Living organic soil from start through recycling

[QuentinQuark]

I have an email in to the Premier folks to inquire how much of the aboves mixes are compost and how much are peat. Strange, the Canadian formulations of the Premier formulations have manure in them but the US versions don't. Buggers.

Premier BioMax Shrimp Compost Mix, shrimp compost with peat and manure (.7-.4-.4), $7 for 35L (approx. 9 Gal)
Premier BioMax Seaweed Compost Mix, seaweed compost with peat and manure (1.8-1.8-1.8), $7 for 35L (approx. 9 Gal)

So I heard back from these folks. Those mixes are 80% compost, 20% peat. No manure - they actually said that the information on Rona's website is wrong and they will talk to them about it!

I also found this stuff, made by the same people. Have sent them a message inquiring about the composition. Will post here when I hear back.

I also found fish bone meal for a slightly more reasonable price. I think I'm going to be able to put together something pretty awesome here!

 

[QuentinQuark]

QQ

Gaia Green, Grand Forks, BC

They have the exclusive on the Canadian Glacial Rock Dust from the mines also located in Grand Forks. Their Product List is very impressive and they have retailers that carry their products in 12 provinces including Ontario.

So now you're down to Sphagnum peat moss and humus. The reason that the US versions of Sphagnum out of Canada arrive here unadulterated is that the packers here do a much better job of screwing things up in their soil mixes and blank-soil packs. Quite an achievement.

That's a start for you anyway......

CC

Yup, that's the stuff my local hydro shop carries, they just rape you for the smaller quantities, and I need seriously small quantities.

It's all good, I'm starting to piece things together.

Meeker's Magic
Shrimp Compost (80% compost, 20% peat)
Seaweed Compost (80% compost, 20% peat)
Kelp Triple-Mix (I got an inquiry in to these folks to get a better idea of the composition - triple mix of what exactly??)
Wiggle Worm EWCs
Some peat (I'll be able to do the calculations once I get the ratios on the triple-mix)
Small amount of coco coir
Small amount of charcoal

3-part lime mix from original post

Milorganite and alfalfa for N amendment
Fish Bone Meal for P amendment

green sand, glacial rock dust, gypsum, DE

All locally available, all reasonable priced.

Miss anything?

 

[QuentinQuark]

QuentinQuark - Go with the peat if you can, I'm cheap and just wanted to re-use what was in my backyard. I
believe peat has a higher CEC, I've been told coir holds on tight to Calcium and Magnesium while being a Potassium whore....

Yep I'll be mostly peat, will throw a bit of coco coir in there just for grins, but like 80% peat - 80% of the 30% that is

 

[JoeDudeGuy]

For cannabis you are probably better getting soil/compost from a wild grass or weed area. More liklihood of the correct mycorrhizal fungi, etc.

Please everybody don't make a habit of this unless you find an area scheduled for development. There is a reason why the forest does not need fertilizer.

This is really worth repeating for those who don't already know it !

 

[Durdy]

Thanks for the info CC Ill stick with sprouting seeds for my enzyme needs!

 

[Gascanastan]

I'm certain he was talking about outdoors... hehe cover crop indoors. Although I did watch a bio-intensive vid recently that mentioned a cover crop that was super short, like 4 inches. If anyone's interested let me know and i'll track it down and pass it along.

Read MGD's thread from the start....not exactly a cover crop in the common sense of the word.....but close. We had a damned good no till after the 'cover crop' seed mix kept the soil active between cannabis plantings.

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

So i was intrigued by the coir vs peat debate and found this helpful comment

Coir is less acidic, and lasts longer

clip this post email this post what is this?
see most clipped and recent clippings

Posted by berkana (My Page) on
Mon, May 5, 08 at 23:45

When it comes to the performance of coir vs. peat moss, here are the primary differences:

Coir is less acidic than peat moss which is mined out of peat bogs that naturally have an acidic environment. Peat moss may acidify your soil enough that some of the more sensitive plants may need the soil to be neutralized before they can thrive.

The dispute about which one holds more water is pretty much irrelevant, since both hold so much water that as a soil amendment, both would dramatically boost soil water and nutrient retention. My experience is that coir holds an enormous amount of water; one little brick labeled as 1/3 cubic foot (expanded) typically expands way beyond 1/3 c.f. if you give it as much water as it will soak up.

Coir contains a great deal of lignin, which makes it very slow to decompose (which is a good thing). I have heard that it decomposes more slowly than peat moss, which does not have the lignin content of coir, but I have not had enough years of experience with it to be sure. The reason this is supposed to be beneficial is that coir is supposed to be able to keep benefitting the soil for years after being added, whereas peat moss would break down before coir and require another addition.

The Canadian Peat Moss association cites studies that show that coir's performance is very near to that of peat moss, but peat moss is better over-all as a soil amendment, especially for for sandy soil. Then again, these people have a conflict of interest, since they mine the peat moss for a living. The whole point of adding either peat moss or coir is to add cellulose fiber to loosen soil and to help it hold water and nutrients. Compost also adds some of this, along with nutrients; coir and peat moss by themselves do not have any plant nutrient value.

Once ecological concerns are factored in, my personal verdict is for coir: peat moss is mined out of peat bogs, and takes 25 years or more to naturally renew, if they are so preserved, but there is no guarantee that the industrial mining operations that mine peat actually take such care. Peat bogs are a natural carbon sink that hold more carbon than all of the world's forests. Removing the peat doesn't release it into the air unless the peat is burnt, but it does release carbon dioxide into the air as it decomposes. Peat bogs are also habitats, which mining disturbs. On the other hand, coir is a waste product and has no recovery time, as the places that produce it constantly produce more as a byproduct of the coconut harvest.

I'm in California, and I find that coir bricks are not as expensive as people say it is, depending on how much you need. Large bales of peat moss are cheaper, but the 1 cubic foot (compressed) bales of peat moss (which expand to about 2 ft.) are more expensive than the equivalent expanded volume of coir.

If price is your concern, for large volumes, peat moss is cheaper, but you may have to buy oyster shell meal to neutralize the acidity, so factor that in. For small volumes, reconstituted coir bricks are definitely cheaper than peat moss. However, if you factor in that coir decomposes more slowly than peat, that too may tip the scales.

I use coir both indoors and out but am now going to use more soil in its place. I really like coir as a topdressing with char and compost. The coir doesnt get crusty and hard, and with the addition of char and compost doesnt become water repellent.

I would use more peat moss if i saw it for sale in volume. Which is funny as its harvested here in Tasmania but only sold in small bags at rip off prices! Will have to find a bulk supplier...

Also coir holds lots of oxygen even when fully hydrated which is a big plus. The lignin content is also very important as it breaks down so slowly which is a big plus for no-till. I think i am right in stating that most lignin will eventully turn in humus.

Lignin plays a significant role in the carbon cycle, sequestering atmospheric carbon into the living tissues of woody perennial vegetation. Lignin is one of the most slowly decomposing components of dead vegetation, contributing a major fraction of the material that becomes humus as it decomposes. The resulting soil humus, in general, increases the photosynthetic productivity of plant communities growing on a site as the site transitions from disturbed mineral soil through the stages of ecological succession, by providing increased cation exchange capacity in the soil and expanding the capacity of moisture retention between flood and drought conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignin

But why not use 50/50 coir and peat and then get the best of of both worlds!

 

[shmalphy]

Read MGD's thread from the start....not exactly a cover crop in the common sense of the word.....but close. We had a damned good no till after the 'cover crop' seed mix kept the soil active between cannabis plantings.

I use white clover on my no tills indoors. I seed the pots when I plant a clone into it, and they get shaded out in my scrogs and die by the end.

I use the winter rye on my garden beds outdoors, with the white clover.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

shmalphy

Up until 2 years ago or so there was a special Dutch White Clover that was available which had an extremely short profile. Then it just disappeared from the retail market which was too bad. The short height made it a good consideration for container plants.

CC

 

[Gascanastan]

I use white clover on my no tills indoors. I seed the pots when I plant a clone into it, and they get shaded out in my scrogs and die by the end.

I use the winter rye on my garden beds outdoors, with the white clover.

I noticed faster growth from transplant as MM mentioned. It's for real.

Ideally I would like to grow my personal in these type of cover crop no tills. ATM I personally find it just another thing to take care of with a 6k rig that I just am not willing to invest more attention into over other priorities.

But it is awesome.

 

[Microbeman]

One thing to note is that peatmoss is not inert. It does have sequestered nutrients and is very similar to the supposed Alaska Humus products.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

One thing to note is that peatmoss is not inert. It does have sequestered nutrients and is very similar to the supposed Alaska Humus products

That alone is reason enough not to use coir besides the associated problems with the huge variables in coir sources. The premium coir is not compressed and is shipped in bulk from Sri Lanka and Kerala. This comes in two forms - brown & white and it costs about the same as straight bales of Sphagnum peat moss.

The premium coir is geared towards commercial nurseries and it is not viewed as a replacement for Sphagnum across the board by any means. It is used for specific soil requirements for this or that cultivar and is part of a mix for saplings given it's long life in the potting soil mixes.

The bricks were the cause of huge problems and they set the importers back several years. While busting up a brick might a kewl thing to do on a weekend for a few plants, think about the labor and the time required to get enough bricks ready for 1,000 plants in #20 nursery pots.

Delusional

CC

 

[BlueJayWay]

shmalphy

Up until 2 years ago or so there was a special Dutch White Clover that was available which had an extremely short profile. Then it just disappeared from the retail market which was too bad. The short height made it a good consideration for container plants.

CC

Is there more than one species refered to as Dutch white clover? I saw some online searching through cover crops....

*******heres the site, http://www.bountifulgardens.org/products.asp?dept=267

 

[Amber Trich]

i was checking out some peat harvesting pics on this page

looks pretty gross.

i dont think their restoration is that great.. or that biodiversity is reliably restored
plus after mulching "the peatland became a larger source of CO2, despite the increase in production of a re-emerging vegetation layer."

 

[ClackamasCootz]

From Utah State University - A Comparison of Coconut Coir and Sphagnum Peat as Soil-less Media Components for Plant Growth

With photos from the testing......

SUMMARY

These studies show that coconut coir should be used with great caution. Although the Sri Lanka brands performed better than the Mexican brands, no brand performed consistently better than sphagnum peat. Some species tolerate coir better than others. The addition of calcium sulfate (Gypsum) to the media did not have a consistently beneficial effect on growth and in some cases it reduced growth. The best growth in coir media occurred in the Grow Coir® brand. We are continuing these studies to determine the underlying causes of poor plant growth in coir.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Is there more than one species refered to as Dutch white clover? I saw some online searching through cover crops....

*******heres the site, http://www.bountifulgardens.org/products.asp?dept=267

It's back! It's back!

Thanks!

CC

 

[Gascanastan]

Besides the physical differences of peat,coco,forest duff,etc...there seems to be a toss up between environmental sustainability and sourcing material.

I personally KNOW I harvest material in a responsible manner...this is my reality. One of the reasons I first started incorporating topsoil was partly economics and also partly common sense.

My goal now seems to be to acquire multiple types of material for building soil...whatever it may be. The soil I use repetitively is pretty much complete,but I constantly need more material.

For years on end I would dump every pot after a cycle...that shit costs massive bucks for a 10K...upwards of $500 each time to get another cycle going. Talk about environmental impact on a massive scale...you STILL have cannabis growers trashing soil after just one use..HOW FUCKING STUPID is it that the cannabis culture started such an idiotic practice...dark ages man..dark ages. Even way back then I questioned the practice of not recycling soil and I figured it would be best used in the veggies gardens.

Considering the peat/coco debates of past and present....may be the reason I use a peat/coco combo in the base. The coco holds it's structure for a good while...it's just a decent and readily available base ingredient for soil 'structure' (if that's the word I'm looking for) in conjunction w/the other soil building material.
By no means would I continue to add coco past the base mix....and I would never use just coco alone.

Then again a guy could proly grow in ground up tennis shoes w/the 'right' dro-nutes...

 

[unthing]

is dutch white clover referred here meaning that micro clover one? saw that last week in garden section of a hardware store. too bad it was part of a grass mix.

i have low growing swedish white clover seeds myself. strain is sonja if somebody is interested.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

is dutch white clover referred here meaning that micro clover one? saw that last week in garden section of a hardware store. too bad it was part of a grass mix.

unthing

Thank you for jogging my memory! - it was the Micro version of Dutch White Clover that I was thinking of and what you found about it being part of a grass mix is exactly what happened. This seed was pulled from the retail stores and distribution is limited to grass seed mixes.

Tons and tons are shipped to Oregon to be packed with the grass seeds grown in the Willamette Valley. The Micro Clover will sprout and grow first with the 'real grass seed' following up thereby improving the soil and providing early roots to prevent run-off.

Next time you're at a nursery or hardware store look at the label on grass seeds for the homeowner - Stayton, Oregon

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

there seems to be a toss up between environmental sustainability and sourcing material

Gas

Absolutely. The worst group to be pointing fingers at the Canadian Sphagnum peat moss industry has to be the coir industry.

Deforestation, herbicides, mono-cropping, slave labor, etc. is a far different reality than from the images their promotions conjur up - swaying palms on a Tahitian beach, sun-tan oil, etc.

One of the most dishonest industries in horticulture.