Pot farm boom slams Northern Calif. environment

[Crusader Rabbit]

Lots of crusading...no solutions. Kill the poor?

LOL !

I have been pontificating a lot lately, haven't I?


The poor lose. This is the USA. The system wants its piece of the pie. You need to be able to pay all the appropriate fees and know who's palms to grease. The USDA is becoming very strict in its regulation of agriculture. They are using a lot of satellite imagery in this endeavor.

I think we're seeing the start of a game changer here. Small agricultural endeavors don't have the political clout to transfer their operating costs onto society like big business does. If the widespread environmental consequences of people growing in rural areas become pronounced, the government is going to get into everyone's business over this. From federal to local they'll get into your business.

If you're messing with threatened vertebrate species then it starts to involve different branches of government. Now it's not just law enforcement. You've got federal Fish and Wildlife people pissed off at what's happening. This is a whole different pot of funding from LEO. A whole bunch of biologists who could care less if people smoke pot are now really concerned.

In the Pacific Northwest the growers have found support because of the poor economy. It used to be logging and fishing kept people afloat. Then the lumber ran out, and the environmental damage from logging and agriculture devastated the salmon runs too. Growing pot has allowed communities to hang on. If pot growing becomes associated with the destruction of the last of the salmon runs then it could become ugly. From San Francisco to Alaska, salmon is sacrosanct. This is going to divide communities in a big way.

 

[SeaMaiden]

I'm waiting to receive my 2012 Census of Agriculture form from the USDA, just got my little notifier card last week.

Your points about the salmon and associated fisheries is 100% on point. It colors a lot of what I do and how I do it, as well as what causes I put effort or money into.

And, I just want to say that I appreciate the fact that you are capable of seeing different viewpoints, even if you don't necessarily share them. I appreciate the balanced, thoughtful responses.

 

[THE PABLOS]

LOL !

I have been pontificating a lot lately, haven't I?


The poor lose. This is the USA. The system wants its piece of the pie. You need to be able to pay all the appropriate fees and know who's palms to grease. The USDA is becoming very strict in its regulation of agriculture. They are using a lot of satellite imagery in this endeavor.

I think we're seeing the start of a game changer here. Small agricultural endeavors don't have the political clout to transfer their operating costs onto society like big business does. If the widespread environmental consequences of people growing in rural areas become pronounced, the government is going to get into everyone's business over this. From federal to local they'll get into your business.

If you're messing with threatened vertebrate species then it starts to involve different branches of government. Now it's not just law enforcement. You've got federal Fish and Wildlife people pissed off at what's happening. This is a whole different pot of funding from LEO. A whole bunch of biologists who could care less if people smoke pot are now really concerned.

In the Pacific Northwest the growers have found support because of the poor economy. It used to be logging and fishing kept people afloat. Then the lumber ran out, and the environmental damage from logging and agriculture devastated the salmon runs too. Growing pot has allowed communities to hang on. If pot growing becomes associated with the destruction of the last of the salmon runs then it could become ugly. From San Francisco to Alaska, salmon is sacrosanct. This is going to divide communities in a big way.

I have agreed with everything you have said. Of the opinion that a consumer driven processed world....is a frantic world to dwell in. I do not see it ending. Well...it will end...when there is nothing left to consume...but that's down the road.

I like activism. I like do...but also a realist..understanding that in the present world...that is still continuing to overpopulate with us...there will be many more concessions of the land. I see that all food supplies...and water is being deliberately monopolized. That it is leading down a road where the reality is...that there is no freedom of choice...and everything is regulated only..to continue the consumer process.

All solutions are going to come from politics. Politics suck...as their solutions are going to deal in more and more regulations. This is the way it has to work. The activist might win little battles...but the consumerist will continue to win the war. The grand design of the mighty over the weak...as per plan

I've accepted certain outcomes....might not like them...but I look at it objectively. There is happiness in objectivity. Build my gardens...and be a happy nobody. The world will out survive us...so maybe the light shines there.

Still say ending prohibition...ends some of these problems...originally put forth...in the 1st post. I don't think it would increase them. My opinion.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

All solutions are going to come from politics. Politics suck...as their solutions are going to deal in more and more regulations.

Politics are also the original creator of this issue. The ultimate solution is the removal of regulations... not the creation of more.

Still say ending prohibition...ends some of these problems...originally put forth...in the 1st post. I don't think it would increase them. My opinion.

Exactly...
You want to end destruction of the environment, remove all regulations from cannabis/hemp completely.

Only when people are free to grow, trade, consume, breed and whatever else they wish to do with cannabis... will the damage to the environment reach it's lowest point.

All of the damages that people cite are in response to growers trying to get 'more' from their spot to pay bills or make more money (only reason they can make money is prohibition, remember?) or to deal with the non-optimal variables of the location they're stuck with using.

It's a sad day when the facts are pushed aside by propaganda. Everyone who has a problem with the 'raping' of the environment that the new cannabis companies are going to do... needs to boycott every commercial and most farms in existence today... along with tobacco, alcohol and a thousand other things.

Cannabis looks to be one of the least damaging of what's currently operating today. It certainly grows with the least amount of chemical nitrogen ferts. (Unlike the ubiquitous corn that our govt pays our farmers to overproduce)

As for anyone who has an issue with my attitude? Check your logic routines. *shrug* I may be missing my diplomacy button but at least I have a thick enough skin not to go crying about it to others when I read it from others. I don't say things to intentionally hurt people, I don't say things that are untrue as I know them and I do my best not to pull crap out of my butt or from the propaganda pool and post it online. My intention is to wake people up to the reality around them. *shrug*

I state the facts as I've researched them. Most of the issues I've run into come from people that haven't. Facts are facts.

OVER GROW COLORADO!!

Stay Safe!

 

[megayields]

I'm sorry I posted this ..I never intended it to degrade to a "name calling" thread..I only thought this information might educate us all to be slightly more enlightened as we move forward, the moderator may close this thread if it only is adding to a overall "negativity" of IC Mag, that was not my intention.

 

[Avinash.miles]

sure mega, you posted it thinking "this'll stir the pot, this will put otherwise likeminded peers at odds with each other over an issue they ultimately are prolly on the same side of. thus adding to the negativity of ICmag *EVIL AS HELL LAUGH*"

jk megayields,
i feel ya.

 

[Hydro-Soil]

I'm sorry I posted this

I'm not.

People need to become aware. This subject (which you only posted an article from... not like you wrote it or anything) is a perfect example of how the masses are divided.

You have the intellectually curious, like myself and a good number of folks here... and then you have the people that just regurgitate what they hear.

This thread has done a great job of spelling out who's who. Hopefully... a few of those who are not intellectually curious, will be pissed off enough to do some research... and regain their intellectual curiosity.

You mention something that goes against what I'm saying and I'm going to go look it up and compare it to what I've read and experienced. Most of the folks in public I meet... don't have this curiosity. So sad.

Stay Safe!

 

[dagnabit]

Horseshit
You display classic signs of confirmation bias in every single thread you post in.
And like those you abhor you try to diminish anyone who challenges your bias with ad hominem.
Intellectual curiosity my shiny metal ass.

 

[megayields]

sure mega, you posted it thinking "this'll stir the pot, this will put otherwise likeminded peers at odds with each other over an issue they ultimately are prolly on the same side of. thus adding to the negativity of ICmag *EVIL AS HELL LAUGH*"

jk megayields,
i feel ya.

Avanish......have you been in my mind lately?

 

[CanniDo Cowboy]

EUREKA, Calif. (AP) — From water-siphoning to pesticide-spraying to just plain littering, a flowering of pot farms driven by the rise of medical marijuana is battering Northern California's wilderness areas, natural resources and endangered species.

The Los Angeles Times reported Sunday that in one remote, 37-square mile forest patch, scientists found 567 outdoor farms and greenhouses.

Most used water — totaling about 18 million gallons per year — diverted from an Eel River tributary, spawning ground for the endangered coho salmon.

Despite the state push toward decriminalizing marijuana, growers remain rogue and free from oversight.

They have graded mountaintops for greenhouses, illegally cut down trees and in one case poisoned dozens of a rare forest carnivore near Yosemite called a fisher. Scientists determined most had ingested rodenticide used by growers on pot plants.

Researchers are finding a potpourri of contaminants seeping into the watershed from marijuana farms, which are unregulated and largely operate in the shadows. Fungicides, fertilizers, diesel fuel, human waste, plant hormones and soil amendments are some of the others that are ravaging the environment.

Scientists suspect that runoff from potting soil and fertilizers, combined with lower-than-normal river flow due to water diversions, has resulted in a spate of toxic algae blooms in North Coast rivers over the past decade.

The cyanobacteria outbreaks threaten public health for swimmers and kill food that salmon and steelhead trout eat. Eleven dogs have died since 2001 after ingesting the blooms.

Growers are required to obtain permits to take water from a creek but Tony LaBanca, senior environmental scientist with the state Department of Fish and Game, told the Times that less than 1 percent of growers comply with the permits, usually only after an enforcement action.

Other research has shown other effects of the state's marijuana crops — electricity use. A study in the journal Energy Policy estimated that indoor marijuana cultivation could be consuming nine percent of the state's household electric power use.

The topic of environmental damage resulting from mj cultivation is far reaching but you might want to focus on a possible much bigger picture here. Depending on which side you represent, pro-gro or no-gro, truths and or myths can be and usually are, like bullets from a gun. Take the article for instance. IMO, it's one of the more ridiculous efforts of attempting to somehow make me believe that on-going outdoor cultivation malpractice, as real as it may be, can somehow be accurately measured by writing such a stupid, stupid story.

First, the LA Times: Located at ground zero for everything anti-marijuana in the entire state of California. LA has more pending lawsuits, hearings and appeals resulting from marijuana arrests than the entire country combined. I could make a claim, nor more stupid than the LA Times article, that Bonnie Dumanis, the LA D.A. and leader of the Southern California 3rd Reich Anti-Marijuana Coalition, went to the Times and said: "Here, print this..."

I am always skeptical when I read an article that is loaded with negative claims from unnamed "researchers", scientists, and especially wary of ANY study from ANY Journal...On the topic of environmental destruction from marijuana cultivation, one of the last organizations I would trust for truth or accuracy would be the Dept of Fish and Game. How far from the Feds do you think these guys are? Far from being miles apart, closer to being hand in hand.

Propaganda has many forms but usually just one intent: Right or wrong, make you believe what they believe. So, find yourself a dumb-ass or willing newspaper, round up a few so-called researchers and scientists, get the boys over at the institute to do a study, throw in some misinformation from a recognizable organization such as Ca Fish & Game, who incidentally, has done more to harm the California salmon population than all growers combined, and you too can be in the anti-marijuana business.

I dont know about the rest of you, but I find the article mostly insulting. The LA Times knows little about N California other than folks up here dont like S California meddling in our affairs. So butt out LA Times and do something useful and positive. Write a story about Dumanis and our tax dollars she is wasting and her unlawful tactics of waging an anti-medical marijuana war in your own backyard. Or do a story about how the LA area is slowly sucking dry the rest of the state water supply. Or get your scientists and researchers to tell us how much electricity is consumed in S California.

I'm sure S California has its own truths and myths about environmental destruction, marijuana related and then some. LOL, hell, you guys stood by and let your city officials lay to waste hundreds of healthy, beautiful street-lined trees just so the Space Shuttle could go thru town. What did you do? You stood on the side-walk waiving little American flags as it passed by...Please CC

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

if you remember swimming in the rivers around them parts you also remember when the algae took over...

Sounds real to me

 

[dagnabit]

i wouldn't swim near ANY farm of ANY sort...

on a separate note we for years as a movement/culture have compared marijuana to the negatives of society. it is a defensive strategy. we compare to alcohol,tobacco and in this case industrial polluters. we always say "look at all the damage X causes and we allow that but,we dont allow marijuana."
we have to start to argue for marijuana on it's own merits. we have to be willing to acknowledge the negatives. this is how the final push must be made.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Megayields, I understand your dismay, but you had to know, as Avinash pointed out, that this would be a divisive issue. In many regards 'we' feel vilified, denigrated, and marginalized as a group. So that means that many of us are going to have some rather sharp knee-jerk reactions when we feel we're further being denigrated or marginalized.

My own stance is two-fold. First, humans cannot simply be expected to do the right thing because it's the right thing, e.g. using toxic chems in the cultivation of cannabis. There are those who know it's not right, and those who don't, but it adds up to the same end result, right? We can ascribe any number of reasons behind the actions, but the end result is the same.

Given that fact, combined with natural human tendencies, I feel that regulation will be in our futures. There's actually a whole lot more on this subject of regulation that I could say but it would be getting very political, so I'll just shorten it up to say that in our current climate, our current political status, and our current form of governance, we need more regulation (of the big guys), not less.

Has anyone else read that Phillip-Morris is positioning themselves to provide that legal cannabis in Colorado and Washington? Perfectly predictable. Now what? No regulations for a corporation like that? Just let 'em run amok, eh?

Thing is, even the little guy needs some guidance, if for no other reason than to eliminate ignorance. For example, I think it's ignorant to suggest that allowing a free for all and removing all forms of regulation (aka pseudo-anarchy) would result in everyone simply doing the right thing. If that were true, we would not observe what I wrote about previously (cyanide fishing, aquaculture, logging, mining, etc, etc, etc, not to mention conventional farming).

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

to dagnabit...the merits to me of maryjane.

Marijuana made me take responsibility for myself and at the very least be aware of what I put into my body. Cannabis made me think about what went into making that which I consume and what that actually is. Marijuana made me realize my body is a temple, my temple. Marijuana made me realize I cannot spray poisons in the wild as the birds I had befriended started hanging out in my buds and making a meal of my pests. Marijuana made me realize that food is medicine and medicine is food and that it is not in my best interests to eat poison, GM Bt or otherwise. Marijuana led me realize that I could grow things which led to many careers in my life. Marijuana made me grow mushrooms which once beneficially fed my head and even today continues to feed my belly and take care of my long term health. Marijuana made me grow my own food, medicine and sacrament. Marijuana made me realize I have the power to do shit myself. Marijuana taught me what freedom meant. Marijuana made me realize what rights inherently I was born with. Marijuana made me realize the errors of my ways, in agriculture and life and taught me skills, made me appreciate music, made me take daily time out of my day to do nothing but think, made me meet people and see places and places from places that I would never have dreamed of. Marijuana made me live my dream. Marijuana introduced me to chemistry and taught me about terpenes. Marijuana taught me why the drug store is largely redundant. Marijuana taught me that cancer CAN be beaten. Marijuana taught me how to make cuttings a long time ago and these days cuttings of large trees and other tissue culture propagated plants pays my bills. Marijuana taught me to enjoy the fine things in life, to savor the flavor and that price is no measure of quality or value. If I never smoked that joint my life would have been much shittier. I love my life!

To the humble unjustly persecuted herb, marijuana, I am forever indebted for the gifts she has bestowed upon me. I am quite sick to death of the propaganda. Responsible people will be responsible and irresponsible people, irresponsible... It is all a smokescreen and the tyrants in this world if they actually cared would be in the schools themselves teaching the kids to be responsible not waging civil wars..
Seamaiden.. Don't know what to say.. tobacco isn't evil, but tobacco companies...whoooooa! The only thing that will change this world is education with a big servings of bare naked ugly truth. Otherwise we are fucked? Or the educated making choices, living by them and being examples for other monkeys to copy. Its the only way we can make a difference sometime by taking responsibility for ourselves and waiting for the hundred monkeys thing to kick in.. and it does. The root of it all I guess is that our value system has been removed from reality through systematic culturing and manipulation and now real value has been replaced by a valueless common denominator and nothing or few things in a modern economy are done for the value of what they are, but just for the buck. This means that very little real raw value gets created and a whole lot of illusion substitutes. When we start making food for the sake of making food, growing food for the sake of growing food, making medicine for the sake of making medicine, harnessing and storing energy just for the sake of doing just that and not for buck...realizing the real value of everything, not using some imaginary number or common measure..things will change. Only then will the commoners stop being short-changed in ways like letting faceless corporate entities frack their backyards and cartels sell them bloodweed and letting dea-la times-BS reach print and letting hicks poison their salmon steams. Weed should not make us lesser men or women, but to the contrary. Weed empowers you to stand up for yourself and your rights and your backyard.

Weed teaches one not to piss on ones' doorstep but to instead piss on ones' trees. Weed teaches one that things are not exactly as they seem, what the real meaning of things are and how to separate that from false BS that one has been taught. That is why the DEA and other agencies around the states and the world hate it so much, or more plainly... because they are the gestapo of the mega rich that hide behind multi-national corporations that have corrupted the political and judicial system in all our countries so that they can continue daily to piss and shit on all our doorsteps and us and steal the our common inheritance everyday to this day. But karma is a bitch. But anyway nice heated discussion people, divided and conquered we were nearly but digging all the opinions, it makes for healthy debate!

 

[THE PABLOS]

Solutions?

It's not your single home grower who is creating the mess. It's the people who are "going big" for the dollar...who create environmental messes. The dude who has 12 small flowering plants in a private indoor garden...is not impacting the environment in any real measurable sense. If you want to add all those up collectively...it's still not on the scale as commercial farming...commercial fishing...commercial logging...commercial mining..commercial industry

Eliminate the dollar profit....you will eliminate the people "going big" for the dollar. Prohibition drives the dollar. Who wants to grow 30 huge trees...put in all the work...for pennies on a dollar?

Absolutely...regulation will happen. Doesn't seem to work well (or maybe it does depending on how you look at it) in commercial farming...but that's the only route. Hand it over to the professional farmers...and their professional lobbies. That's what they do...and that's where it will go..ideally leaving room for the small/home/hobby grower. It is an age where plants are outlawed and regulated...and we can not escape that...on any kind of large scale. For better or for worse. Hopefully...I don't see the day when they outlaw all home gardening....as regulating being such a tricky thing...where does it stop?

Change the way of the corporate farm system? All for it. Show me a solution...and I'll see you in 30 yrs. By then...who knows?..maybe there won't be much to protect....but I'm all ears and eyes...practice the preach.

* don't lump pot smokers/farmers all in one group...we are not all for the same thing.

Edit: you know...peeps can never just chill. It's always one thing or another. The sky is constantly falling

 

[SwampNug]

I would love it if I could grow my ganja in with the cucumber and beans. Imagine picking sugarsnaps off your sweet cindy!

I grow my veggies and fruits with compost and manure, right in the ground. Unfortunately my smokables are out in the woods grown with promix from Canada and fertilizer from California.

Couldnt agree more that prohibition has created a wild west of sorts, where anything goes in the name of profit.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

You should definitely have sugar snaps falling off your cindy's arms! You have a veggie garden with compost and manure and no weed in it..you are missing out on the best tasting herb of your growing! All those earthworms and shit and passed eaten plant makes for super high natural humic and organic acids, healthy soil microbe populations and lots of available NP&K. Plant tomatos, red and green basil, rocket and baby marrows etc, rows of cucumbers and sorry... where did you say there was weed growing- it just disappears..

edit.. The problem is the dollar or the currency rather, euro, yen, rand.. which is irrelevant. The problem comes in when things are done for the profit and not for the sake or doing it. Growing good herb for the sake of growing good herb. If doing it for the masses, doing it for the sake of growing good herb for the masses. If for yourself just yourself. Figuring out what exact value you are trying to create and doing it for the sake of just that, and doing that. And then by the same value system, not just taking value elsewhere and redressing it and reselling it or being a parasite destroying existing value that you are not responsible for, ie mining, agribusiness, energy industries, cities, nature, environment, stable climate etc.. When we start working on value and not profit we break free.

 

[THE PABLOS]

Well..someone/some entities are going to exist for making financial profits. That's not going to go away. It can be lessened however...by lowering their gains/motivations. The price put on a product...its manufacture and its retail cost...are out of whack in the case of cannabis. Prohibition has made this so.

Then you have articles like this...propaganda infused or not...that help paint a picture of dirty industry. Knee jerk reactions are instigated into the community...the regulators wake up and start calling out fouls...blanketing the responsible and the irresponsible...into the same bed. Exactly what is happening in this thread. Manipulation.

Pot growers are destroying the environment...my gosh. Stop smoking pot....it's evil. It wrecks the environment. It supports terrorism.

* I have nothing against people making a buck...but I do have issues with knee jerks/chicken littles

 

[Ziggaro]

I understand your point Pablos and I agree with you somewhat.
However, I think it ignores that there are real world farmers doing exactly that (making pennies on the dollar) growing soybeans and other food crops. Returns in 1998 were about 140 dollars per ACRE on soybeans in Wisconsin.
Now consider the amount of land that must be used to to make a profit, the amount of pesticides, of fertilizer on such a large scale.. Not to mention GM soybeans pollinating other non GM soybeans...
Just to be clear, I'm 100% for legalization but I don't believe it will help pollution. Surely it would keep people out of national forests and protected areas, though.

 

[THE PABLOS]

I understand your point Pablos and I agree with you somewhat.
However, I think it ignores that there are real world farmers doing exactly that (making pennies on the dollar) growing soybeans and other food crops. Returns in 1998 were about 140 dollars per ACRE on soybeans in Wisconsin.
Now consider the amount of land that must be used to to make a profit, the amount of pesticides, of fertilizer on such a large scale.. Not to mention GM soybeans pollinating other non GM soybeans...
Just to be clear, I'm 100% for legalization but I don't believe it will help pollution. Surely it would keep people out of national forests and protected areas, though.

Keeping it out of national forest and protected areas...is helping with pollution though.

As far as GMO...and all that other stuff. I'm a home grower of herb and my own foods. I garden in and out...year round. That's an activist way to approach these things...grass roots...start with what is easily reachable. That's not going to change the farm system..or stop people from overgrowing herb non eco friendly...but it's a start. A positive without a negative.

It offers solution...that doesn't involve government regulators coming onto my private property and enforcing their will..because some knee jerk reactionaries feel threatened every time they read something on the internet....or hear about the destruction of the world.

I can tell you...growing meat destroys the environment...involves the use of GMOs...pesticides..uses shit loads of water...way more than growing cannabis ever will. People have no issue with that? Not if they are meat eaters...they don't.

Grow pot commercially...legally...in an organic farm system and sell it...at a reasonable exchange rate? Yes...of course....that works.

Take it away from private home growers...via all kinds of regulations? No. Invite more government involvement into citizen lives? No....not healthy solutions.

I doubt you'd see BIG private or public land un eco friendly gardens....if there was no dollar profit motivation. I don't see how anyone can argue this point. Prohibition has created this problem....consumeristic...profit driven mentality has created these environmental issues....fuck it...talk talk