Everybody a breeder ?
- Thread starter silverhazefiend
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What are the known dominance traits? I've seen people speak of them here and and there but is anyone keep record of what they have found to be a dominate trait? Perhaps people look at this problem two different ways.
One way is to lock down a very specific set of genes, doing a fine detail work creating a stable strain that is repeatable and certainly needed.
Another way is to start breeding as much as different strains as possible searching out for what does stay as dominate. Basically what nature would do, just alot faster. Each successive round you are keeping the information to build a table of known dominate traits. This information would be invaluable to anyone looking to do "breeding" in the future.
Both solve a problem that is needed. I just wonder how many are doing the later.
One way is to lock down a very specific set of genes, doing a fine detail work creating a stable strain that is repeatable and certainly needed.
Another way is to start breeding as much as different strains as possible searching out for what does stay as dominate. Basically what nature would do, just alot faster. Each successive round you are keeping the information to build a table of known dominate traits. This information would be invaluable to anyone looking to do "breeding" in the future.
Both solve a problem that is needed. I just wonder how many are doing the later.
Dave I was speaking to GMT re allard but there is a passage ther that is relevant to this last post. Selfing is approxately 3times more intensive than full sib mating, being that there arer no extra bonus point for going slow (after all, we are not slow cooking tritip) there is zero justification other than hebi jeebi's you can't explain, to stick to M/f selection methods.
Im quite invested for sure Tom...sorry if it doesnt come off that way..there is a way to put up or shut up sorta speak,...
I'll shut up and go from there...but I am working lines and will have something to put up indeed...maybe that will give a better impression of my own time with these plants...keep crackin skulls man..thnx again
and I do have questions cause even tho Ive read a bit on the topic myself what Ive observed is not always shown true to that...
I do have a idea tho...and I'll study up and read back on the rest..
thnx for the time..
Far as what is a Breeder...
When phenom expression can vary just by method and enviro I'd say theres so many variables it could be endless...But a stable consistent enviro with a skilled hand can produce proper if great genetics are avail to them..
Broken down if you know the lines its more than half the battle..
I'll always stick to studying the plants and not sweating the math as much...
FOE20
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phenom is like what a baseball player, what is phenom? Where did you get that word, you mean phenotype right? There is no such thing as a stable environment (enviro? pull your fucking baggy pants up!) environment always changes. Our job, is to find genotypes thate produce outstanding phenotypes in a broad range of enviroments, right? So just say that, let's give it the fucking respect it deserves shall we? That graph you posted, this is mendelian genetics, it is the bain of my existance, it's like the fork, but you haven't even looked at the pie you're fixin to eat. It means almost nothing as genetics pertain to drug cannabis. While it is true that all genetic theories are based on and revolve around mendelian genetics, they serve more to confuse than anything else it seems.
it's page 169 Dave, I am sure of that https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=133674
copy page 169 for us here and then come back and make an intelligent argument for your m/f selction methods..
copy page 169 for us here and then come back and make an intelligent argument for your m/f selction methods..
damn tom you scare me, wish i knew as much as you have forgot. ive spent my whole life growing and not understanding a damn thing,
I ain't breeding that way Tom, everyone else is so to be different I'm doing it Text book,
Using dialled analysis & (ANOVA) I already have done more than most people will ever textbook style I have done Line x tester analysis, I can do a test cross and tell you what's in the achenes.
I like the male Tom, I don't care for the S or R plant generation, I'll admit if that is where I was looking things would be slower on that side of the genome. I could add some spice to the mix but there is enough nice female at this time. I'm breeding sustainable synthetic lines with predictable desirable genotypes all in 1 room Tom, all highly advanced stuff too apparently.
I agree that to breed a filial generation between an s3 female with my males would achieve a partial loss in line fitness, it may add a degree of adequate fixable genetic traits. Thus producing better hybrids with a Top-cross male.
Could you explain why the selfed generation is so good Please?
I'm not going to copy that page 169 tonight Tom but I can get it done tomorrow. 5% is all I can do. You guys will have to buy the rest!
lazy, here guys...
The most useful measure of homozygosity is the inbreeding coefficient, F. This coefficient takes a value near zero in most large random-mating populations, and the coefficient increases toward unity under sustained genetic assortive mating. Self-fertilization (one individual in each generation in each family) leads to very rapid increases in homozygosity. Starting with a heterozygote (F=0.50), F takes the values 0.75, 0.875, 0.9375, 0.9688, 0.9844, 0.9922, ... in successive generations of selfing, thus exceeding 0.90 in the third generation. Under continued mating of 2 individuals per family (full sibs) each generation, F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the eighth generation. With continued mating of 4 individuals per family (double first cousins), F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the seventeenth generation and rates of increase in F with 8 individuals per family (quadruple second cousins) and 16 individuals per family (octuple third cousins) are much slower yet. The rate of increase in F is so slow with more than 16 mating individuals per family per generation that such matings are of essentially no consequence in concentrating favorable alleles in selection programs in outcrossing species. It is therefore not at all surprising that breeders of plant species nearly always choose schemes featuring very close inbreeding. Selfing schemes (one parent/generation) are by far the most common in breeding outcrossing plants, and the usual goal is to develop numerous highly homozygous lines that are first evaluated by top crossing to identify lines with good general combining ability, followed by testing specific combinations of pairs of lines to identify the very few pairs that have the potential to produce truly excellent single-cross hybrids
The most useful measure of homozygosity is the inbreeding coefficient, F. This coefficient takes a value near zero in most large random-mating populations, and the coefficient increases toward unity under sustained genetic assortive mating. Self-fertilization (one individual in each generation in each family) leads to very rapid increases in homozygosity. Starting with a heterozygote (F=0.50), F takes the values 0.75, 0.875, 0.9375, 0.9688, 0.9844, 0.9922, ... in successive generations of selfing, thus exceeding 0.90 in the third generation. Under continued mating of 2 individuals per family (full sibs) each generation, F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the eighth generation. With continued mating of 4 individuals per family (double first cousins), F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the seventeenth generation and rates of increase in F with 8 individuals per family (quadruple second cousins) and 16 individuals per family (octuple third cousins) are much slower yet. The rate of increase in F is so slow with more than 16 mating individuals per family per generation that such matings are of essentially no consequence in concentrating favorable alleles in selection programs in outcrossing species. It is therefore not at all surprising that breeders of plant species nearly always choose schemes featuring very close inbreeding. Selfing schemes (one parent/generation) are by far the most common in breeding outcrossing plants, and the usual goal is to develop numerous highly homozygous lines that are first evaluated by top crossing to identify lines with good general combining ability, followed by testing specific combinations of pairs of lines to identify the very few pairs that have the potential to produce truly excellent single-cross hybrids
D
DryNobBob
Dude, you have a way of settin shit straight I really dig. A man can read Hyb, DJ, bunch of others, but when it comes from you, it seems more real, but again, Im just a newb student of the plant. I think the problem in general is, as in life right now, nobody wants the truth staring them in their face, they would rather hear the truth, fit it to their perspective, then expouse that as the truth, and to some who get the truth, this perception trick to make a man's theory's fit is a bunch of horseshit. I dug math and calculus and all of it, so your maths' make sense to me. Thanks
continued....but you guys don't fuck with gynoecious selection programs, but you can;t tell us why either, I am dumbfounded. There is no extra bonus points for taking longer to do something that you can accomplish more rapidly, but you cling, you linger, you god damn hold on to everything you from time to time find dispicable, blah, fem seeds have nothing to do with it, we are talking about shortcuts and proven science, wtf, how dare you cling to antiquated techniques without explaining yourselves?
hey there what is the second book? just allard comes up
i have a copy of allard (i was too much of a cheepskate to buy it at that price so i ordered it from the library and photocopied it)
interesting to read the discussion as always,
VG
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