Aliens, yay or nay?

[Anti]

you assume that knowing is a democratic thing though, and that's not true at all.

I do not assume that knowing is democratic. You may choose to believe in things without evidence. That's your business and I have no claim to it.

I CANNOT believe things without some evidence of their truth. That's just me.

I am not asking for peer-reviewed, published scientific papers as my only source of evidence. I would be willing to consider anything anyone puts forward. (Consider, not necessarily accept.)

some people believe in things neither you nor me have ever heard of and if we heard about them we'd be hesitant to believe; however, these people that do indeed believe in such things do so because they know a lot more about such things than we do.

Those people might be justified in their belief. They might not. If I am unqualified in that subject, I might not be the best judge of their competence. But that would also mean that *I* would *NOT* be justified in believing in the same subject matter without evidence, simply because I lack their experience/knowledge.

so again, knowledge of things, and subsequent belief originating from such knowledge in any particular thing is not democratic at all.

Never claimed it was. I merely stated that the time to BELIEVE is AFTER reviewing sufficient evidence, not before. Until such time that YOU have reviewed said evidence, there's no reason for YOU to believe it. Easy enough?

when it comes to aliens and ufos, just like in science, it's full of charlatans and snake-oil sellers; however, this does not dismisses the fact that there are certain truths behind it all.

It also does not CONFIRM the possibility that there may be certain truths behind it all.

 

[lost in a sea]

Who here is attempting to disprove aliens?

As Harry already pointed out, the burden of proof lies on the claimant. The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence must be.

no one can disprove aliens as in life outside earth because there is tons of life in the universe,, but you/i can disprove almost all of the stuff thrown in as alien caused,, which is why i dont agree with people that think aliens have been or are here on earth in the form of bipedal humanoids in saucers.. that whole concept could only be dreamt up by humans imo..

in any case you need to drop the persecution complex..

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

there is no way there is not aliens out in the universe some where. there is billions of stars in our galaxy, billions of galaxies in our galaxy cluster, and billions of galaxy clusters in a galaxy wall. the largest galaxy wall is only 1/60th the link of the known universe which is 99.9 percent higgs bosons aka dark matter/energy aka empty space, and it is still growing.

the scale of the universe 2.
from the smallest of the small to the largest of the large of what we know.
http://htwins.net/scale2/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjaGktVQdNg

"A Universe From Nothing" - Lawrence Krauss

Physicist Lawrence Krauss gives a talk on our current picture of the universe, how it will end, and how it could have come from nothing. Krauss is the author of many bestselling books on Physics and Cosmology. His newest book, which expands on this lecture can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothin..

 

[legalizeDK]

OK, I have to say, I'm just about on Antis side on this one.
I believe life, elsewhere in the universe is possible, even probable, just based on the vastness of the universe. To assume otherwise would be arrogant. However, to assume any species which had developed the capability for inter-stellar travel would be interested in us in any way other than the way we are interested in bugs and slugs is equally arrogant.
I have yet to see any evidence that we have been visited by aliens.
Someone a few pages back asked why should the believers have to prove anything, well that's how it works in science, the burden of proof falls upon the side making the assertion, remaining skeptical is not an assertion.
The U in UFO does not stand for "Ualiens", it stands for "Unidentified", the whole aliens thing has been a real boon to the super secret defense development industry. Many of the UFO sightings in the 60s and 70s were the Blackbird SR71, and this was repeated with the stealth bomber. Take a look at the SR71 and the stealth bomber, looking directly at it from the front, anyone could be forgiven for seeing a flying saucer. Think about the secret silent helicopters used on the Osama raid, nobody knew about those until the raid, and had one not crashed, we probably wouldn't know about them now.
Steven Hawking doesn't think we should be sending signals off into space pointing out that we exist and how to find us, because what happens when a technologically advanced group meets a "primitive" group, how has that always turned out amongst human beings on earth?. It is very likely that were such an advanced race to come visiting, the human race would be the Native Americans, the Aboriginal Australians etc, to the Aliens White Europeans.
I believe some people who have been "Abducted by aliens and experimented on", but I believe the abducters were much more likely to be their own governments or even private businesses/corporations.
Just to clarify, I believe life on other planets is probable, but aliens whizzing about scaring pilots, transmitting signals into peoples heads and doing anal probes is not probable.

I dont think it got anything to do with arrogance, i kind a get what you mean, but what do you an me know what intentions alien would have?

something are just really hard to prove take physics for example. tahe the higgs boson try proving that it existed without the LHC thats impossiple but it does not mean it doesn´t exist, so it easy for sceptics to dismiss the theory of aliens visiting cause nobody got af damn ufo to prove the theory

no doubt that some or a lot off the sightings are something else, but i have little doubt that all off them are misidentified

how can we possible know what they think or how they will act. thats kind of arrogant

can YOU prove your conspiracy theorys

 

[legalizeDK]

I am not asking for peer-reviewed, published, scientific papers as my only source of evidence. I would be willing to consider anything anyone puts forward. (Consider, not necessarily accept.)

Then please give an example of the kind of evidence you want

their are a lot of military documents that describe ufos i even think some one posted some in this thread

 

[Hash Zeppelin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade

Tardigrade

Tardigrades (commonly known as waterbears or moss piglets)[2] are small, water-dwelling, segmented animals with eight legs. They are notable for being one of the most complex of all known polyextremophiles. (An extremophile is an organism that can thrive in a physically or geochemically extreme condition that would be detrimental to most life on Earth.[3][4] A polyextremophile such as the Tardigrade is capable of thriving in a variety of extreme conditions, any one of which would be detrimental to most life on earth.)

Tardigrades can withstand temperatures from just above absolute zero to well above the boiling point of water. They can survive pressures greater than any found in the deepest ocean trenches and have lived through the vacuum of outer space. They can survive solar radiation, gamma radiation, ionic radiation— at doses hundreds of times higher than would kill a person. They can go without food or water for nearly 10 years, drying out to the point where they are 3% or less water, only to rehydrate, forage, and reproduce.[citation needed]

Usually, Tardigrades are 1 millimetre (0.039 in) long when they are fully grown. They are short and plump with 4 pairs of legs, each with 4-8 claws also known as "disks." The animals are prevalent in moss and lichen and, when collected, may be viewed under a very low-power microscope, making them accessible to the student or amateur scientist as well as the professional.[5][6]

Tardigrades form the phylum Tardigrada, part of the superphylum Ecdysozoa. It is an ancient group, with fossils dating from 530 million years ago, in the Cambrian period.[7] The first tardigrades were discovered by Johann August Ephraim Goeze in 1773. Since 1778, over 500 new tardigrade species have been found.

 

[Anti]

anyone who thinks us humans are the only intelligent life form out there is just fucking stupid.

Nobody in 41 pages of this thread has made such a suggestion.

 

[Anti]

no one can disprove aliens as in life outside earth because there is tons of life in the universe,, but you/i can disprove almost all of the stuff thrown in as alien caused,, which is why i dont agree with people that think aliens have been or are here on earth in the form of bipedal humanoids in saucers.. that whole concept could only be dreamt up by humans imo..

We're on the same page.

in any case you need to drop the persecution complex..

Thanks doc. You finally figured me out. I keep dreaming about your mother. What do you think it means?

 

[Anti]

Then please give an example of the kind of evidence you want

Are you asking me what kind of information would DEFINITIVELY PROVE alien contact to me? Or are you asking what kind of evidence I will be willing to consider?

I'm willing to consider just about anything. But if you claim you got it through a clairvoyant transmission, I'm going to ask you to demonstrate your clairvoyance in a double-blind scenario. Fair?

their are a lot of military documents that describe ufos i even think some one posted some in this thread

Let's say for the sake of argument that I am willing to accept these (thus far unseen) military documents at their word. Will that be proof of aliens? No. Because unidentified flying objects might be anything. This thread is not about whether people have seen things they cannot understand in the sky. This thread is about whether ALIENS are interacting with humans here on (or above) Earth.

Government documents stating that pilots saw something they have no experience of might LEND credibility to any photographic, film or physical evidence you might care to present, but documents about unidentified objects will not convince me of alien contact.

 

[legalizeDK]

Are you asking me what kind of information would DEFINITIVELY PROVE alien contact to me? Or are you asking what kind of evidence I will be willing to consider?

I'm willing to consider just about anything. But if you claim you got it through a clairvoyant transmission, I'm going to ask you to demonstrate your clairvoyance in a double-blind scenario. Fair?

Let's say for the sake of argument that I am willing to accept these (thus far unseen) military documents at their word. Will that be proof of aliens? No. Because unidentified flying objects might be anything. This thread is not about whether people have seen things they cannot understand in the sky. This thread is about whether ALIENS are interacting with humans here on (or above) Earth.

Government documents stating that pilots saw something they have no experience of might LEND credibility to any photographic, film or physical evidence you might care to present, but documents about unidentified objects will not convince me of alien contact.

Fair? yes

again give an example, because you say no need for peer ect... but military doc not enough. so plaese give an ex.

 

[Anti]

Fair? yes

again give an example, because you say no need for peer ect... but military doc not enough. so plaese give an ex.

I don't think you understood.

A military document that claims that somebody saw an UNIDENTIFIED object is NOT evidence of ALIENS.

It may be supportive of other evidence, but in and of itself, it is only evidence that the person dictating the document was unable to identify what they saw. If I can't identify it, that means I can't say "I know it was x" because unidentified doesn't mean "x" it means "?", right?

If you want to convince ME of aliens, you must show me something that could not be easier explained by man-made or terrestrial phenomena. To my knowledge, no such evidence exists, so I'm not sure I can provide you with a concrete example.

If you happen to have some alien technology (a piece of their ship) or can convince the aliens to come and contact me personally, then that would be very convincing.

 

[legalizeDK]

no example?

there are documents evaluating the phenomena not just a statement from millitary personal

i think you put yourself in a position where you cant go wrong by hidding behind the evidence rant about the deffinitions of evidence ect, so you can shoot down allmost everything. youdont need peer review but wont accept statements from people.
thats why i want you to give me an example.
you keep saying the same thing over and over, and many of us get your point. but it makes it seem like your in this discussion just to well for the the discussion it self.
and you keep dodging when hempcat and others got valid points

 

[stasis]

The odds of there being NO other sentient life forms out there are infinitessimal.

 

[Anti]

no example?

If you want to convince ME of aliens, you must show me something that could not be easier explained by man-made or terrestrial phenomena. To my knowledge, no such evidence exists, so I'm not sure I can provide you with a concrete example.

If you happen to have some alien technology (a piece of their ship) or can convince the aliens to come and contact me personally, then that would be very convincing.

I gave a couple of examples of things I would accept already. I said I'd even accept telepathic revelation if you could demonstrate telepathy! I'm willing to look at whatever you consider THE BEST evidence. How much more open can I be?

Don't bring me things that kinda sorta support your hypothesis. Bring me the BEST of what you've got.

there are documents evaluating the phenomena not just a statement from millitary personal

Could we stop talking about documents and start posting them up if you want me to consider them?

i think you put yourself in a position where you cant go wrong by hidding behind the evidence rant about the deffinitions of evidence ect, so you can shoot down allmost everything. youdont need peer review but wont accept statements from people.

You still don't get it. What I was saying to you was that evidence of UFOs is not necessarily evidence of ALIENS. Because by definition UFOs are unidentified. You seem to keep missing that point.

thats why i want you to give me an example.

I gave you examples. I said (for instance) that a piece of alien technology or an actual alien would be great evidence.

If you want to say that some guy is channeling aliens, can we demonstrate this? Can the aliens tell us something that we currently don't know that we can check it and verify? Can the alien channel into ME so that I can experience it directly?

you keep saying the same thing over and over, and many of us get your point. but it makes it seem like your in this discussion just to well for the the discussion it self.

Yes. I am having the discussion for the sake of the discussion. I am also doing so in the hope that someone might actually present some evidence for aliens.

and you keep dodging when hempcat and others got valid points

Please quote or paraphrase the valid points you think I am dodging and I will answer them in my next reply.

 

[High Country]

Anti....GET OVER IT!

You are very boring.

 

[HempKat]

I could not prove it and i would be annoyed at being told i'm full of it but i would also be questioning my sanity or i would realise it was just the acid
Can you tell me Hempkat how come you have said a couple of times you don't believe aliens have visited the earth yet its obvious from your posts you quite clearly believe the opposite ?

No it's quite clear from my posts that I'm open to the possibility they have visited the earth. I say that I don't think they have because science tells me that according to our best scientific minds it's not possible to travel between galaxies in any practical way because it would just take too long. Aliens may have discovered a way that we haven't though, so I can't rule out 100% that it's not possible. Now I myself have never seen an alien or a UFO other then in the movies and on TV, so this causes me to tend to lean more in favor of our scientific understanding of the limitations of intergalactic travel. If I had my own experiences that were as compelling as others feel their experiences were then I might be more inclined to lean the other way. All I really know for sure is that there are a whole shitload of people going all the way back to the dawn of mankind that seem to have had alien encounters and did their best to document them.

There's an old saying that goes something like, "If 1 person tells you you have a tail like a cat ignore them but if 10 people tell you, you better turn around and have a look for yourself"

In other words if it was just a few people from this current age that has such great special effects abilities I might ignore any claims of aliens but when I look and see that there are claims from ancient times all the way up to modern times and throughout the time in between from people of all walks of life and from people both educated and uneducated, it's kind of hard to just simply dismiss all those people from all those ages as being dellusional or full of crap.

 

[HempKat]

Hemp. The situation you describe is GREAT evidence - for the person who experienced it. Anyone else who hears about it from that person should be MUCH more skeptical.

Personal experience of having Jesus in your heart may be personal experience FOR YOU.... but if you cannot get Jesus to appear in my heart then there's absolutely no reason I should believe it.

See?

But if Jesus actually answers prayers, that's something that involves interaction with the physical world and can therefore be TESTED.

If the tests were conclusive, it would then be reasonable for people who had not directly experienced Jesus to begin to believe. See?

Lot of if's there though, so how do you determine conclusive? Say I pray for something let's say that I win the lottery. I then go out and buy a lottery ticket and lo and behold it wins. Is that proof my prayer was answered or would I have to do the same thing many times in a row to prove it to you? Since you could always claim the first win was coincidence.

When I asked Bill to imagine that scenario it wasn't so much to establish that a personal siting and/or encounter is proof even though the person only has their claim to offer as evidence. IT was to try to get Bill to see how rude, insulting and offensive it might be to people to be so dismissive as he has been of people's personal experiences. I would also hope someone reading that might also see the silliness in insisting on proof. Just because someone can't prove something to another doesn't mean that what he can't prove didn't happen.

 

[HempKat]

I agree with nearly everything you typed above. I specifically chose invisible, intangible unicorns because it is (by definition) something that cannot be proven.

I did so because people keep telling me that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

And so I am attempting to show those people exactly why their argument doesn't hold up.

If you believe in aliens (or Jesus) because it hasn't been DISPROVEN, you must also believe in my invisible, intangible unicorns because they have not been disproven either.

I've not seen anyone here say Aliens are real because nobody has disproven it. I have however seen many people say that Aliens are likely to be real because as vast as the universe is and as many places as life might evolve as there are in the universe it's just too unlikely we are the only life that has evolved.

Now I have seen people including myself that have said just because there is no hard undeniable proof it doesn't mean aliens don't exist. I've also seen people try to turn the tables on people demanding proof by asking for proof that Aliens don't exist. That however is not the same as saying aliens exist because it can't be disproven. Yes I know it's a subtle difference and perhaps your view is too rigid to recognize it but nobody here has based their belief of aliens on the fact that nobody can disprove it.

If aliens showed up in a MAJOR city, I'm pretty sure at least a FEW (say 1%) of the MILLIONS of people there would take the initiative to pull their cellphone cameras out. If 10,000 (assuming a city of one million) people post videos of the SAME UFO on the SAME NIGHT over the SAME CITY, that would be much more credible.

Assuming the UFO's flew slow enough and close enough to those 1% they might catch it with their cellphone cameras. Everybody and their brother having cellphones is a fairly recent phenomenon and while cellphone cameras are pretty good I doubt they're up to the task of taking clear photos of things way way up in the sky moving at fast speeds. For all you know many people have caught pictures of ufo's on their cellphones but then decided to keep quiet about it because it ended up being just a blur of light against a dark sky and they were afraid of being though a fool for claiming it to be a ufo? I have however, in researching UFO sitings read stories where numberous people in the same city or region called in to places like 911 around the same time to report a UFO so that then should be seen as much more credible yet people like yourself will still dismiss it because of no hard evidence.

It's amazing that the aliens only seem to abduct people along deserted country roads.

Why is it so amazing? Maybe the aliens are smart enough to know that being seen would cause widespread panic and that could lead to hostilities against the aliens or at the very least cause people to hide from them better and thereby complicate whatever goal they have with these abductions. Maybe it always happens on deserted country roads for a reason?

 

[HempKat]

And ON THAT DAY we will be justified in BELIEVING it is true. Not before.

Yeah but you still have to believe first, justification of a belief comes after believing not before or simultaneously. Newton saw an apple fall and came to believe there is a force called gravity that made it happen. To date there is no justification for this belief because we have not found a way to see, taste, smell, touch, hear or measure gravity and our only understanding exists in matmatical equations. Some day that may change and on that day then our belief in gravity will be justified.

 

[bombadil.360]

how can we possible know what they think or how they will act. thats kind of arrogant

exactly.

but also, if we were only like ants or bugs to them; well, we study ants and bugs; we don't disregard them just because they are ants and bugs. we even study bacteria and all kinds of tiny organisms...

if anything, we can speculate that if extraterrestrials were to travel to earth, they'd be as interested in us as we would be interested in other forms of life in other planets.

and actually, thinking otherwise goes against all logic on the matter.

peace