Tutorial Organics for Beginners

[StrapAssassin42]

Thanks h.h., i would love to use the existing soil but i grow in pretty swampy areas and the soil is straight muck...not other way to describe it. Its great for moisture and the wicking effect you refered to but cant put the girls right in it.

Do water retention polymers have any place in organics? I feel like its a dumb question but for outdoors i would be remiss not to ask.

thanks again!

 

[Mr Jay]

There are organic corn based water retainers, but the other ones are toxic.

 

[mad librettist]

Do water retention polymers have any place in organics? I feel like its a dumb question but for outdoors i would be remiss not to ask.

we call it clay! by adding clay to a mix, you do everything the polymers do and more

 

[StrapAssassin42]

we call it clay! by adding clay to a mix, you do everything the polymers do and more

I just realized i probably won't need to add anything to retain water in a peat based mix....true??

 

[grapeman]

we call it clay! by adding clay to a mix, you do everything the polymers do and more

Hmmm no, not really. While clay may retain a bit more water it also impedes water penetration. The polymers not only hold more water but they will not prevent water flow through the soil.

I prefer to use neither.

 

[xmobotx]

I just realized i probably won't need to add anything to retain water in a peat based mix....true??

"need to" not so much; "can" maybe should

Hmmm no, not really. While clay may retain a bit more water it also impedes water penetration. The polymers not only hold more water but they will not prevent water flow through the soil.

I prefer to use neither.

just small quantites i.e using mineral/clay type amendments and/or local soil = just some so it's there

or; even pottery fragments a'la terra preta = habitat

 

[mad librettist]

that's bullshit grapeman.


organic newbies, here is a video on adding clay to a mix from people who know what they are talking about. watch it and decide for yourself. The other videos offered on that site are also very good for learning the basics of soil mixes.

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/video/764


clay in the mix at the proper rate (5% is a good number) raises CEC (ability to hold nutrients) and reduces water needs. it does not reduce "penetration", whatever that is. (I think he maybe meant tortuosity, but in any case it doesn't matter or change things)

Also if you have some clay in the mix, it helps with "wetting up" if the medium becomes too dry, and helsp distribute the water evenly throughout the medium. Basically the opposite of what has been erroneously claimed here - clay in a mix is a natural and perpetual wetting agent.


clay won't lose its properties over time, and is completely acceptable in an organic grow.


on top of all that goodness from 5% loose clay in your mix, you can get further benefits of clay by replacing your perlite with calcined clay products like turface. You get even better CEC and water absorption because it is still clay, even as you loosen and aerate the mix just like perlite would.

 

[StrapAssassin42]

Nice...thanks mad....if im using LC's mix 1 i can exchange the perlite 100% for the calcined clay to get better water retention qualities? maybe go half and half? half perlite/ half turface?

thanks again

 

[mad librettist]

you can replace the perlite completely with it


all depends on your needs. for instance if you need to lift a large pot often perlite can be easier

 

[juskin]

I'm doing recipe 3, I'm in veg, do I add liquid karma an molasses for the 24 hour period of aeration, or can I add it before I feed? Also does water temp affect it? And lastly is it ok to let the mix aerate for 48 hours?

 

[h.h.]

http://www.jbhs.ccs.k12.nc.us/Facultyandstaff/withers/Supplemental%20Notes%20For%20APES/cation%20exchange%20capacity.pdf

Calcined clay, diatomaceousearth, and zeolite/clinoptilolite are sometimes added to sand-based
fields to increase CEC. The CEC of these materials are variable but typical values are in the range of
25 meq/100 g for calcined clay, 50 meq/100g for diatomaceous earth, and 100 meq/100g for
zeolite/clinoptilolite. Whether or not these amendments provide more advantages than peat or organic
matter is still a question that needs to be answered.

So we screen out the DE and add clay which has a lower CEC. For the sake of diversity, I get it, otherwise I'm not sure I do.

 

[mad librettist]

Screening DE has to do with particle size and drainage, not CEC.


Using both DE qnd clay helps with diversity. Each material has properties beyond CEC.


The reason I go on about screening DE is that people are expecting it to work as a perlite replacement.

 

[grapeman]

that's bullshit grapeman.


organic newbies, here is a video on adding clay to a mix from people who know what they are talking about. watch it and decide for yourself. The other videos offered on that site are also very good for learning the basics of soil mixes.

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/video/764


clay in the mix at the proper rate (5% is a good number)

Always glad to hear that I don't know what I'm talking about.

On the other hand, I'm happy you clarified that clay should be used in "trace" amounts.

 

[BurnOne]

^^^ I don't think this belongs in a "beginner's" thread.
Burn1

 

[mad librettist]

respect B1, but I really think 5% clay in all these recipes would help the beginners out. it makes the margin for error greater on all the important aspects like watering and fertility. we do go ahead and recommend 20% compost/ewc, so it's not a stretch to also recommend 5% clay for those who want to put in a bit more work now to relax later

Turface and calcined DE deserve mention here too, as easy to use 1:1 alternatives to perlite in the recipes found here. for some, it´s actually easier to source as well

 

[juskin]

For recipe three how long into flower should I switch to the flowering recipe? Right from week 1 or a few weeks in?

 

[Cort]

is kelp meal a liquid or a solid like bone meal and blood meal. And if i was to use the bone blood and kelp meal recipe for ferts could i use dry bone and blood meal and still mix that with a liquid kelp meal or do they all need to be either dried or liquids? I cant seem to find kelp meal anywhere. are there any alternatives to kelp meal? thanks

 

[IE2KS_KUSH]

Go to Google type in kelp meal choose and buy it...not difficult nor risky what's the big deal? Growing weed is way harder than finding kelp meal. Got a Lowe's? Its widely available. Gl

 

[niceeven]

There is no kelp meal at the garden centres near you? Look on line and locate the nearest source. Kelp meal is granulated or powdered brother. Kelp extract would be liquid. You can do what works best for you but it would be better to mix in dry ingredients as it would be a tad harder to gauge how much kelp extract to add. Also, kelp extract would be pretty much flushed away with the next watering as the dry stuf needs to break down, therefore it goes further in blends. Extracts tend to be used for foliar applications a bit more. Not just foliar of course but I tend to think it works great that way. Hope that helps a little.

 

[pinecone]

is kelp meal a liquid or a solid like bone meal and blood meal. And if i was to use the bone blood and kelp meal recipe for ferts could i use dry bone and blood meal and still mix that with a liquid kelp meal or do they all need to be either dried or liquids? I cant seem to find kelp meal anywhere. are there any alternatives to kelp meal? thanks

Kelp meal is rinsed and dried kelp which is then ground up or cut up. It should look and smell like dehydrated chopped up seaweed.

Kelp extract can be purchased as a liquid or as a dry powder which is soluble in water. It is more expensive than kelp meal.

Where I am they have kelp meal at some garden stores, hydro stores, and, if you want a 50lb bag, at the farm stores (it is used as animal feed). Though not ideal, you can also buy kelp meal online.

Pine