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This really is a great hobby.
This really is a great hobby.
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Lucas VS. Advanced Nutrients
- Thread starter MileHighGuy
- Start date
Jbonez....your good ppl but you stated right there you had to Find Genetics to suit your feel/ways...Expression = 50% Genetic + 50% Environment....what does this tell you about your situation?...
and Nutes = Enviro...not Genetic expression...
peace and great karma to you MileHighGuy!....
I like this guy right here....I feel what he;s saying..and thats what counts...
Pics...I got pics...and I feed super low in a hardly amended what I call "dumbass" mix...cause its just amended enough not to make the grower look like a dumbass...lol...jk...
I don;t even need allot of pics...I'll show you 4 types...and they bout cover it all for me...
Fed the same?....not in your life...cause its their life...not yours...now go clean up Their room...for them...plants have better bedrooms than we do...ya get that right?...they Own you...
unless You Grow and Live with Them...
the rest is he says shes says he did that he didnt and its all bs....
power to it...
4 types.-
Bubba for a Kush
DjBB Sativa dom
PButters Hawaiian mixed
Skunks Nest - Super Sativa.....
More - this is my lil secret....heh...
Kush line up....
my nute mix makes no sense at all..so Im not gana bother...but it is mostlymade up of AN products..not all tho...and I have some tricks up my 8 sleeves none of which means shit unless I know the Plant...Each and Every Plant....cause IMO in no way are they the Same at all...
this is 80%PMix/19%coco/+1% ewc at best...an touch of green sand...
btw if you can't dial a Veg mom....I'd go back to audio school...
FOE20
Attachments
Foe20, Im not sure I follow..
Id say expression is more like 95% I run a shit load of cuts, many since my organic days..
My plants dont care what nutes I feed em, long as they are healthy.. And when they are healthy, they perform.. And the results are the only way they could have been...
Environment cant be grouped with nutrients because the environment dictates transpiration, which directly effects uptake of nutrients.. Nutrient availability is relative..
What are your thoughts?
Id say expression is more like 95% I run a shit load of cuts, many since my organic days..
My plants dont care what nutes I feed em, long as they are healthy.. And when they are healthy, they perform.. And the results are the only way they could have been...
Environment cant be grouped with nutrients because the environment dictates transpiration, which directly effects uptake of nutrients.. Nutrient availability is relative..
What are your thoughts?
Jbonez...Im going to let this sit over the next day...I want you to try and understand why I feel this way..
Its not my words bro...50/50 is Botanical basics...were talkin Botany 101...when applied to Cannabis it doesn't change IMO...
All Factors are considered Environmental...except Genetic...
Your Feed...is a Simulation for Nature my friend...Your mix, water, room, air, sounds, etc...natural Simulations...
Which All can effect Genetic Expression...
We'll speak tomorrow....err later today?...heh..7am..eesh.....be well and keep rollin brah
FOE20
Its not my words bro...50/50 is Botanical basics...were talkin Botany 101...when applied to Cannabis it doesn't change IMO...
All Factors are considered Environmental...except Genetic...
Your Feed...is a Simulation for Nature my friend...Your mix, water, room, air, sounds, etc...natural Simulations...
Which All can effect Genetic Expression...
We'll speak tomorrow....err later today?...heh..7am..eesh.....be well and keep rollin brah
FOE20
I understand why you feel that way no doubt, And im cognizant of the insight you are throwing my way..
Its just that Im a grower.. Real time.. Ive grown Organic, Veganic, and hydroponic... Genetics are the dominating factor.
If we are assuming that the environment, which is a necessity for good growth, is in optimal conditions then that doesnt contribute anything, it would have to be right for the plant to produce to its maximum potential, it shouldnt even be part of the equation because it cannot be removed from the equation, its a must.. So lets say environment is dialed, from one grow room to the next, same plant, different nutes, same environment, I submit that the differences are negligible with different nutrients and that genetics are the dominating factor. Ive seen this personally over the years, its not really debatable imo.. Well, anything is debatable is suppose..
By your logic you can take shit bagseed and merely change the environment and nutrients for a better performing plant.. Sure you may tweak shit, but its still shit at the end of the day..
Make sense?
IM aware that two plants flowered at 10f differences will look very different after flowering.. So dont think Im not comprehending your logic..
Phenotypical expression is something I understand very well... I made it a point..
I tend to follow nature as much as possible and organics is a natural fit. I wouldn't grow my vegetables with the bottles at the grow shop. They say, how you are in one area of life, is how you are everywhere.
As far as environment, grow one cut indoor and one cut outdoor. I know you've done it. They are still identifiable but very different.
Maybe I'm not understanding the argument. But I think perspective is needed....
Jbones - Are you saying, that once the environment is dialed in perfect.... after that it is mostly genetics? (Edit: Hadn't read you last post yet... oops)
Nutrients are very interesting to me, and this subject is very close to the heart as I start to read more and more about traditional agriculture. I do feel that the entire NPK idea is flawed.
I personally can't wait to get a damn microscope
The benefit of a No-Till soil that is recycled over and over and over again is so intriguing to me I can't get over it.
I've seen incredible "NPK" buds that I wouldn't be able to differentiate in a line up from any organic bud. Very rarely for me, but I don't know many top shelf growers. I Liken this to the grocery store, often times the chemical grown vegetables look bigger and better. Sometimes not, but I know what I'd prefer to purchase. I would prefer to purchase my produce from the farmer that I can talk to about his methods. Same with weed. When someone tells me that it is 100% organic and grown with care it typically speaks to a mindset that is also against selling bud with mold on it and spraying chemicals in flower on buds that sick people smoke..... but without knowing the grower you never know for sure. Sometimes I would choose the bottled growers buds over the dirty hippie organic bud that was grown improperly ya know?
I think we can all agree that only the healthiest plant will produce the best buds possible... to it's maximum genetic potential. And although I may not do it your way, or anyone's way really... we all have to remember that these are kinda like our kids, and when people tell us that we aren't raising them right, it pisses us off! However, I do sneer at the fat kids parents in McDonalds... why you feed them like that!!?? HaHa Just joking you know what I'm saying.
My results speak only as a comparison between what I was personally doing with bottles to what I am currently doing now and nothing more. I do believe that If many of us lived closer together and were able to play in each others grow rooms we would understand much more about each other. Pictures never do cannabis a justice, they only prove a base minimum that it looks good.
Up Skirt Shot:
Some Afghan Kush Skunk:
What Nutrients are you running right now Jbonez?
As far as environment, grow one cut indoor and one cut outdoor. I know you've done it. They are still identifiable but very different.
Maybe I'm not understanding the argument. But I think perspective is needed....
Jbones - Are you saying, that once the environment is dialed in perfect.... after that it is mostly genetics? (Edit: Hadn't read you last post yet... oops)
Nutrients are very interesting to me, and this subject is very close to the heart as I start to read more and more about traditional agriculture. I do feel that the entire NPK idea is flawed.
I personally can't wait to get a damn microscope
The benefit of a No-Till soil that is recycled over and over and over again is so intriguing to me I can't get over it.
I've seen incredible "NPK" buds that I wouldn't be able to differentiate in a line up from any organic bud. Very rarely for me, but I don't know many top shelf growers. I Liken this to the grocery store, often times the chemical grown vegetables look bigger and better. Sometimes not, but I know what I'd prefer to purchase. I would prefer to purchase my produce from the farmer that I can talk to about his methods. Same with weed. When someone tells me that it is 100% organic and grown with care it typically speaks to a mindset that is also against selling bud with mold on it and spraying chemicals in flower on buds that sick people smoke..... but without knowing the grower you never know for sure. Sometimes I would choose the bottled growers buds over the dirty hippie organic bud that was grown improperly ya know?
I think we can all agree that only the healthiest plant will produce the best buds possible... to it's maximum genetic potential. And although I may not do it your way, or anyone's way really... we all have to remember that these are kinda like our kids, and when people tell us that we aren't raising them right, it pisses us off! However, I do sneer at the fat kids parents in McDonalds... why you feed them like that!!?? HaHa Just joking you know what I'm saying.
My results speak only as a comparison between what I was personally doing with bottles to what I am currently doing now and nothing more. I do believe that If many of us lived closer together and were able to play in each others grow rooms we would understand much more about each other. Pictures never do cannabis a justice, they only prove a base minimum that it looks good.
Up Skirt Shot:
Some Afghan Kush Skunk:
What Nutrients are you running right now Jbonez?
Jbonez - You making you own nutrients?
From one of your other posts... trying to get the nutrients right.
"Im starting to realize that P is a rare def, mainly because we are feeding them too much on average.. Mg is also unnecessarily overdone as well...
Its about finding the perfect balance to kep the gals happy.. Right now 5/5/7/5 with agsil is proving to best any formula Ive used to date.."
I couldn't agree more that high PK is ridiculous and causes many issues that woudn't normally arise. The High P is hand in hand with the Mg tailspin chase.
Agsil? Like Agsil16h.... You making your own silica sauce? Liking your style more and more.
From one of your other posts... trying to get the nutrients right.
"Im starting to realize that P is a rare def, mainly because we are feeding them too much on average.. Mg is also unnecessarily overdone as well...
Its about finding the perfect balance to kep the gals happy.. Right now 5/5/7/5 with agsil is proving to best any formula Ive used to date.."
I couldn't agree more that high PK is ridiculous and causes many issues that woudn't normally arise. The High P is hand in hand with the Mg tailspin chase.
Agsil? Like Agsil16h.... You making your own silica sauce? Liking your style more and more.
Im looking at compiling a formula using raw mineral salts.. Or adding a careful proportion of nutrients lacking in either the maxigro or maxibloom depending on what gives me the best ratios.. Just amending the maxigro or bloom essentially...
I like Maxigro, its got a 8:1 ratio on Nh4:No3 N, Iron DTPA, and all the micro bases covered, I just need to add a little ammoniacal N, supplement a bit of P and Si and Im money..
Right now tho Im having PRIMO results with the 5/5/7/5/.5..
enjoying the views and input fellaz....but seems my view isnt well taken...I'll refrain then..
AN vs Lucas....hows that fit in exactly then?...
FOE20
AN vs Lucas....hows that fit in exactly then?...
FOE20
Attachments
Last edited:
Dawn
Active member
I tend to follow nature as much as possible and organics is a natural fit. I wouldn't grow my vegetables with the bottles at the grow shop. They say, how you are in one area of life, is how you are everywhere.
As far as environment, grow one cut indoor and one cut outdoor. I know you've done it. They are still identifiable but very different.
Maybe I'm not understanding the argument. But I think perspective is needed....
Jbones - Are you saying, that once the environment is dialed in perfect.... after that it is mostly genetics? (Edit: Hadn't read you last post yet... oops)
Nutrients are very interesting to me, and this subject is very close to the heart as I start to read more and more about traditional agriculture. I do feel that the entire NPK idea is flawed.
I personally can't wait to get a damn microscope
The benefit of a No-Till soil that is recycled over and over and over again is so intriguing to me I can't get over it.
I've seen incredible "NPK" buds that I wouldn't be able to differentiate in a line up from any organic bud. Very rarely for me, but I don't know many top shelf growers. I Liken this to the grocery store, often times the chemical grown vegetables look bigger and better. Sometimes not, but I know what I'd prefer to purchase. I would prefer to purchase my produce from the farmer that I can talk to about his methods. Same with weed. When someone tells me that it is 100% organic and grown with care it typically speaks to a mindset that is also against selling bud with mold on it and spraying chemicals in flower on buds that sick people smoke.....
I am totally on board with this last statement. My wife is allergic to everything. She quit conventional medicine because it made her vomit and she seemed to get all the side effects, even the ones that doctors say "never happen". Bunch of BSers in my book, just there to sell prescriptions. So if she came off of these meds why would I do things to the natural medicine that is unnatural and could contribute to allergies, sickness, or a host of other things? Organic is the way to go. I have had growers put down my methods and say I could get bigger yields, shorter flowering times, etc. This is it for me;mine tastes better, is smoother, and is free from pesticides and other nastiness. End of the day, my wife reaches for mine every time. That's what counts. And when I give the meds I grew away to other patients I know they won't have a bad reaction at all. A clear conscience helps facilitate a peaceful heart.
i can understand why you wouldnt want to use pesticides etc. but theres is no difference to elements/compounds in organic soil to elements/compounds in a bottle.
It was my thread from back in the day... I recently hijacked it and started talking organics. That's why it got de-railed.
All that work with different strains and feedings and stuff. That's crazy work. I just water, add a few natural extras and let the plants pick and choose what to do and when. I mainly focus on having a good soil with lot's of sequestered nutrients and a High CEC.... then let it come alive! Right now my main focus is making my own compost and worm castings as quality as I can. I would love to mix a soil with just earth worm castings, compost, lava rock and Sphagnum. If the right inputs were in the compost while it was being made, I think the results could be phenomenal.
Anyways. FOE20
That's one of the problems, the whole bottled nutrient concept turns this into "who" knows best and who is the most disciplined at applying the NPK principles with PPM, PH etc...
With organics, it's all about getting the basics so the Plant Knows best and the plant can have the most choices based upon it's individual needs. It removes the grower from the equation and that takes an ego blow. At that point, it really is just genetics.
I can't imagine why people wan't to combine Organics with Chemicals... it makes absolutely no sense at all.
If you're adding Bottles and amendments that are made to bypass the soil food web, then why even try to go organic..... your soil will still be dead and the rizoshpere non-existent.
All that work with different strains and feedings and stuff. That's crazy work. I just water, add a few natural extras and let the plants pick and choose what to do and when. I mainly focus on having a good soil with lot's of sequestered nutrients and a High CEC.... then let it come alive! Right now my main focus is making my own compost and worm castings as quality as I can. I would love to mix a soil with just earth worm castings, compost, lava rock and Sphagnum. If the right inputs were in the compost while it was being made, I think the results could be phenomenal.
Anyways. FOE20
That's one of the problems, the whole bottled nutrient concept turns this into "who" knows best and who is the most disciplined at applying the NPK principles with PPM, PH etc...
With organics, it's all about getting the basics so the Plant Knows best and the plant can have the most choices based upon it's individual needs. It removes the grower from the equation and that takes an ego blow. At that point, it really is just genetics.
I can't imagine why people wan't to combine Organics with Chemicals... it makes absolutely no sense at all.
If you're adding Bottles and amendments that are made to bypass the soil food web, then why even try to go organic..... your soil will still be dead and the rizoshpere non-existent.
but yet its not MileHigh...and I do...so this makes it less validated to you....
when its shown in workin order...working..
Would a grower who knows the quality of organics not get the same quality from any other method if skilled enough t be able to?....
I believe so my friend....and I do...I never questioned organics but theres arguments for that as well now a days...but I'll let you work out the N-P-K theory from here....and addition of minor organics in a sythn method improves a few profiles as well...how it effects the roots?...I don't smoke or use my Roots for meds...My Herb is well grown..well cared for and well flushed and cured...easy enough..
I keep it simple...even tho I use both...it still works and to a level I'll put on any table..
Thats not a challenge either...just being real bro...hope your kewl with it...its no sweat of my numbs...keep rollin
FOE20
i use some organic stuff in veg but everything else is general bottled nutrients. i dont think plants can choose as such what they can take from the soil. i honestly dont see alot of difference between the two.
I believe there is a diff in the end product so I understand the views/argument about quality...It is valid...to be honest if some elements are missing the herb will be lacking profile elements as well....maybe we can agree om that much....
but seems like its starting to bash Nutes in general...and it aint the nutes, its how any of it is used IMO...
happy growing...
FOE20
but seems like its starting to bash Nutes in general...and it aint the nutes, its how any of it is used IMO...
happy growing...
FOE20
Plants need the essential elements and they don't care where they come from. This applies both to bottles and the OT conversation here.
The reason that I bash Nutrients is that there are only about 1 or 2 products that aren't marked up to oblivion at my local shop and for absolutely no reason... When You go to a Farming store the bottles are simple, no flying sharks with lasers or dripping wet betty's (wet betty is 99.79% Inert Ingredients)
As far as the Organic while adding bottled routine.
This is NOT organic... and Veganic is a joke too.
I'm not trying to be a nazi but it does get frustrating when cannabis is treated as if it grows differently than all the other annual flowering plants. It's not such a big deal and I don't get why I would need to use ANY of the nutrient program bottles at all in a well made organic soil.
If I thought I needed a bottle, then I would question my soil... You know what I mean? I love talking about this and it's kinda hard not to come off offended or rude or whatever, but have at it, this is good shit.
While i'm learning about how to properly cater to this amazing living soil I can't help but to wonder what chemical nutrients do to the sensitive atmosphere down below.
Let's start debating the proper way. Information Backed.
Here is a link to an article by Dr. Jill Clapperton and Dr. Megan Ryan (Thanks to Neo420) Titled, "UNCOVERING THE REAL DIRT ON NO-TILL",
http://www.sdnotill.com/Newsletters/Real%20Dirt.pdf
Here is an excerpt of the relationship that I'm talking about.
THE RHIZOSPHERE
In undisturbed soil, most of the nutrient cycling, roots, and biological activity are found in the top 20 to 30 cm, called the rooting zone. Within the rooting zone is the rhizosphere: the root, soil attached to the root, and the adjacent soil which is influenced by the root. The rhizosphere is characterised as a zone of intense microbial activity, and represents a close relationship between the plant, soil and soil organisms.
Any outside factor affecting one member of the triad will have consequences for the other two members. The rhizosphere is bathed in energy-rich carbon compounds, the products of plant photosynthesis, which have leaked from the roots. These include sugars, amino acids and organic acids and are called root exudates.
Every plant species leaks a unique signature of compounds from their roots. The quantity and quality of these compounds depends to a certain extent on the soil chemical and physical properties, but in all cases determines the microbial community of the rhizosphere."
But if you still think flushing is real with your horticulture background than it makes me scratch my head more than the bottles do... your in soil right? Not to pick another fight here, but I'm gonna haha. Why do you flush? For a final flush? or just to get rid of some salt build up?
You are right as far as needing elements. But they way the absorb and utilize them is very different. I prefer to grow with Biology while some prefer chemistry. I think nature is superior and if you're going to pick a method I'd say go with one or the other... not both. This is the point of my argument.
Clearly as demonstrated by Foe20 it can be done, to what extent the tinkering helps or hurts, hard to say with this very resilient and amazing plant we grow. I'm willing to bet that his weed is very very good otherwise he wouldn't be stepping up to the plate here, but I am actively learning about plants and not all of what he says makes sense. After all, we are ALL still learning. I will say that most of the information perpetuated by the heavily marketed cannabis grow hydro companies is bullshit propaganda... and it takes a long time to drop.
All of the nutrients in the bottles can be made for pennies with chemical salts online or with local plants around my town. Like this ridiculous Aptus shit. Why won't these honest companies step forward with the ingredients? Either way, most of the Nutrient companies are out for a large profit that they unfairly take from a niche that is clouded with misinformation.
Well now I'm high and rambling.
Did I make any sense to anyone?
april20gardener
Member
All I know is maxi bloom so my eyes are open
ive got to stop here and say that actually a plant will utilize nutrients the same reguardless of the source. for example nitrogen is nitrogen no matter where is comes from.
biology and chemistry are inter twinned you cant have one without the other.
nature is not superior really if you think about it.
indoor grow rooms- as close to lab conditions are gonna be optimum for growth.
nature provides an enviroment which plants have had to try to evolve in. indoors you can take away all the negatives.
in nature you have:
fluctuating temps and humidity
pests
nutrient availability depends on the site so could be good or bad.
inconsistant waterings
cloudy/rainy days and inconsistant sunlight.
indoor you have
consistant temps and humidity
no pests
perfect nutrients available
regular waterings
no clouds or rain- high intensity light constanly.
*optimum conditions for growth*
it all depends on your approach. some of us like to go the hippy way some of us want to go the lab style route. some neither.
id go the lab route optimum condition = optimum growth and with most hydro methods you can optimise nute uptake too.
i hope you take this as discussion rather than an attack. theres more than one way to skin a cat and theres nothing wrong with us all having our own opinion.
