Under or Over watering?

[FOE20]

yea Iso they look like they are wilting as they should...Can we see the very top growth tho?....is it standing more?...It looks like you have dried out the room plenty and agree now its time to water/feed!...
If the container is 2gal then use aprox 3-4gal of water/mix...
Make a decent batch of your nutes at 1/2 to 3/4's strength of the BioCanna...
Now Distilled water is actually Very Pure...Almost To Pure as it doesnt hold a Buffer or pH range well..Theres nothing in the water for it to buffer...
So Add your nutes, then only a bit of the Rhizotonic....sounds like a good product..
but I agree the plants look very dry now...
Did the medium pull away from the sides of the container?.....
Or is it just dried out and feels like a stiff brillow pad?....
Basically is the medium compacted or not?......Compacted will act like dry Mud and be a bit dense...
brillow would be a wooly dry fluffy look...
The compacted ver would need to be soaked and possibly agitated a bit to loosen up the compacted area...so the water reaches the innermost mass...
The more fluffy rootmass would be similar but you want to flush more than soak it...
If the zone seems compacted, loosen it up before you soak it...if its dry and a bit fluffy and really "light to feel" when you pic the container up just saturate slowly, and very well till you see 1x run off....
Make sure before any of this, that the pH of the Mix-(water/nutes combined) is in the mid 5 pH range...or least close to 5.8...
do you have a pH meter?...if not just add a few good drops of pH down after the mix is made...Some nutrients and additives can act like a pH up so we want to make sure that isnt going to happen...We want a nice amount of nutes, plus the micro amount of Rhizo at a lower pH to start, allowing a wider pH range flux from between 5.6-6.5..
and more avail nutrients and minerals in the ranges that the products need to be at in order for the plant to Up take them...
but sorry for the delay and hope were still in good time...
build up of Salts in Soil will dehydrate a plant fast...So even tho they look thirsty they are but don't just water...make sure you get run off as we want to try and remove these built up salts as we revive the root bios...So clean water/nutes should be great for them right now...Keep the nute level Low if your not sure...Bu agreed teh lower yellowing says that your plant needs food as well, But this may of Only Been Locked out!....so dont go to heavy on Nutes thinking theres No nutrients in the mix...
Theres is its just their locked Out...but hows the Top look?....all the tops?....are any or all having any responses at all?....what has changed for the good or bad?...any change at all beside lower wilting?.......stick with it and I'll check back in by later tonight....
keep rollin
FOE20

 

[isoprop]

yea Iso they look like they are wilting as they should...Can we see the very top growth tho?....is it standing more?...It looks like you have dried out the room plenty and agree now its time to water/feed!...
If the container is 2gal then use aprox 3-4gal of water/mix...
Make a decent batch of your nutes at 1/2 to 3/4's strength of the BioCanna...
Now Distilled water is actually Very Pure...Almost To Pure as it doesnt hold a Buffer or pH range well..Theres nothing in the water for it to buffer...
So Add your nutes, then only a bit of the Rhizotonic....sounds like a good product..
but I agree the plants look very dry now...
Did the medium pull away from the sides of the container?.....
Or is it just dried out and feels like a stiff brillow pad?....
Basically is the medium compacted or not?......Compacted will act like dry Mud and be a bit dense...
brillow would be a wooly dry fluffy look...
The compacted ver would need to be soaked and possibly agitated a bit to loosen up the compacted area...so the water reaches the innermost mass...
The more fluffy rootmass would be similar but you want to flush more than soak it...
If the zone seems compacted, loosen it up before you soak it...if its dry and a bit fluffy and really "light to feel" when you pic the container up just saturate slowly, and very well till you see 1x run off....
Make sure before any of this, that the pH of the Mix-(water/nutes combined) is in the mid 5 pH range...or least close to 5.8...
do you have a pH meter?...if not just add a few good drops of pH down after the mix is made...Some nutrients and additives can act like a pH up so we want to make sure that isnt going to happen...We want a nice amount of nutes, plus the micro amount of Rhizo at a lower pH to start, allowing a wider pH range flux from between 5.6-6.5..
and more avail nutrients and minerals in the ranges that the products need to be at in order for the plant to Up take them...
but sorry for the delay and hope were still in good time...
build up of Salts in Soil will dehydrate a plant fast...So even tho they look thirsty they are but don't just water...make sure you get run off as we want to try and remove these built up salts as we revive the root bios...So clean water/nutes should be great for them right now...Keep the nute level Low if your not sure...Bu agreed teh lower yellowing says that your plant needs food as well, But this may of Only Been Locked out!....so dont go to heavy on Nutes thinking theres No nutrients in the mix...
Theres is its just their locked Out...but hows the Top look?....all the tops?....are any or all having any responses at all?....what has changed for the good or bad?...any change at all beside lower wilting?.......stick with it and I'll check back in by later tonight....
keep rollin
FOE20

Hi FOE and sorry for the delay. The flush was done yesterday evening following step by step your instructions but i didn't have that much distilled water so i used 15lt of mix (distilled water + biovega at 1/3 + rhizotonic at 1/2) for all 5 plants(let's say 3liters per plant/pot), i suppose isn't enough so i was wondering if can i have a second run as soon as they dry out? The medium was fluffy and very light to feel and pulled away very much from the sides of the containers so i watered them slowly trying to saturate it as much as possible. I did have a 1x runoff for each pot and the PH was adjusted at approx 5.5 (yes i have a digital PH meter). In the night there was temps around 26°C (80°F) while the RH is very very low around 32/38% but they seems to have recovered al ittle bit, look at the attached pics. Now, what am I supposed to do? Let them stay with that higher temps and low RH or try to raise the RH and lower the temps? Or what else?

 

[isoprop]

I forgot to mention tha what you see in the pics actually are the top growth because these are LST'd plants. Thanks!

 

[FOE20]

kewl Iso...only the very top does look like its responding to me...would you agree?...
just goin by all the details and that bit of response I would feed at a higher rate...
Kushes love Nitrogen IME....and I think you said these were kushes so think the pH is starting to take hold and if its dry then theres plenty of air...
So lets feed them more...Up the amount of Nutes and lower the amount of Rhizo to very little...I would almost Double the amount of nutes as now you may just have very starving plants...But that little bit of active top growth says something even tho very subtle...Keep pH low for now as your doing with each feeding...It will take a few feeding with Cleaner water to help remove excess Tap-residual and re-buffer the root bios...
So just keep away from Tap water...do whatever you can to avoid using Tap alone...Cut it with distilled, RO or even Spring water...
You can get 5gal of RO at most grocery stores and use that to Cut your Tap water...
I highly suggest if you are going to use Tap water to get a De-chlorinating additive like whats used in Ponds...or even Fresh Water fish aquariums...
I use whats known as Sodium Bisulfite..This is used to purify liquids for bottling..
But some type of tap water treatment would be a must if your going to use any type of hard Tap water..
Hope this is all starting to come together in a way...any thoughts or concerns just say the word and we'll go into detail...
FOE20

 

[xmobotx]

i respectfully disagree

seeing indications of overfert & based on the OPs ec; i think the plants would benefit from a couple water only before feeding & keeping nuts down until recovery

also; chlorine will off-gas and dissipate if you just let a bucket of water sit for a couple hours {to be sure} bubbling or stirring wont hurt either

his concern is more w/ the precipitates in the water

nonetheless; its literally been since before the big foxfarms boom and these canna-specific chem nuts being introduced that i did any chem gardening {w/ like peters and schultz ~lol} so take my considerations w/ a grain of salt {literally}

 

[isoprop]

kewl Iso...only the very top does look like its responding to me...would you agree?...
just goin by all the details and that bit of response I would feed at a higher rate...
Kushes love Nitrogen IME....and I think you said these were kushes so think the pH is starting to take hold and if its dry then theres plenty of air...
So lets feed them more...Up the amount of Nutes and lower the amount of Rhizo to very little...I would almost Double the amount of nutes as now you may just have very starving plants...But that little bit of active top growth says something even tho very subtle...Keep pH low for now as your doing with each feeding...It will take a few feeding with Cleaner water to help remove excess Tap-residual and re-buffer the root bios...
So just keep away from Tap water...do whatever you can to avoid using Tap alone...Cut it with distilled, RO or even Spring water...
You can get 5gal of RO at most grocery stores and use that to Cut your Tap water...
I highly suggest if you are going to use Tap water to get a De-chlorinating additive like whats used in Ponds...or even Fresh Water fish aquariums...
I use whats known as Sodium Bisulfite..This is used to purify liquids for bottling..
But some type of tap water treatment would be a must if your going to use any type of hard Tap water..
Hope this is all starting to come together in a way...any thoughts or concerns just say the word and we'll go into detail...
FOE20

Hi FOE yes they're Kushes and i think they're recovering, pics attached...what do you think? They seems to be much better than this morning, aren't them? Don't worry i am about to buy a RO water filter so i will never use again just tap water, at least i will mix 50/50 with RO water...anyway top & bottom growth are responding very well..did you mean to give them another feeding right now?

i respectfully disagree

seeing indications of overfert & based on the OPs ec; i think the plants would benefit from a couple water only before feeding & keeping nuts down until recovery

also; chlorine will off-gas and dissipate if you just let a bucket of water sit for a couple hours {to be sure} bubbling or stirring wont hurt either

his concern is more w/ the precipitates in the water

nonetheless; its literally been since before the big foxfarms boom and these canna-specific chem nuts being introduced that i did any chem gardening {w/ like peters and schultz ~lol} so take my considerations w/ a grain of salt {literally}

Do you mean to not feed them but just water?

 

[xmobotx]

what i have been saying this whole time is;

like how you alternate water only w/ feeding? do 2 water only{s} then gradually {starting w/ like 1/4 strength} re-introduce nuts

couple that w/ trying for 'correct moisture levels'

notice the wrinkled appearance of the fan leaves? that is over-fert and the over-fert coupled w/ overwatering {leaves not wilted but hanging down} is leading to 'lockout' which presents as multiple differing deficiencies

so a; u have been feeding them too much and b; u have been watering them too much

this really is as simple as 'water them less and feed them less'

 

[FOE20]

xmo I hear ya...agreed for the most part...although Tap water will prod the same result being Lock outs...whether caused by nutrient or Tap its the same look....I do not feel they are over fed at all..
I believe they never got any Nutrients to start soon as he started using tap water...in turn are his results....I believe if he uses your suggestion they will continue to starve...and why I came back saying he might want to feed them instead of Lowering the amount of nutes..
and Iso could prove it either way by trying both our suggestions on diff plants....I just pref my kushes to be deeper and more lush as they are mountain varieties...

Iso yea to me I def see improvement...the 3rd pic you posted really shows standard angle of growth as in rigid and vertical and not drooping as much...
N has been not avail because they've out of pH range and mineral over dosed with Tap water....
I'd say clean up the lower growth...remove anything that looks over wilted and any leaf rust margins, burnt or yellowing foliage..
Continue on the same process...Avoid tap, cut as much as possible...Stick to a good amount of Nutes and make sure its pH adjusted to or between 5.5 to 5.8...
As they dry out after each water/feeding they will start to rise in pH and allow for a wider range of uptake over all..
Just make sure you cut back on Tap use as much as you can....and avoid any Calcium!...no Cal/Mag at all for a while m8....
If your going to use Tap fill a reservoir of some type so you can let it sit out...Ive used tupper wares or lg garbage cans..

lastly I show 3 variations of Kushes in the first image...We now need to get them to reach this level of Nutrients..I fed my kushes well so instead of sticking to a No#...Just feed a bit more each time...
or give 1x 1000ppm Feeding(heavy feeding)..and then Water....water...Feed....water water Feed....
Use the method that will suit you best and let me knwo what you feel...keep rollin
FOE20

 

[xmobotx]

so the high ec is from the water issue and not excess nuts

i can see that too then

 

[FOE20]

exactly.....my tap water is 300-400+ppm....and none of that ppm is good for plants..
I avoid distilled cause its actually to clean...Good water is key...proper pH range is 2nd par method(soil, water or air root system)..and amount of avail nutrients is 3rd...
seems to work well under any method..
clean pure water has low to no buffer so its effected mostly by the medium its used in...
So first we got to remove what the tap water has instilled...or least thin it out best we can...then instil a proper safe Water @ best pH with a solid nutrient, regimen...
kiss....which means "keep it simple,..stupid"...
but I pref to say....."keep it stupid,..simple"....
FOE20

 

[isoprop]

xmo I hear ya...agreed for the most part...although Tap water will prod the same result being Lock outs...whether caused by nutrient or Tap its the same look....I do not feel they are over fed at all..
I believe they never got any Nutrients to start soon as he started using tap water...in turn are his results....I believe if he uses your suggestion they will continue to starve...and why I came back saying he might want to feed them instead of Lowering the amount of nutes..
and Iso could prove it either way by trying both our suggestions on diff plants....I just pref my kushes to be deeper and more lush as they are mountain varieties...

Iso yea to me I def see improvement...the 3rd pic you posted really shows standard angle of growth as in rigid and vertical and not drooping as much...
N has been not avail because they've out of pH range and mineral over dosed with Tap water....
I'd say clean up the lower growth...remove anything that looks over wilted and any leaf rust margins, burnt or yellowing foliage..
Continue on the same process...Avoid tap, cut as much as possible...Stick to a good amount of Nutes and make sure its pH adjusted to or between 5.5 to 5.8...
As they dry out after each water/feeding they will start to rise in pH and allow for a wider range of uptake over all..
Just make sure you cut back on Tap use as much as you can....and avoid any Calcium!...no Cal/Mag at all for a while m8....
If your going to use Tap fill a reservoir of some type so you can let it sit out...Ive used tupper wares or lg garbage cans..

lastly I show 3 variations of Kushes in the first image...We now need to get them to reach this level of Nutrients..I fed my kushes well so instead of sticking to a No#...Just feed a bit more each time...
or give 1x 1000ppm Feeding(heavy feeding)..and then Water....water...Feed....water water Feed....
Use the method that will suit you best and let me knwo what you feel...keep rollin
FOE20

Yes i agree with FOE they had a very little amount of nutrients since they born so it's pretty unusual they suffer from an overfert...the problem was in the water that caused a lock out. I will never use again just tap water, or i will mix it with RO water. Ok i will clean up the lower growth as soon as possible but should I flush them again as soon as the soil dries up with the same method I used before rising the nuts percentage? Or just feed them with more nuts? When they will be fully recovered i will stick with your suggestion: feed - water - water - feed..later i will post some pics update..i will ever keep on rolling m8

 

[isoprop]

Pics update

Pics update

Hello guys pics update, what do you think about them? Should I flush them again?

 

[FOE20]

hey Iso...color looks better but still look a bit out of pH range.....can you get a reading on the ppm/pH of your run off man?....I still just feel the pH range is locked by residual Tap use...
I would on the first 1, 2, 3 just water with a good lower pH range...
and maybe still feed the 4, 5th ones a bit more....now this may sound extreme but try a 5.0 starting pH this time...so if you used 5.5 last time..make this lower to 5.0...
I dont think any Rhizo would hurt either so you could add a bit of that as well...
when I see the sort of yellow margins, edges like a few of them show this says to me the Calcium/Chlorine are still having effect...
Which if you use Pure or Clean water it will be hard to counter this till its evacuated and all rebalanced...I think your getting closer nute wise as said color looks ok...
but they still look droopy and should be more vigorous and vibrant...
not to worry tho as cannabis is a Acid loving plant so dont be shy...IMO even a 4.5 pH start range will not hurt your situation...it will naturally flux Up fast as it dehydrates anyway...So we want a lower pH and the mix to stay moist a bit longer...keep your feeding range about where you have been and just concentrate on this pH range for now...
let me know how that sounds to you and keep rollin
FOE20

 

[isoprop]

hey Iso...color looks better but still look a bit out of pH range.....can you get a reading on the ppm/pH of your run off man?....I still just feel the pH range is locked by residual Tap use...
I would on the first 1, 2, 3 just water with a good lower pH range...
and maybe still feed the 4, 5th ones a bit more....now this may sound extreme but try a 5.0 starting pH this time...so if you used 5.5 last time..make this lower to 5.0...
I dont think any Rhizo would hurt either so you could add a bit of that as well...
when I see the sort of yellow margins, edges like a few of them show this says to me the Calcium/Chlorine are still having effect...
Which if you use Pure or Clean water it will be hard to counter this till its evacuated and all rebalanced...I think your getting closer nute wise as said color looks ok...
but they still look droopy and should be more vigorous and vibrant...
not to worry tho as cannabis is a Acid loving plant so dont be shy...IMO even a 4.5 pH start range will not hurt your situation...it will naturally flux Up fast as it dehydrates anyway...So we want a lower pH and the mix to stay moist a bit longer...keep your feeding range about where you have been and just concentrate on this pH range for now...
let me know how that sounds to you and keep rollin
FOE20

Hi FOE i flushed again yesterday evening before reading your message, and guess what? I flushed them with distilled water at ph 5.0 with nice dosage of Rhizo + 1/2 strength dosage of BioVega, the runoff was ph 7.0 the first run and ph 6.2 the second run...take a look at the pic i attach, they look much much better, not wilting but the pale green of the leaves suggest me a N deficency while burnt tips suggest me an overtfert..what's going on? They are on the 8th week of veg stage, do you suggest to fully recover them before switching to 12/12? Thanks a lot again and again and again I think I will roll one of afghani hash

 

[FOE20]

props to you for staying on board the options Iso...think your starting to feel the plant rather than just follow no#s....I can see a good improvement indeed but lets stick with the plan and not get to heavy handed with nutrients just yet...
just because they may show a lack or N def it doesn't mean that theres not enough in the Mix...It may be there and still just out of preferred range...
I'd still keep doing what your doing and not push to hard just yet...Lets go slow and easy and next time drop pH even more as suggested...We want the run off to show about 5.8...this way as it dehydrates the pH will naturally rise and work its way thru 5.8-6.5...
making a wide range of uptake for the ladies...
Just remember were not locked to a set pH yet....pH is the range we must find what makes the plant most happy...at te proper pH range for the variety the Plant will be much more able to uptake all available nutrients...
If your really worried about the amount of N or nutes than I'd say try to make the nutes strong for the ones that look the most pale overall...then before feeding the others cut the nutes by a 1/3rd...or by 1/2 to thin it out before you flush the deeper colored plants....
Do you see a darker Green center to each fan blade?....This means that N is getting back Into the foliage...If you have some not showing a slightly darker center than Increase the amount of N or overall nute level...
Another simple trick is to raise your lights a bit for a few days as the less light will be easier on the plants as they recover and they will green back up much quicker...
just know you have other ways to control N beside nutrients....Simple adjustments can do great things for plants so try them and see how it works before going back to trying to raise the nute levels...
another trick is to pinch the lower center stalk...like cracking a knuckle...Do not bend or crimp the main stalk just simply roll slightly between fingers till it crunches a bit..
this will redirect the pathways and help the plant distribute the nutrients more evenly throughout the plant...also it will activate auxins which will help the entire recovery process at this point...if you only pinch tops or bend tops the auxins will concentrate more on those...We want a more even distribution of the entire plant for now till they look evenly - healthy...
Then you can train/top/sog/super crop or whatever works best...keep rollin
FOE20

 

[offthehook]

That's a nice recovery Isoprop.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FOE20 again"

What a great informative post.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

... chlorine will off-gas and dissipate if you just let a bucket of water sit for a couple hours {to be sure} bubbling or stirring wont hurt either

This is true, but more and more water districts are using chloramine which doesn't readily off gas.

 

[isoprop]

props to you for staying on board the options Iso...think your starting to feel the plant rather than just follow no#s....I can see a good improvement indeed but lets stick with the plan and not get to heavy handed with nutrients just yet...
just because they may show a lack or N def it doesn't mean that theres not enough in the Mix...It may be there and still just out of preferred range...
I'd still keep doing what your doing and not push to hard just yet...Lets go slow and easy and next time drop pH even more as suggested...We want the run off to show about 5.8...this way as it dehydrates the pH will naturally rise and work its way thru 5.8-6.5...
making a wide range of uptake for the ladies...
Just remember were not locked to a set pH yet....pH is the range we must find what makes the plant most happy...at te proper pH range for the variety the Plant will be much more able to uptake all available nutrients...
If your really worried about the amount of N or nutes than I'd say try to make the nutes strong for the ones that look the most pale overall...then before feeding the others cut the nutes by a 1/3rd...or by 1/2 to thin it out before you flush the deeper colored plants....
Do you see a darker Green center to each fan blade?....This means that N is getting back Into the foliage...If you have some not showing a slightly darker center than Increase the amount of N or overall nute level...
Another simple trick is to raise your lights a bit for a few days as the less light will be easier on the plants as they recover and they will green back up much quicker...
just know you have other ways to control N beside nutrients....Simple adjustments can do great things for plants so try them and see how it works before going back to trying to raise the nute levels...
another trick is to pinch the lower center stalk...like cracking a knuckle...Do not bend or crimp the main stalk just simply roll slightly between fingers till it crunches a bit..
this will redirect the pathways and help the plant distribute the nutrients more evenly throughout the plant...also it will activate auxins which will help the entire recovery process at this point...if you only pinch tops or bend tops the auxins will concentrate more on those...We want a more even distribution of the entire plant for now till they look evenly - healthy...
Then you can train/top/sog/super crop or whatever works best...keep rollin
FOE20

Hi FOE you are right, i am starting to feel my ladie's needs instead of acting mechanically on them. I saw they showed me their need for another nice flush, and i tried to satisfy them with a little success..but attention please this was possible just thanks to your advices, everyone on this forum.... Ok i will stick to the plan and will give them less nutrients and drop the ph values till they'll show a nice dark green color of the leaves. First i will flush them all, and if i will see signs of N deficency again i will make an individual plant nutrients scheduling and will see how they react. Some of them have dark green veins, some not..i will adjust the nutrients based on this informations....nice advice. I will raise the light a little bit and see the reaction. Never tried supercropping before, this seems a good chance to start

That's a nice recovery Isoprop.

Thanks a lot m8!

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FOE20 again"

What a great informative post.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FOE20 again" sorry, what do you mean? I agree very informative post!

This is true, but more and more water districts are using chloramine which doesn't readily off gas.

Don't know about chloramine, I will stick to RO & tap water 50/50 in the future

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

"You must spread ... " This is the message you get if you've recently clicked the helpful post button for this person one too many times. Keeps people from playing games with the reputation/point system. So to say thanks you have to post a comment instead.

Water suppliers are switching to chloramine because it is more stable. If you get an annual water quality statement from your water district it should have that information. Otherwise you can call your water supplier and tell them you keep aquarium fish and need to know whether they're using chlorine or chloramine in the water.