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Bitcoin cracks US$100

bentom187

Active member
Veteran
here is a good write up I found ,it will help people understand what it is,and the risks, if they do not know.
http://mises.org/daily/6399/The-Moneyness-of-Bitcoins

The Money-ness of Bitcoins

Mises Daily: Thursday, April 04, 2013 by Nikolay Gertchev

Bitcoins have been much in the news lately. Against the background of renewed concerns about the integrity of the euro zone and the imposition of capital controls in Cyprus, the price of a bitcoin has tripled over the last month and reached more than $141 for 1 BTC. Are we witnessing the spontaneous emergence of an alternative virtual medium of exchange, as some would put it? This article offers an answer to this question by considering three aspects of the economy of bitcoins: their production process, their demand factors, and their capacity to compete with physical media of exchange.



The Production of Bitcoins


A bitcoin is a unit of a nonmaterial virtual currency, also called crypto-currency, by the same name. They are stored in anonymous “electronic wallets,” described by a series of about 33 letters and numbers. Bitcoins can travel from a wallet to a wallet, by means of an online peer-to-peer network transaction. Any inter-wallet transfer is registered in the code of the bitcoin, so that the record of its entire transaction history clearly identifies its owner at any single moment, thereby preventing potential ownership conflicts. Bitcoins can be further divided into increments as small as one 100 millionth of a bitcoin. The current outstanding volume of bitcoins is above 10 million and is projected to reach 21 million in the year 2140.

This brings us to the truly fascinating production process of the bitcoins. They are “mined” based on a pre-defined mathematical algorithm, and come in a bundle, currently of 25 units, as a reward for carrying out a large number of computational operations that aim at discovering the solution to what could be described as a randomized mathematical puzzle. The role of the algorithm is to ensure a declining progression of the overall stock of bitcoins, by halving the reward every four years. Thus, somewhere in the beginning of 2017, the reward bundle will consist of 12.5 units only. Also, the more bitcoins are produced, the harder are the randomized mathematical puzzles to be solved.

Bitcoins come about as the uncertain pay-off for an energy—and hardware—-consuming process that is extended through time. The per-time pay-off varies, based on the efficiency and sophistication of the more-or-less specific hardware used for the mining. Individual miners have started to pool their efforts, and this cooperation has tremendously reduced the uncertainty that each individual miner bears.

Due to this costly production process, bitcoins, although virtual, are constrained by scarcity. While a bitcoin has no material shape or content, the algorithm that generates it has been designed to replicate the competitive production of a scarce good. First, entry in the business of producing bitcoins is open to anybody. Second, the production process is capital and labor intensive, extended through time, and also uncertain. Third, production is subject to decreasing returns, thereby conforming to the generalized scarcity faced by acting individuals in the better-known physical world. Thus, bitcoins turn out to be the exact opposite of the “Linden dollars” of the Second Life “virtual world.” The latter are produced by a monopolist central authority, out of thin air, and without any other limitation but the very discretion of that same monopolist authority.

However, it is not their costs of production that bestow on bitcoins the status of an economic good. After all, scarcity is not rooted in the absolute quantitative limitation of something; it comes from the insufficiency of the stock of that something, perceived as useful in some regard, relative to the individuals’ needs. Hence, we must ask ourselves how bitcoins have come to be valued at all. This leads us to an analysis of their demand.



The Demand for Bitcoins


At their inception, bitcoins were created and first held within a “crypto-punk” community. It could then be safely assumed that they served the purpose of conveying a specific antiestablishment worldview. The first demand factor, initially for producing bitcoins, and then unavoidably but only indirectly for holding them, was rooted in their capacity to project a certain point of view. In a sense, bitcoins were comparable to an artistic medium of expression, such as music, literature, and painting.

Thanks to that initial source of value, bitcoins had a reference point that positioned them relative to other goods and services. From there onward, the technological features that characterize them led to an expansion of their demand. Bitcoins are imperishable. Storage and protection against theft or accidental loss come at a very low cost, as these are accessory services rendered by standard antivirus and back-up software. Marginal transaction costs are also practically zero, once the fixed cost of establishing and maintaining a network connection has been accounted for. All these aspects are common to real wealth assets. Thus, the second demand factor for bitcoins is explained by their capacity to store wealth at a low cost. From the status of a good which, as a “worldview-conveyor,” was largely used for personal enjoyment (and hence consumption), bitcoins evolved into an investment good that has become attractive well beyond its original crypto-punk community.

The growing investment demand also spurred the development of intermediary dealers in bitcoins. There are a number of exchanges where bitcoins can be bought and sold against currencies. Specialized online storage, presumably with increased security, has also been made available. Intermediation, though open to free entry, is likely to remain rather monopolistic, given the very low margins associated with transacting in and with bitcoins.

This latter aspect, namely the intrinsically low transaction fee, contributes to a third demand factor for bitcoins, namely as a means of payment. A number of online vendors, who are mostly specialized in web-related services and online sales of rather exotic items, accept final payment in bitcoins, not the least because of the guarantee for almost absolute anonymity. This last component of the demand for bitcoins is still nascent. After all, a very limited set of items can be purchased with bitcoins, and sellers still price their goods in dollars, euros, etc. The price is then converted into bitcoins, according to the prevailing exchange rate, at the final stage of finalizing the payment method of the transaction. Thus, while bitcoins do appear to serve as a means of payment, they are definitely not used yet for business calculation. This is most certainly attributable to their still very limited demand to hold as a means of exchange. Nevertheless, couldn’t they become full-fledged money in the foreseeable future?



Bitcoins as Money


Prima facie, bitcoins possess all the qualities required from a money (a generally-used medium of exchange). They are perfectly homogeneous, easily cognizable, conveniently divisible, storable at practically no cost, and imperishable. Also, they seem to be fully shielded from counterfeiting. In addition, because they exist as a consumption and investment good, they are appraised on their own, thereby satisfying the Misesian regression criterion for the free-market inception of a medium of exchange. However, in order to become a viable alternative to existing monies, bitcoins must generate a sufficiently large demand so that their usage becomes generalized. Without the certainty that they can be transacted for any other good in the economy, a demand to hold them as money could not develop. It is with respect to their capacity to become and remain commonly used that bitcoins suffer from a relative disadvantage.

Indeed, bitcoins are embodied in a specific and highly capital-intensive technology. They can become convenient enough for standard personalized transactions only if both parties of the exchange possess the necessary technology that gives access to bitcoins. Bitcoins can do the job already for internet-based impersonalized purchases, because the marginal cost of the exchange technology they go along with is already almost zero for those who possess it. However, the transposition of that technology in the physical world of common face-to-face shopping (getting a haircut, buying a sandwich, or purchasing vegetables at the local grocery shop) would imply extra costs. True, these costs would decrease progressively as portable smartphones with permanent internet access become more widely used, not only by buyers, but also by sellers. The key point, however, is that bitcoins could become a generalized medium of exchange only through the accessory use of other, specific and physical, goods in an economy that has reached a very high level of technological development. This is a tremendous disadvantage, for at least two reasons.

First, at any given moment, the level of technological development is not uniform for all individuals within the same (national) economy. While some have access to the latest technology in a given field of activity, others prefer to stick to older versions. This is definitely due to the cost of replacing existing capital goods, but also to individual preferences, and sometimes to personal wealth. Consequently, bitcoins could become money only at the point when the technology that embodies them becomes commonly used. We are not there yet.

Second, an economy in which the medium of exchange is dependent so much upon the widespread use of a specific technology would be extremely vulnerable. Technologies are not given; they are the result of individual choices with respect to capital accumulation and allocation that must be made time and again, and are subject to reversal. Then, if the medium-of-exchange-linked technology is abandoned, because for instance no sufficient savings are available any longer, the economy will have to find another medium of exchange. This transition phase might then involve significant disruptions in the structure of production. A technology-linked medium of exchange does not provide enough flexibility to economic relations and might be viewed as complicating, rather than facilitating, some actions, such as shifting from one technology to another. This is a significant drawback of any virtual currency.

In trying to understand whether the increased popularity of bitcoins is reflecting the emergence of a new money, we have actually come to a fundamental distinction between virtual and material media of exchange. The latter are technology-independent and matter-embodied; the former are technology-embodied and matter independent. This distinction is not trivial as it emphasizes the great advantage that material money offers: it is good enough for anybody and at any time, and is independent from individual choices with respect to investment, allocation and maintenance of capital. Virtual monies could be programmed to reproduce some aspects of material, whether commodity or fiat, monies. However, they will always be dependent on specific capital investment decisions. The latter reduce their degree of commonality as well as of adaptability to changing economic conditions.

In conclusion, virtual monies, of which bitcoins seem to be the most perfected specimen up to date, do not allow acting individuals to manage the uncertainty of the future as well as material monies do. They could serve to intermediate exchanges among those who invest in the technology that creates them, stores them, and transfers them. Nevertheless, they could never achieve that degree of universality and flexibility that material monies carry with them by nature. Thus, on the free market, commodity monies, and presumably gold and silver, still have a great comparative advantage.
 

mean mr.mustard

I Pass Satellites
Veteran
That IS impressive.

I froze one in ice and tried to crack it with a hammer but it only tore.

Bitcoin you must be a witch.
 

bombadil.360

Andinismo Hierbatero
Veteran
You just perfectly described the current centrally planned markets of the world. Assets prices (stocks, bonds, etc) are being blown up by central banks printing money and pushing liquidity into such assets.

Bernanke and his ilk call it the "wealth effect" of quantitative easing. If all asset prices are up, even if it's just artificially inflated, then people will feel wealthy and spend money. So, blow bubbles everywhere and try and fool people into ignoring the underlying fundamentals in the "real economy". Bernanke and his ilk are making value out of thin air, or so they say. And yes, it's all one big scam.

The reason Bitcoin exists and is going bananas is because it's a free market reaction to the global printing scam. The market is desperately looking for something to have faith in. The price has exploded after the Cyprus collapse because everyone now knows their deposits aren't safe from insolvent governments that are owned and operated by insolvent banks.

Whether Bitcoin is a scam or not I cannot say for sure. All I know is that its price action is a reaction to the fiat money scam that crumbles a little more everyday.

Either way, sheep will be slaughtered.


that's a bit too biased of a view imo.

some people would argue that if they had not printed money, there would not have been liquidity to back up all the gambling and speculation that went on and still goes masquerading as real value.

afterall, the old scams are now a no-go, and regulations to prevent them kick in... and so new scams pop up, so go around regulations and dazzle the unaware, thus creating more bubbles.

what's the new scam? stronger than bitcoins... aren't they betting on micro-seconds within stocks and the fastest servers placed as close to the stock market to gain advantages? crazy shit by crazy people...

probably they should re-make the whole playing rules, and just allow the good old game of shares' holding of already evaluated goods and services? maybe too simple for some... ???

its easy to see how lazy unproductive people with no creativity find it easier to speculate and gamble in relation to stocks, than to actually let the stocks rise or fall according to the demand and quality of the good and services themselves, as it was meant to be.
 

SpasticGramps

Don't Drone Me, Bro!
ICMag Donor
Veteran
some people would argue that if they had not printed money, there would not have been liquidity to back up all the gambling and speculation that went on and still goes masquerading as real value.
I agree. The house of cards will collapse unless the central banks print money to feed the market. They have to print more and more now due to diminishing returns. I, and many more, argue that in time all this printing will collapse the house of cards and there will be nothing the central banks can do to stop it next time around.

afterall, the old scams are now a no-go, and regulations to prevent them kick in... and so new scams pop up, so go around regulations and dazzle the unaware, thus creating more bubbles.
The old scams are still in. The regulations are a joke at best and consolidated power even further for Too Big Too Fail. Now instead of the Greenspan bubble in dotcom and housing. We have bubbles in almost everything. What could go wrong?

what's the new scam? stronger than bitcoins... aren't they betting on micro-seconds within stocks and the fastest servers placed as close to the stock market to gain advantages? crazy shit by crazy people...
High Frequency trading + central bank printing = .01% wet dream

probably they should re-make the whole playing rules, and just allow the good old game of shares' holding of already evaluated goods and services? maybe too simple for some... ???
Complexity equals corruption. Complexity makes the scam possible.
 

megayields

Grower of Connoisseur herb's.
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Bitcoin Hacked: Price Stumbles After Buying Frenzy

Bitcoin Hacked: Price Stumbles After Buying Frenzy

Online currency bitcoin had 20 percent knocked off its price overnight on Thursday as one of its major exchanges became the victim of a hacking attack leading to a sell-off in the virtual currency after reaching an all-time high.

Uncertainty over other currencies, turmoil in Cyprus and media interest are just some of the reasons commentators are citing for the 360 percent rise in bitcoin prices over the last month. The frenzied interest in bitcoins piled over onto the social media site Twitter and led to a spike in Google searches on the topic. (rest of article on CNBC.com)
 
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powerrobbie

People laughed at a "friend of a friend of a friend" when he bought a thousand coins at 2 bucks each. Who is laughing now? Anyone that thinks there a scam is retarted. This is the future my friend, these coins are SO easily turned into real cash and you can send them to anyone, anywhere in the world 100% annoymously and FOR FREE! I can't believe more of you guys haven't started to conduct business with these things, there were 90 bucks two days ago then yesterday over $120 and they are going to keep going up no matter what.

Even if they do drop from time to time, there is a limited amount of coins that can be produced which is 21 million coins. Once all of the coins are produced, each one will literally by worth tens of thousands of dollars with NO risk of inflation as no more can everbe produced. It is a secure investment and although it is going to take a long time to get up to thousands per each coin, when I first heard of this shit there were a couple bucks each....they have pretty much steadliy gone up up and up with only a few big "drops" but they will ALWAYS recover. and I can go into more detal about how right now they are going to keep climbing at a FAST fucking rate.....

I'm happy a "friend of a friend of a friend of mine" researched these so much and got them when everyone thought they were stupid as fuck, now even though it is still a good investment, the real gravy train to make FAST money as some what passed but even if you only buy 3 coins and hold on to those for a long time you WILL profit greatly. These things are the most popular way to sell drugs online now, no more sketchy Western Union/cash in mail sales and shit for online vendors

.....Right now the price is going to keep climbing because on the worlds biggest trader of these coins (mtgox.com) has a line up of literally thousands of people trying to register on their site to buy coins, and although most people use them to buy drugs and shit online a HUGE percent of these people are hoarding them as they know the longer they hoard the more value they will get, so with so many people hoarding the coins and them not being in circulation the value keeps skyrocketing.

BTW if you want to get invlolved with these things do NOT use mtgox.com, the reason it takes so long to register with them is because they require you to provide them with your real identity be doing such things as sending photocopies of your ID's, birth certificate and even your house untility bills so they take the annoymous part out of it. pretty much ANY other exchanger you use will allow you to purchase these things 100% annoymously be either going into the bank and simply depositing money into their account (no ID required for this) and then they send the coins to your "wallet" and lots of exchangers even take cash in the mail so you don't even need to walk into the bank. All your wallet is is a bunch of random letters and numbers like this "EHwhb6e7yefjdkwjd" with NO name attached and all you need to send the coins to someone else is there wallet address.....

It is an amazing way to move money all over the world without the receiver/the law even know who sent them. It is very easy to get a wallet set up on your computer.....just got to blockchain.info and you can set one up for free and back it up as many times as you want on USB sticks, your phone, other computers etc. so that way if your computer breaks and crashes you do not lose your coins and your wallet is password encrypted so no one can just open your computer and steal your coins and now they are so secure hackers cannot steal them either....in the past they have but that hasn't happened in a LONG time.
 
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powerrobbie

Another inherent problem with bitcoin is, to verify your bits, you have to verify and update the block chain, which is also why the currency is transparent, the entire block chain is public record, and you can follow all transactions to the source and receiving ip address.

Anyway, back to the real problem I see. What happens when the block chain is 100 terabytes, 1) that makes it a prohibitively long process even with a fast Internet connection and huge bandwidth. 2) how do you store it? Every time you update your wallet it's saved, who makes a 100 terabyte flash drive? Doesn't seem it'll be all that portable.


this is completly false info, there is no IP tied to anyones wallet address. It does not matter that BTC wallets are public record, there is no name attached, it is simply a random jumple of letters and numbers.

PLUS everyone that's smart and using these things uses the tor browser which completely hides your IP. I get why you guys think this shits a huge scam but the've been out since 2010 and single indiduals have literally made millions by investing in these things in the early stages when they were worth fuck all. Everyone is so quick to call it a ponzi scheme. It is a decentralized PEER to PEER network. It cannot but shut down and is most certainltly not a ponzi scheme...

please do some heavy research to understand these things as they can be difficult to understand at first but you should be able to understand it no problem with a couple hours of reading.....
 
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powerrobbie

Lol ok, try this on bud.

They catch your mail, kick your door, find you on silk road. Don't think it happens?
http://weirderweb.com/2013/02/26/florida-man-busted-silk-road-promptly-deletes-all-his-posts/

And, ask yourself, how many of these guys using TOR know you have to properly use TOR.

How hard is it for the Feds to set up an account, build a rep sending petty orders, then make huge offers and just go kick the door of the recipient?

It's an awesome idea, but the anonymity necessarily attracts people who will rip you off.

And if you don't think the Feds could mount a concerted effort utilizing the NSA's full capabilities if they wanted to ya might be craycray.

Your right I couldn't give ya the technical jargon for how TOR works but I have a good general idea, and furthermore it's not TOR I'm worried about, it's silkroad, how the fuck does anyone know it's not straight up CIA(worlds largest drug dealer)? You don't.

Dude, the only people busted selling drugs by these things is because the conduct business in real life or also accept something as stupid as Western Union as alternative payment. You think the feds are allowed to set up an account and SHIP DRUGS TO PEOPLE TO BUST THEM?! are you fucking kidding me man. The feds are not allowed to ship drugs to people to arrest them. You guys have so much false info. My friend in the USA has used SilkRoad to buy anything from weed to other powders I won't mention here and has never been ripped off once! Because of there escrow service, you actually do not even release payment until you RECEIVE the goods and if you do not receive them SR gives you a full refund (out of the vendors pocket) and since it is like Ebay, it is SO easy to find sellers with high feedback ratings and customers are required to leave feedback on how the transaction went, stealth of shipping and quality of product. There is also the SR forum that you can do research on to make sure you are ordering from a legit person, and it costs money to vend on there so it's not profitable at all for scammers as they get banned as soon as they are outed. My friend has ordered things from many different countries and they all get through....
 

unspoken

Member
Honestly I did see the ex drug cop guy say a good way to test for cops is to ask them to bring you a joint and then leave. Supposedly they can't give you something like that and let you leave because they are putting the greater public at risk. You could turn around and sell the joint or whatever. Sure they could have a different set of rules for taking down sr because they REALLY don't like it.
 

Hemphrey Bogart

Active member
Veteran
Here is what I think about bitcoins...and I could be wrong, but...

Bitcoins are like a digital envelope. They facilitate anonymous, fee free transactions, between two points/people.

The thing I don't understand is why anyone except speculators even cares about how much bitcoins are worth day to day.

The reason I say that is, it sounds like most bitcoin people are just using them as a digital delivery system as opposed to a store of value. You got some dollars, you convert them to bitcoins and send them off to wherever for free. When they arrive, they get converted back to dollars or whatever other fiat currency you need and you can spend the fiat money on stuff. Is that correct?

If so, why would you care about the "value" of bitcoins? I think it's the free and anonymous nature of the transaction that matters to most consumers who would like to use them...the "value" of a bitcoin is more a concern for the speculator, no?

Until retailers start accepting them, they are good for speculation and for sending money from here to there (anon and for free) and not much else.



HB.
 

mean mr.mustard

I Pass Satellites
Veteran
From what I can gather is the entire country seems to have gathered an intimate knowledge of economics and investment banking all in the last five years.

Seems pretty simple to me... everybody's a speculator.

That's what I'm speculating.
 

Stoner4Life

Medicinal Advocate
ICMag Donor
Veteran
bitcoins will become legitimate when they become liquid. I'm in the process of purchasing some now and it is a complete goat fuck that has left the worst possible taste in my mouth for this "currency". Somebody is making a lot of money and it is just another shitbird deal for everyone else.

I found the post below in your other thread mpd, you couldn't buy bitcoins on 3/18; and now we know why. the fuckers hoarding them, the supposedly legit servers were NOT done manipulating the market on them yet.

I didn't know that getting bitcoins was such a PITA. I went to send an international wire to mtgox.com to buy some bitcoins so I could go ahead and make some purchases on Silk Road and there was a SNAFU and now I am waiting on the company so I can send them this wire. What b.s.! Has anyone else had problems with bitcoins?


why would they sell something on 3/18 knowing they were driving the prices up above $120; on 3/18 the price was $55 or 60, half of what they're charging today.


still think that bitcoins are the coolest thing since sliced bread? please consider that the tactics described above have resulted in a 16 day delay in brother mpd getting meds for his wife and because they're selfish pricks his money will now buy less than 1/2 the meds it could have 16 days ago.

If he still hasn't gotten his 'coin' then that's a 19 day delay.


 

TheArchitect

Member
Veteran
Straight up I'd send miss mpd meds myself for free, but that's against tou.



FTR robbie I'm not junking your posts. You may be right about the details of how bitcoin works, but you are glaringly ignorant when it comes to money and economics.
 

megayields

Grower of Connoisseur herb's.
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Straight up I'd send miss mpd meds myself for free, but that's against tou.



FTR robbie I'm not junking your posts. You may be right about the details of how bitcoin works, but you are glaringly ignorant when it comes to money and economics.

Amen!
 

FlowerFarmer

Well-known member
Veteran
People laughed at a "friend of a friend of a friend" when he bought a thousand coins at 2 bucks each. Who is laughing now?

Those who get in late are typically the hurt the most when the bubble pops.

I can't believe more of you guys haven't started to conduct business with these things, there were 90 bucks two days ago then yesterday over $120 and they are going to keep going up no matter what.
Famous last words. If something can go from $90 to $120 in two days then it can certainly go from $130 to $100 in even shorter time.

Not good for the person wants to conduct business in these. Not good for the speculator who thinks they are going to keep going up no matter what, and buys at any price.

$1000 turned into bitcoins = 7.69 bitcoins?
That person turns around while browsing for seeds to spend his new currency.. smokes a bowl.. looks back at the screen and his bitcoins are now worth $100 instead of the $135 he purchased them for. That person just lost $200+ in a moments sell-off. And that is only $1000. Think about the business whom wants to transact much larger amounts. Think about those receiving lots of payments of bitcoins and hasn't converted them to a more stable currency. They take a royal hit in any slightest correction.

Pretty crappy currency. Way too volatile due to all of this recent speculation. Again, i'd argue the majority of people are NOT buying bitcoins to transact anonymously online. They are buying them as a speculative investment because of all the hype. They merely hoping they go up so that can turn them back into USD/cash. Once that starts happening.. down down they go.


I don't think bitcoins are doomed to fail, but I think current and new speculators are going to realize at a point that they are paying way too much for their bitcoins. Given the small market, one larger scale holder can dump a load and cause a price shake up... causing others to sell..

Before you know it bitcoin is back down at a more realistic $15-30 value.



I can understand most pro bitcoin people are excited due to the massive run-up. If the majority of people bought bitcoins because they saw the benefits of a decentralized global currency I'd have a much better view of them, but I don't think that is the case. Too many uneducated buying them trying to make fast cash. This will most always result in a crash.


For what its worth. I think bitcoins are currently in a bubble on top of true increase in demand. After a correction I think their value will continue to climb. Buy on the pullbacks is my suggestion, but not right now.

gold & silver = real money and bitcoins for digital currency to transact in. I can get on board with that. Fuck the dollar. We know its going to continue to lose value... that is 100% a given.
 
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powerrobbie

If I were to buy coins right now I could do it completly annoymously and have them within an hour or two in my wallet DO NOT USE MT.gox. they take SO long to get you your coins because you need to prove who you are, which defeats the whole purpose if you want to spend the currency on SR or other "dark net" drugs sets....If you want to use them just to buy coins to invest in I still want not use them because it can take weeks to get coins and there customer service sucks so bad because they have so much traffic and they are based in japan...
 

unspoken

Member
If you are going to buy btc for an "investment" you might as well go to vegas or buy scratch offs. They would be more fun.
 

Hemphrey Bogart

Active member
Veteran
From what I can gather is the entire country seems to have gathered an intimate knowledge of economics and investment banking all in the last five years.

I don't know about the entire country, but it does seem like finance and economics have become the topics du jour in recent years.

When I was studying for my undergrad degree in Econ, I didn't have very many people to talk to about economic matters. Now, it seems like everyone is interested in the "dismal science."

It's about time too!

HB.
 
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