why is it bad to breed with fem seeds

[growhi]

you havn't used common sense! breeding full stop is unnatural you select etc, you move it to your goals.. otherwise what is the point?

nature selects though does it not ? ..................... hence the expression natural selection

 

[stickshift]

nature selects though does it not ? ..................... hence the expression natural selection

For certain things yes, but even then it's adaptive, it's still to suit the niche it's in.

 

[growhi]

For certain things yes, but even then it's adaptive, it's still to suit the niche it's in.

but in a way selection is nature, only on fast forward , its selecting the strongest and best ................. just like nature does but only super fast

when you start mixing chemicals in to alter a plants sex ..................... thats not so natural ............... its a tool of course but i think really it should be discouraged were possible !

if you grow out allot of seed like i do, you quickly come to the conclusion that fem seeds have less vigour , less diversity of pheno's , and to add insult you injuring you still get males anyway lol

 

[stickshift]

but in a way selection is nature, only on fast forward , its selecting the strongest and best ................. just like nature does but only super fast

when you start mixing chemicals in to alter a plants sex ..................... thats not so natural ............... its a tool of course but i think really it should be discouraged were possible !

if you grow out allot of seed like i do, you quickly come to the conclusion that fem seeds have less vigour , less diversity of pheno's , and to add insult you injuring you still get males anyway lol

Is it always selection of the best? I don't think so myself. I could agree that natural selection selects the best for that given enviroment at that given time. again down to numbers, lets apply it to plants, lets say for years there was abundant water and no drought so a longer season for flowering and hence the late flowerers are preferred, then one season there is a drought suddenly the early flowerers are in, they'll be a shift in dynamics towards earlier flowering types.

They AREN'T males, A Y Chromosome just not just spring up by itself.. plants can and do have chemicals within them that do the very thing you are fearing. As to the last part I sprout plenty of seed I have seen no difference in vigour from F7 seedlots of M/F mating to F7 seedlots of F/F mating. Most of the fem seed out there are more than likely just S1's or even S2's of a cut they have, When it comes to fem seeds again there's reason for a lower variation rate, plant numbers!! just because some out there do not care and have abused the tech it does not make it the techs fault.

 

[growhi]

Is it always selection of the best? I don't think so myself. I could agree that natural selection selects the best for that given enviroment at that given time. again down to numbers, lets apply it to plants, lets say for years there was abundant water and no drought so a longer season for flowering and hence the late flowerers are preferred, then one season there is a drought suddenly the late flowerers are in, they'll be a shift in dynamics towards earlier flowering types.

They AREN'T males, A Y Chromosome just not just spring up by itself.. plants can and do have chemicals within them that do the very thing you are fearing. As to the last part I sprout plenty of seed I have seen no difference in vigour from F7 seedlots of M/F mating to F7 seedlots of F/F mating. Most of the fem seed out there are more than likely just S1's or even S2's of a cut they have, When it comes to fem seeds again there's reason for a lower variation rate, plant numbers!! just because some out there do not care and have abused the tech it does not make it the techs fault.

i think your just splitting hairs now lol ................... selection is, by its very essence a extension of nature its self ,,,,,,,,,,,, its simply selecting the best for future generations !

and as i said in the earlier posts for all intensive purpose's they are males ? .................. they only produce pollen ! and dont produce any smokeable bud !...... so its a male minus a chromosome .............. its usless for smokeing !

there is a old saying ' if it looks like a duck , walks like a duck , whacks like a duck .............. its a duck '

a female that produces no bud to smoke , is like a male that produces no pollen ............... useless lol

and we will have to agree to disagree , on the vigour and diversity of female seeds but i pop 30 plus seeds every few months so its not like im popping a few seeds here and there .............. my body of evidence is pretty large

 

[Hempe]

thanks tom, yeah ive heard the purple wreck throws nana's
not sure on the chem though, i have backups for both in my breeding projects in the form of regular seeds from deep purple tga and regular blood orange OG x heri

im just working to find the most grape plant out of the two and if my chem fails(have heard bad germ rates) ill be using the blood orange og x heri to complete my cross, i really appreciate the feedback. and i could actually read your post.

 

[medmaker420]

I think my issue with using fems when pollen chucking is not knowing HOW it became female. I suppose if I knew the breeding methods used I would be ok with it.

Whatever works for you works for you, it aint my garden.

 

[midsummer]

i see no harm in using a fem plant in breeding. selection is everything.

could any of the naysayers explain to me, what is the difference between using an outstanding female from fem seeds, and using an outstanding female from regular seeds in a cross? (to a male plant)

how will the progeny differ?

VG

Werd

 

[idiit]

AND.

it's important to approach a problem from a variety of methods. the ppl doing fems are straightforward about it. if the fem lines screw up for some reason we can go back to the regular seed line and start our work over again.

perhaps there is some fear factor that all breeders will drop regular seed lines and some day in the future there will be no regular seed lines to work with.

the fem method offers significant advantages especially with desirable recessive attributes. draw up a comparative advantage list. one side lists the advantages of fems and the other side lists the disadvantages of fems. run both routes if you choose.

how anyone can have a problem with someone else working with fem techniques is beyond me. there are millions of us in the canna-community and diversity is one of our greatest strengths.

some members may choose to run straight fems. some members may to choose to stick with straight regular seed runs. some members may chose to work both in parallel.

this is not an either/or issue;this is an and issue.

 

[Hammerhead]

I have breed some of my finest cannabis with S1 seeds.... You just need to make sure the recessive trait naners or hermies dont show. If they do then you need to work it more to get it out as much as possible... My cross of GDP X Querkle had some naners but I was able to work that out of the line I have not seen any ot herd any report of any... I will use S1 seeds depending on who made them, what Genotype they are and how stable they are within large#'s. When I first started my crosses I had a very small majority of plants that exhibited highly itersexed traits...Out of 50+ plants I got 3 that had naners. None of them produced seeds...I will continue to work my line until i'm satisfied that everything that could be done has been done..

 

[Hempe]

thanks for the tip, i appreciate the more experienced voices in here, I will proceed with caution and im glad a fellow grapehead chimed in. Grapes are how i choose to enjoy my indica. I will be selecting a nice slow short grape pheno and cross it with an autoflowering mango called mini mango. Wish me luck on achieving fast flowering tropical grapey goodness! for goodness sake!

 

[GMT]

Natural selection is an unfortunate term to have got into the public consciousness. It's not that nature selects, it's what survives in a particular environment. Nature doesn't make a choice. Nor is what survives best, necessarily the fittest or best, merely the most suited for the environment. Also a species doesn't adapt to its environment over time, but the random mutations that create an advantage get passed on, and those that don't have those advantages pass on their genes less frequently. This is a very different situation than nature selecting the best plants. Man selects according to his tastes. His tastes may be beneficial or harmful to the potential of the species to survive and do well in competition with wild plants. All we can say is that when man selects, those genes that man has selected will be present in greater numbers in following generations. This is why seeds that are feminised naturally, ie with no use of chemicals to force them to show intersexed traits, are more likely to show intersexed traits in future generations than those who do require chemicals to show intersexed traits. If stressing a plant, a la Soma's method, is enough to get the trait to show, then the offspring is also likely to show the trait if stressed, and sometimes if not stressed. If the plants genes are so undesirable as to allow a female (genetically speaking) to talk walk and look like a male, this alone does not make it male, and certainly doesn't make it desirable as a parent for future generations. Males do not show in female only lines, only undesirable females. Other female only lines will be full of desirable females. To use a female in a breeding program should have 1 quality, to pass on desirable genes to the future generation. It doesn't matter how it was created, it matters what's going to be passed on. If that is the tendency to show the flowers of both sexes, its a bad one to use, if its the tendency to show only male flowers, its a terrible one to use, but if it requires chemicals to force it to show any male traits, then and only then, can the other traits be looked at when making the selection on whether to use it or not.

 

[Sagarmatha]

High Hempe,

its been my experience that using hermaphodite males will create females and more hermphodites. before the feminized phenomenon we would never use pollen from a herm plant. as for using feminized females for breeding you might want to do it only if you cannot buy some regular beans or get some female clones from another grower. these manipulated feminized females are not so stable to start with and many environmental elements can trigger hermaphotism. one of the best reasons for using regular females in the chance that you will get a pheno that has not been expressed in previous seedings and come up with a unique smell, taste or form. we also noticed that choosing males and crossing them with an array of females, then monitoring the outgrows to select the best combination proved to be one of the best methods for producing great seeds. it takes alot of space and time to do it properly. but if you cant get new seeds or plants and you need a crop for next year, do what ya gotta do. best o luck

tony

 

[Gardens Keeper]

Wow, really good to see you around Sagarmatha. Thank you for posting that, very true.

 

[74G]

Hey Tony good to here from you ;-)

we met at the spannabis and it was long time wanna meet you... we talked about weed and snow ;-) hope you remember...

PEACE

 

[marmarb]

I've got c99bxl that I selfed now growing thoes out but I want to take my ogchem keeper female and self it as well I don't like re buying strains so that's the reason for welding of keepers but I wanna allow my ogchem keeper while selfing to also hit my c99s1 would there be a issue with that so would be ogchem(f)xc99s1 I'm also gonna let it hit acouple different strains in the meantime

 

[Alfred]

Natural selection is an unfortunate term to have got into the public consciousness. It's not that nature selects, it's what survives in a particular environment. Nature doesn't make a choice. Nor is what survives best, necessarily the fittest or best, merely the most suited for the environment. Also a species doesn't adapt to its environment over time, but the random mutations that create an advantage get passed on, and those that don't have those advantages pass on their genes less frequently. This is a very different situation than nature selecting the best plants. Man selects according to his tastes. His tastes may be beneficial or harmful to the potential of the species to survive and do well in competition with wild plants. All we can say is that when man selects, those genes that man has selected will be present in greater numbers in following generations. This is why seeds that are feminised naturally, ie with no use of chemicals to force them to show intersexed traits, are more likely to show intersexed traits in future generations than those who do require chemicals to show intersexed traits. If stressing a plant, a la Soma's method, is enough to get the trait to show, then the offspring is also likely to show the trait if stressed, and sometimes if not stressed. If the plants genes are so undesirable as to allow a female (genetically speaking) to talk walk and look like a male, this alone does not make it male, and certainly doesn't make it desirable as a parent for future generations. Males do not show in female only lines, only undesirable females. Other female only lines will be full of desirable females. To use a female in a breeding program should have 1 quality, to pass on desirable genes to the future generation. It doesn't matter how it was created, it matters what's going to be passed on. If that is the tendency to show the flowers of both sexes, its a bad one to use, if its the tendency to show only male flowers, its a terrible one to use, but if it requires chemicals to force it to show any male traits, then and only then, can the other traits be looked at when making the selection on whether to use it or not.

Very eloquently explained GMT.

 

[Hammerhead]

I have been following the S1 line I used since I herd about them 3+years ago..These where worked or a few years before it was released and it was not released as a fem line because of the males that are being found.. I know of 4 males that have been found in this s1 line.. All never showed female parts only male parts nay naners regular males flowers where on the male I found.. I did not use this Pollen on any of my crosses. This is a project that will take allot of my time and dont have that right now so its stored for later use....I did take the best female out of 50+ plants and used my Querkle studs pollen on her to get my first cross of PF.. I then took another 50 an hit the best female from that lot with the same querkle male. I'm now doing a smaller lot as I was a bit lost the last month or so. Was not a good time for me anyway.. My next effort will be bx2. All this requires allot of time and patience...when I get some feedback from the PF bx1 that are in flower now it will help me decide if I need to go to bx2 or farther..

I dont know how some of you guys do it.. The amount of work and time involved is astonishing. This 1 cross has taken me over a year to get to where i'm at..

I have not even started the work for my other cross of GDP X Querkle...I need to focus 1 at a time...I will make sure ea project is ready before I start work on another...

I hope I didn't get to far of topic...

 

[Tom Hill]

Natural selection is an unfortunate term to have got into the public consciousness. It's not that nature selects, it's what survives in a particular environment. Nature doesn't make a choice. Nor is what survives best, necessarily the fittest or best, merely the most suited for the environment. Also a species doesn't adapt to its environment over time, but the random mutations that create an advantage get passed on, and those that don't have those advantages pass on their genes less frequently. This is a very different situation than nature selecting the best plants. Man selects according to his tastes. His tastes may be beneficial or harmful to the potential of the species to survive and do well in competition with wild plants. All we can say is that when man selects, those genes that man has selected will be present in greater numbers in following generations. This is why seeds that are feminised naturally, ie with no use of chemicals to force them to show intersexed traits, are more likely to show intersexed traits in future generations than those who do require chemicals to show intersexed traits. If stressing a plant, a la Soma's method, is enough to get the trait to show, then the offspring is also likely to show the trait if stressed, and sometimes if not stressed. If the plants genes are so undesirable as to allow a female (genetically speaking) to talk walk and look like a male, this alone does not make it male, and certainly doesn't make it desirable as a parent for future generations. Males do not show in female only lines, only undesirable females. Other female only lines will be full of desirable females. To use a female in a breeding program should have 1 quality, to pass on desirable genes to the future generation. It doesn't matter how it was created, it matters what's going to be passed on. If that is the tendency to show the flowers of both sexes, its a bad one to use, if its the tendency to show only male flowers, its a terrible one to use, but if it requires chemicals to force it to show any male traits, then and only then, can the other traits be looked at when making the selection on whether to use it or not.

If that is the tendency to show the flowers of both sexes, its a bad one to use, if its the tendency to show only male flowers, its a terrible one to use

^^^^

We are not so sure about that (?)
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4961462&postcount=45
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4971912&postcount=68
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5338731&postcount=204

(otherwise I agree an outstanding post comrade!)

My thought is that the issue is very likely too complex, so that it can not be treated with such a mendelian phenotypical view. IE, if anybody thinks, and many do, that it is acceptable to pass up testing to the very best parent in the field, simply because it fails these simple phenotypical stressor tests (re sexual expression), this may be very likey a mistake, imo.

Listening to indoor growers speak of what is naturaly correct is like listening to Romney speak of family values, JFC, the nerve of it all.

Before anybody can enter into these particularity simpleton mendelian theories, they'll need to address the empirical data on the table first.

I would submit that the above dispersion of sexuality ratios are every bit as good and better than anybody's who's in our history has poddy-mouthed it from mendel's chair.

Ie, just maybe, you guys saying never to breed with hermies, are FULL OF SHIT! Quit trying to squeeze quantitative genetics inside of those narrow mendelian minds - it simply doesn't wash, sirs. -T

 

[growhi]

Ie, just maybe, you guys saying never to breed with hermies, are FULL OF SHIT! Quit trying to squeeze quantitative genetics inside of those narrow mendelian minds - it simply doesn't wash, sirs. -T

but wouldn't that be one of a breeders prerequisites ? wouldn't a good breeder instantly disregard a female if its hermieing everywhere lol