi hybrid.

What's the good word on the N.I?



That monkey haze is a stunning lady.

 

[mapinguari]

Thanks for the answer, Tom, and for sharing that photo. It is a beautiful plant indeed and a shame to lose.

But I can't wait to see what turns up this year, for you and me both.

 

[TheArchitect]

if an acceptable percentage of the progeny from the original parent upon selfing show the trait/s, then the original parent is worth trying in the outcross, no need to look at reversing S1's. Otherwise, yes, test S1's via reversal and observe those progeny etc etc. And therein lies one of the main values of breeding utilizing selfing via reversal btw.. If it proves out that the parent we'd like to use, is terribly heterozygous, the progenies as we continue on with selfing, become homozygous 3 times more efficiently than under any male/female breeding scheme.-T

What, in your opinion, is an acceptable %. Obviously the higher the better, but is 50-60% a fair target.

 

[Tom Hill]

yes sir, I used the 50% of progeny resembling mom purposely. We want to see a drastic difference from the mean, there should and will be a great departure from the norm before we can honestly grant it value. If we were to get excited about some 1-5% gain in apparent genotypic value, then we'd be kidding ourselves as much as someone making selections based on intuition. Yes, you will see a drastic difference in these tests, and you will make moves accordingly, and walk away with a genuine pat on your back, knowing that you've truly done your best.