CBD or CBDa? THC or THCa?

[danut]

Lately I've learned about the different pathways that the raw compounds take through our bodies in contrast to the cooked form.

In simple terms, the raw form that exists within the plant has a CO2 stuck in it. That CO2 pops off with the application of heat.

Example: THC talks to the CB1 and CB2 receptors. Yet it talks very little to the GPR55 receptor. The raw form talks to the GPR55 receptor but very little to the CB1 or CB2 receptors.

My point in this thread is that many times publications don't differ. They don't identify if they are talking about the raw or cooked form.

Given the different routes the two forms use within our bodies, this is information that is critical. And may have been lost due to sloppy reporting and observations.

They are NOT interchangeable.

 

[hashcraver]

Looking forward to some links on it , Still so much to learn about this plant and how it works within our body.

 

[danut]

An example.

Many published papers talk about THC being the main active compound in Marijuana.

It isn't. THCa is. There is very little THC in the plant material.

When they start out misidentifying the compound present, you have to question the rest of the report.
Impacts or effects are nearly all attributed to the THC. Most of the time, you can't tell which they are talking about.

 

[wolfhoundaddy]

filtering the info

filtering the info

An example.

Many published papers talk about THC being the main active compound in Marijuana.

It isn't. THCa is. There is very little THC in the plant material.

When they start out misidentifying the compound present, you have to question the rest of the report.
Impacts or effects are nearly all attributed to the THC. Most of the time, you can't tell which they are talking about.

I am trying to make topical oils. I am trying to sort through this also. Right now I am processing the root ball with boiling it down with water.
When I do the fan leaf and stalk I use iso. Would I benifit with boiling it first (recover that) then use the iso wash?
Infancy stages of research. If it were declassified we'd get further faster.

 

[danut]

I have heard that the roots have medical benefit.

I know that the highest concentration of the compounds we normally want exists in the crystals within the flowers.

These compounds don't normally dissolve in water.

 

[Smoking Gun]

Danut, where did you learn about this. This is hugely interesting and I would love to do some reading on this topic. At the moment I just don't feel I have enough information to actually offer any constructive conversation.

 

[danut]

Danut, where did you learn about this. This is hugely interesting and I would love to do some reading on this topic. At the moment I just don't feel I have enough information to actually offer any constructive conversation.

A short while ago, I was reading a story about some new wiz bang drug that didn't talk to the CB1 receptor.

They showed the raw form of THC along side this new drug.

Both had that COOH at the same ring location.

They labeled the THCa as THC.

I looked at it and realized all they needed to do was to heat the new drug. Bust off the CO2 and probably have something that would knock your socks off.

Dead at the CB1 receptor until heated.

Then I realized they were testing THCa while calling it THC.

Then I started to see it in pubmed reports ..

No idea how bad the pubmed system is trashed out.

 

[danut]

It's like I starting to question everything we know about THC and CBD.

 

[Smoking Gun]

Would you please post a link to where you were reading this.

 

[danut]

OK .. Stoxx just pointed this one to me:

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bulletin_1997-01-01_1_page008.html

The kind of testing done can't even tell the difference between THC and THCa.

They note that extracts are stable at room temperature.

Yet bud material was unstable. It degraded every year.

It is supposed to degrade with heat and light. Yet this material degraded in a sealed drum kept in a air conditioned vault.

It's a mess.

One study linked there talked about THCa degrading into CBNa. They must have had a different kind of testing machine. One that could tell the difference.

So .. it looks like the degradation goes THCa->CBNa. Not THC->CBN.
Not even THCa->THC->CBN->CBNa .. the CO2 blew away and isn't there to attach to the CBN.

Unanswered: is there something about the plant matter that causes this degradation.

To test which case THCa would have to be isolated and then stored. Then tested with equipment that could tell the difference.

 

[Smoking Gun]

Danut thank you very much for the link. I will have to go through it and try to understand a bit better what you are talking about.

 

[Truthman]

OK .. Stoxx just pointed this one to me:

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bulletin_1997-01-01_1_page008.html

The kind of testing done can't even tell the difference between THC and THCa.

They note that extracts are stable at room temperature.

Yet bud material was unstable. It degraded every year.

It is supposed to degrade with heat and light. Yet this material degraded in a sealed drum kept in a air conditioned vault.

It's a mess.

One study linked there talked about THCa degrading into CBNa. They must have had a different kind of testing machine. One that could tell the difference.

So .. it looks like the degradation goes THCa->CBNa. Not THC->CBN.
Not even THCa->THC->CBN->CBNa .. the CO2 blew away and isn't there to attach to the CBN.

Unanswered: is there something about the plant matter that causes this degradation.

To test which case THCa would have to be isolated and then stored. Then tested with equipment that could tell the difference.

It is because of the enzymes, oxygen, and moisture.

When you store bud, most of the time there will always be some type of moisture in the plant fibers, and it will be slowly released overtime. These droplets will attach to the surface of the trichome where the enzymes reside, and activate it allowing it to degrade the thca into cbna, as long as there is oxygen in the environment. This probably doesn't happen while the plant is growing because it can rebuild what was lost as it has constant food to use for energy, but this doesn't happen when it is harvested as no food is around to be used for energy so the plant just starts degrading and cbn is a form of this.

The extracts won't do this because chances are they will either be bone dry so no moisture will effect the enzyme, and they tend to be dense(hash) so oxygen can't get in it so easily. Degradation can still happen overtime if the hash is left out in the open in a humid environment. If it is in a liquid, oxygen can't get into it easily also as long as it is kept closed, and cool, so no degradation happens as well, unless you have a clear bottle that allows light to get in.

I wan to hear more about Gpr55 receptors you mentioned.

 

[medman225]

I smoked som cannatonic recently(a high cbd strain from mr nice and another company)
It was divineeeeeeeeeeeeee....truly psychedilc and held its own with alota stuff out there....
and now for the startling lab test results
It was like 7%thc and 6.7%cbd and another cbd was like.01
Point being ever since i smoked that shit im lookin at things totally differently....
For me it blew a few dank popular cali kushes that tested at 18%thc and more completely outta the water
tho all those lab tested cali kushes only had max like. 03 cbd
made me really rethink things

 

[danut]

I want to hear more about Gpr55 receptors you mentioned.

It's called the orphan receptor. Known to interact only slightly with THC and CBD.

What is being noticed now is that the raw form, THCa, interacts very strongly with that orphan receptor, GPR55. While at the same time the interaction with the CB1 and CB2 receptors is greatly reduced.

The raw form goes around the "get high" receptor, CB1.

The raw form, THCa, is doing something(s) different than the cooked form, THC, is.

With much less impact on the CB1 receptor, you can reach very large doses of THC than you could otherwise. With RSO the objective is to get the patient to a dose of 1 gram or more ASAP.
With something like bubble hash, you can feed the new patient a couple grams per day from the start. Someone that is completely new to cannabis can be consuming grams and still function.

Then the way it works through the body is different. So different that current urine THC screening doesn't turn positive. Rather I should say the positive for THC is very light. As if from second hand smoke.

From top to bottom, the raw form (THCa) looks and acts like a completely different compound than the cooked form (THC).

 

[danut]

It is because of the enzymes, oxygen, and moisture.

I'm thinking something like that also.

Current wisdom says it's UV and heat. Then they store it dark and cool to prove it. WTF????

enzymes .. That makes sense. As time is a factor in the process.

Adding heat doesn't seem to speed up the process ..

Moisture .. THAT has been a haunting thought for a few years now. That is something that Simpson does that is different than most in his extraction process. He adds a few drops of water at the end. I have two samples that I collected today. Both from the same collection of resin. This is supposed to be a cannatonic strain with about a 1:1 ratio of THC:CBD. I took out a couple grams of the oil for the additional step. Added a couple of drops of RO water to the hot oil. (~230F) Cooked it until all the water was gone. I'll post the tests when I get the results.

So that would be the combination of water and heat.

Oxygen. Could be tested by storing bud material in Nitrogen. The oxygen may be supplied by the plant material as it ages.

 

[danut]

There is one thing that seems commonly noticed with the raw form.

Energy.

The raw form seems to deliver an increase of energy.

 

[danut]

About testing.

Any time heat is applied to the raw form, a CO2 pops off. It becomes the cooked form, THC.

GC (gas chromatography) sends materials through a very thin tube. Like hair sized kind of thin. The sample is heated at the start of the tube. The smaller the molecule, the faster it travels down the tube. Because it involves heat, any THCa is converted into THC near the start of the tube.

Both forms are represented by the same spike on the graph. The equipment, normally, can't tell one from the other.

 

[Truthman]

There is one thing that seems commonly noticed with the raw form.

Energy.

The raw form seems to deliver an increase of energy.

This could be due to the fact that thc seems to give energy when it is taken in small amounts, and more relaxing when in large amounts, at least for me, and some others I know. If you take it raw with out the right foods to make it activated, very little thc-a will convert to thc so it will give energy instead of a strong, high feeling.

Also, cannabis doesn't need to be heated to have decarboxylation happen. All you need is b6 rich food taken along with it(b6 causes release of the carboxylic group from the acid) as well as whole fatty foods rich in monounsaturated fat to allow the thc to attach, and go throughout the body through the lymphatic system. Avocado, nuts/seeds, and leafy green vegetables are perfect for this. I also have a feeling the cannabinoids, thc included, can go to the skeletal muscles if polyunsaturated fat is present in the food also which it will be if taken with the foods I mentioned, and the cannabinoids can help keep the muscles healthy.

If you try this for yourself remember to drink some liquid with the food as b6 is water soluble, and needs moisture to do it's job efficiently. Taking some psyllium husk right after eating the cannabis with your food, will allow the b6 to do it's job efficiently because it turns gel like when water is in it's' presence. which means it will keep water consistently within the food so the b6 can decarboxylate most, if not all of the thc-a, which is also water soluble. B6 defiency is common in the U.S., which is probably why people don't feel the effects of raw cannabis. I think this is because dried beans, leafy vegetables, and nuts/seeds or avocados are low in our diets. These foods keep b6 consistently in the bloodstream as they are rich in fiber. If you take a pill, being that b6 is water soluble it will be excreted within two hours of taking it. The same for all water soluble vitamins.

I see cannabis as an herb that is made to be a part of your meal, and all the food eaten enhances each others effects. We tend to see herb as something that is used by itself, but I don't think for positive health effects it should be used like this.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/complementary-medicine/200904/vitamin-b6-deficiency-common-in-us
Vitamin B6 Deficiency Common in U.S.

Research at Tufts University has suggested that deficient vitamin B6 levels are common in the USA, and could be reduced via supplementation.

The results come from the NHANES data base, which is one of the largest epidemiological studies to evaluate overall nutrition, as well as B6 levels.

 

[madscientist81]

Just a few corrections. THC (not THCA) is an agonist for the GPR55 receptor, CBD is an antagonist at GPR55. THCA does not to my knowledge bind to GPR55.

A good review article that covers this is-

Non-psychotropic plant cannabinoids:New therapeutic opportunities from an ancient herb

http://www.advancedholistichealth.org/PDF_Files/cannbiniods%20therapeutic%20chart%20article.pdf

There is also a thread from a few months back where we discussed various properties of neutral and acidic cannabinoids, including some of the things in this thread. I will post the link below...

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=239876

 

[madscientist81]

This could be due to the fact that thc seems to give energy when it is taken in small amounts, and more relaxing when in large amounts, at least for me, and some others I know. If you take it raw with out the right foods to make it activated, very little thc-a will convert to thc so it will give energy instead of a strong, high feeling.

Also, cannabis doesn't need to be heated to have decarboxylation happen. All you need is b6 rich food taken along with it(b6 causes release of the carboxylic group from the acid) as well as whole fatty foods rich in monounsaturated fat to allow the thc to attach, and go throughout the body through the lymphatic system. Avocado, nuts/seeds, and leafy green vegetables are perfect for this. I also have a feeling the cannabinoids, thc included, can go to the skeletal muscles if polyunsaturated fat is present in the food also which it will be if taken with the foods I mentioned, and the cannabinoids can help keep the muscles healthy.

If you try this for yourself remember to drink some liquid with the food as b6 is water soluble, and needs moisture to do it's job efficiently. Taking some psyllium husk right after eating the cannabis with your food, will allow the b6 to do it's job efficiently because it turns gel like when water is in it's' presence. which means it will keep water consistently within the food so the b6 can decarboxylate most, if not all of the thc-a, which is also water soluble. B6 defiency is common in the U.S., which is probably why people don't feel the effects of raw cannabis. I think this is because dried beans, leafy vegetables, and nuts/seeds or avocados are low in our diets. These foods keep b6 consistently in the bloodstream as they are rich in fiber. If you take a pill, being that b6 is water soluble it will be excreted within two hours of taking it. The same for all water soluble vitamins.

I see cannabis as an herb that is made to be a part of your meal, and all the food eaten enhances each others effects. We tend to see herb as something that is used by itself, but I don't think for positive health effects it should be used like this.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/complementary-medicine/200904/vitamin-b6-deficiency-common-in-us
Vitamin B6 Deficiency Common in U.S.

Research at Tufts University has suggested that deficient vitamin B6 levels are common in the USA, and could be reduced via supplementation.

The results come from the NHANES data base, which is one of the largest epidemiological studies to evaluate overall nutrition, as well as B6 levels.

Do you happen to have any sources to support the claim that taking B6 helps the body decarboxylate the cannabinoids?